1.1:1 or 1.0:1

[Watcher 0]

And in our next update we will be working on adding marcus to the website and getting him in the photo, the one taken was slightly impromptu.
Jonathan
D-24876
Jonathan@gtinviscid.net

[FallinWoman 1]

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. But i guess its the general feelings of the dropzone you jump at, the views they take and if they are going to tell you to jump something alittle big and not teach you to fly or give you something smaller and teach you how to fly a canopy

Please don't tell me you think these are the only two options out there...I jump at a dropzone that encourages low-timers to jump larger canopies (1.0-1.1) and then the instructors continuously help you learn to fly it. That way you build a set of skills that you an bring to a more aggressive canopy when the time is right. I would hate to learn how to fly a canopy on a highly loaded ellipitcal that is unforgiving to the mistakes that I shall surely make!
Anne

[quade 4]

Ok, so just to prove what an incredibly small world skydiving is . . .
Check THIS out.
David is one of my team mates this year.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[Watcher 0]

The really cool thing is that I know Jamie and Brian also. Jamie was my coach a year ago in the tunnel, Brian was takeing the other 3 divers with us, David was working with another group, thats where i was able to aquire my suit. In fact i should see Jamie this weekend at the GSL meet. Thats quite a team you have there, i assume they are planning on competeing in open this year?
Jonathan
D-24687
Jonathan@gtinviscid.com

[Watcher 0]

well i was not refering to a Stiletto at 1.4:1 as a first canopy, But i do think that a Safire, Sabre2, or even a Stiletto Cobalt, or nitron loaded at 1.0-1.3:1 could easily be taught as a first canopy instead of giving someone loading at .7, .8 or .9 where the canopy is flying you and on a windy day you are going backwards. Now there is one thing i disagree with in your statement and that is the elliptical part. Ellipticals are more efficient wings, and are known to have alot more flare in general, so in essence i would think an elliptical is going to be more forgiving than a square because there is more potential energy to save your ass if your screw up. After flying them i do not think that anyone cannot fly them if you are taught on an elliptical then you wont have a problem with a canopy of such performance when you are off student status.
Jonathan

[FallinWoman 1]

if ellipticals are more forgiving, then why doesn't every dropzone in the world use them for student mains?
Anne

[quade 4]

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. . . planning on competeing in open this year?

Oh yeah. Tell Jaimie "quade says hi" and watch her face.
http://futurecam.com

[kallend 2,148]

<<Anne>>>
"Squares are too dangerous, have to put students and newbies out on rounds until they have 100 jumps."
and other such reasons.

[skycat 0]

Well one reason I'm almost positive they don't use ellipticals is the opening characteristics. I think students opening unstable or slightly unstable or with just a shoulder dropped is more of the norm than not. I'm sure the more forgiving nature of the square in line twist alone makes it a better choice for students. I haven't had line twists on a semi-elliptical so I can't comment on them, but having had them on an elliptical even at a light wingloading it wasn't a docile ride.

[polarbear 1]

I would agree that ellipticals are more efficient and give the pilot more options, allowing him/her to fly their way out of trouble. However, they require correct inputs. The term "Forgiveness" generally means how hard the canopy will punish you for making incorrect control inputs. According to this definition, ellipticals are not more forgiving. An example would be you come in to land on a Sabre and flare an inch lower with one side. You go into a slight turn, but with a little balance you manage to stay on your feet and run it out. On a Stiletto, flaring an inch lower on one side will put you into a much hader turn, and while it may not injure you, you will have a harder time making a graceful landing. Thus it did not forgive your incorrect flare input as well. Now, if you realized that you had flared unevenly and made correct control inputs to fix it, the more efficient Stiletto should give you a better chance of getting straight before having to touch down.
There are some people who have a better "feel" for how to fly more demanding canopies; they can do alright with more responsive nylon with lower jump numbers. Many can't. Generally speaking, I think it is a good idea for someone to learn how to fly a square or semi-elliptical zp at somewhere between 1.0-1.2 before flying an elliptical; just my $.02

[Watcher 0]

