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[mountainman 0]

Hey Clay...you are right, some people are agreeing with you (like me) a lot lately. Hmm....*crying*. Just kidding, bro.
JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook.

[skybytch 273]

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Sorry, Andy, but doesn't Roger get enough flaming?

I don't see what Andy said as being a flame. Roger does some pretty progressive stuff and there will always be people who will disagree with at least some of it. As most of you already know I strongly disagree with putting novices on Stilettos but that doesn't mean I think everything Roger does at SDC is wrong/crazy/stupid/deadly. He's a way better skydiver than I'll probably ever be and he's been in this sport since dirt was invented. Sure he's made some mistakes in his life/skydiving/instructing but who can honestly say that they have never made a mistake or ten? For all the bad things people say or can say about Roger Nelson he's done some good things for our sport and therefore has my respect.
pull and flare,
lisa
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[tigra 0]

Lisa,
Just to clarify, Roger Nelson is high profile and does take a lot of criticism for things he actually does, right or wrong, good or bad. I just don't see the point in fueling that with a statement that is untrue. Andy implied that Roger "experimented" with using the Stiletto as a student canopy, and later replaced the Stilettos with Safires. That simply is not true, and that was all I was trying to clarify.
Just trying to play fair here......

[billvon 3,092]

>If SDC put students on Stilettos, then that explains a lot. I've only been there a few times but have only seen them
>putting "Students" out on Safires and Sabre2's. Now... a bunch of thier "graduates" tend to rent the Stilettos
>WAY too early since they went through a "progressive" student program. IMHO, its poor ethics to rent a High proformance
>canopy to someone that is not qualified to use it.
Not if you train them to use it. Is someone with seven static line jumps ready for a 4-way? Absolutely not. Is someone who has graduated AFF ready for a 4-way? Well, maybe, if they're three AFF-JM's. Heck, they've already done a 4-way if they had a level I with video. Is someone who has seven jumps, four days of RW ground training and 30 minutes of tunnel time with 3 other people ready for 4-way with them? Most likely, yes. Training as well as experience makes you safe.
Roger trains students from jump 3-4 to fly high performance canopies, and has them under supervision for their first 20 jumps or so. They learn much more than your 'typical' AFF grad, and don't have to unlearn all the Manta bad habits that people learn (like sticking your arm out to "break your fall.") It could be argued that the early jumps are more risky, but a jumper in Roger's program is safer on a stiletto at 30 jumps than most 'normal' jumpers are at 200.
-bill von

[freeflir29 0]

"a jumper in Roger's program is safer on a stiletto at 30 jumps than most 'normal' jumpers are at 200."
Very true. The one thing that would scare me about putting a student on a Spinetto is getting the thing open. Students aren't known for being stable on deployment. Once thats over...I think coaching and flying these canopies offers lots of advantages. It will definately have the flare to save you....
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[hookit 0]

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The one thing that would scare me about putting a student on a Spinetto is getting the thing open. Students aren't known for being stable on deployment.

I believe the possibility of a canopy spinning up on opening due to poor body position isn't as great for someone who's not loading their canopy significantly.
I began flying a Stiletto 150 loaded at 1.2 when I had about 100 jumps. I proceeded to put 135 jumps on it and had no small number of off heading openings but very few incidents of line twist (and no cutaways).
I realize there's a significant difference between a jumper with 100 jumps and a student jumper regarding stability at pull time and I'm not saying it's a good idea to put students on ellipticals. Just that body position during opening is less critical under a canopy which is lightly loaded.
Blues,
Trey

[skybytch 273]

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I believe the possibility of a canopy spinning up on opening due to poor body position isn't as great for someone who's not loading their canopy significantly.

Check the fatality reports in January's Parachutist. 70 jumps, Stiletto loaded at 1.25, spinning mal, low cutaway, no time for reserve to open.
pull and flare,
lisa
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[PhreeZone 20]

And that one happened at the same DZ as most of the "progressive" teaching.... Whats that say?
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[tigra 0]

It says the kid made a mistake, pulled low, then had a malfunction he did not have time to deal with, lost altitude awareness and cutaway and tried to deploy his reserve way too low.
This sport can be pretty unforgiving at times. Blaming anything other than human error would be a mistake. I'm not saying the canopy wasn't a factor, but you can't blame the canopy or the dz for his decision to pull low, or for his loss of altitude awareness. In the end, we are all responsible for our own lives.

[skymedic 0]

It wasnt the canopy's falt for his loss of altitude awareness....
There also was a guy last year die from a big(over 200) spin up on him....and the resulting unstable reserve pull killed him...
So I dont believe the argument that the spinnetto was the factor
his inability to cutaway and pull are....
marc
"...a mind stretched with new idea's will never regain its shape"

[hookit 0]

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Check the fatality reports in January's Parachutist. 70 jumps, Stiletto loaded at 1.25, spinning mal, low cutaway, no time for reserve to open.

That incident report indicates the canopy opening in a spinning mal was likely to have been caused by one brake being unstowed.
Again, I'm not saying students should be on ellipticals.
-Trey

[axe96bam 0]

I consider myself to be a pretty aggressive person when it comes to canopies and wing loadings. I started flying elipticals at 150 jumps loading them at 1.4 and at 350 jumps I had already jumped an FX99 and FX88 a couple of dozen times. Still, I think that it is not very safe to put students on elipticals or even on semi-elipticals for that matter. I have watched enough of my S/L and AFF students land and was sure glad that they had a big old manta over their heads when some of them flare at 30 feet! I can see where SDC's program is helping the learning curve of a skydiver, but I think that is at the expense of a very high entry point in the learning scheme which puts the student in a greater danger at the very beginning.
This is just my opinion and that is all it is.

[skreamer 1]

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Whats that say?

That an RSL *might* have made a difference?
(sorry, just had to sneak that one in)
Will

[Pammi 0]

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My parents hooked it in and died. I do not appreciate the negative comments.

I'm sorry to hear that...both of them died from hook turns?? When did that happen?
Closing pin jewelry

[PhreeZone 20]

Pammi.... she was poking fun at us with that one.....
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[freebird 0]

Sorry I said that, but I was replying to someone else. It was a bad thing to say. Again I apologize for that reply.
The longer you wait ........the more sense you get.

[diverds 0]

Don't take it personally. It may be that these people are interested in your safety. At the very least they are probably interested in the safety of the sport in general. It is a natural tendency to want to downsize too fast. You see other people flying fast and swooping long and you want to get a piece of it. Keep in mind though that mistakes under smaller canopies are not forgiving. I had over 1400 jumps before I went to a crossbraced canopy and I still have a great deal of respect for it. Is it fun to fly? Hell yes, but you have to be realistic about the level you are at. Make no mistake, a change in from a square 135 to an elliptical 69 is HUGE for any experience level! No one wants to see another skydiver hurt, even if they