Well first let me define Elliptical as not square, therefor semi elliptical, tapers, fully elliptical all fall into the same category. Now as for student mains, SDC has used Safires and sabre2s, Skydive Monroe uses Safires. Some DZ just have older mantas that are simply made square and have not bothered to move away from them. PDs student canopies are slightly tapered, My DZ uses Omega's as the rental gear which is elliptical. For the most part its harder to find anything new made square anymore. Agian by my deffinition of what elliptical is. As for my a student in AFF or something is not useing stiletto's, because students tend to flare too high alot, so the mantas just slow down, but a stiletto goes back up, so flare at 20 ft, now you have a 30ft drop, but after about 10 jumps a jumper normally figures it out and that extra lift is very very beneficial. As for a line twist issue, thats another possibilty, line twist on a stiletto tends to drop altitude faster than a manta, but its also dependent on line type also. Spectra is more prone to not fly straight in line twist because the friction between the lines keeps one side down, but if the canopy is lined hma, the lines will slip through each other and the canopy flies straight. But i do think that the opening characteristics is more of a reason why "ellipticals" are not being used as opposed to squares in AFF but at a time when you have demostrated you can pull stable, then an "elliptical" be it a Sabre2, safire, fusion, nitron, cobalt can be landed easier as it provides more lift on a flare possibly saving you from impacting the ground.
Just an opinion though. The Aerodynamics and first hand expirence make sense, but common practice is common practice.
Jonathan

[DanG 1]

I agree that one of the most common mistakes students make on landing is flaring too high. It can certainly be argued that an 'eliptical' canopy will be more forgiving in this case than a 'square'.
However, it has been my (limited) experience that the most common mistake students make on landing is uneven flaring. It is almost ubiqitous. Even relatively experienced jumpers make this mistake every day. In that case, even a lightly loading eliptical is going to turn into the ground much faster than a similarly loaded square.
I'd also like to reply to your post about the two choices being 1) giving people big canopies and not teaching them how to fly, and 2) giving them small canopies and teaching them. I submit that there are two other options, both of which happen, and only one of which is good. That is, giving people big canopies AND teaching them how to fly. To quote Kevin Gibson's Safety Day presentation, "You Are Already Flying a High Performance Canopy". You don't need to go small to learn to fly. Instead the opposite is true. Learn to fly big, than go small intelligently.
(The other option, which seems to be the trend among 100 jump wonders, is to get a small canopy and not learn how to fly it. Not good.)
- Dan G

[Hooknswoop 19]

A first jump student under a Stilletto loaded at 1.3:1 is a recipe for disaster.
I disagree that an elliptical is more likely to spin w/ Spectra then HMA. I recently chopped a Stilletto 97 that was spinning, and the links were even. So line type wouldn't have mattered a bit. Spectra is slippery and you can harness shift w/ line twists and the lines will slide across each other to stop a spin.
Safire's and Sabre2's, even Omega's and Spectres would make good student canopies (I have used Sabres as student canopies), if the student is trained correctly (a few tandems w/ intensive canopy control instruction under the tandems). The canopy needs to be able to sink after a high flare and not injure the student, Stilettos are not a good choice for this. Also, after an un-even flare, the canopy shouldn't drop them on their face. As for backing up in high winds, don't take student up in high winds. a first jump student under an elliptical loaded at 1.3:1 in high winds? Definately not a good idea.
Hook

[WmLauterbach 0]

i have seen both extremes work AND fail...
I have watched HUNDREDS of students biff in under a 370 foot docile square after 15-20 jumps on the same canopy... (students that recieved MORE than adequate instruction.)
I have also seen jumpers just off of student status land a spectre 190 like they had been doing it for years...
The moral of the story? (none really)
There are those who given proper instruction can do a BOC mounted level one AFF jump with a wing loaded Stilletto and walk away from the landing area wondering what the big deal was.
Then there are a few who can get a FJC before every jump, and skydive for 20-30 years, have thousands of jumps, lots of cool gear, and still suck becuase the 'light-bulb' never really comes on.
Now, final exam time...
As a skydiving instructor, which of those groups does one have to focus his efforts on?
(no correct answer, but the answer to your question whatever it may be, will be the deciding factor as to what canopy YOUR drop zone will use as its 'solution')
So, my gas bag now drained, I wish for all to live happily ever after as normal fun loving skydivers...
ps...
"A first jump student under a Stilletto loaded at 1.3:1 is a recipe for disaster."
I couldnt agree more...

[polarbear 1]

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I have watched HUNDREDS of students biff in under a 370 foot docile square after 15-20 jumps on the same canopy... (students that recieved MORE than adequate instruction.)

I guess the question is, would they have done better on a smaller "more efficient" canopy? My feeling is no. Generally, the higher performance it is, the more skill it takes to fly/land. If you can't land a huge skytruck, getting a smaller canopy won't help. The abilities of the canopy may be greater with a higher performance design, but the abilities of the pilot are not. It takes more then a "better" parachute.
It may be true that knowledge about flying higher performance canopies is more abundant these days, and canopy designs have progressed a great deal, but a Stiletto is still a Stiletto. They have not magically gotten easier to fly.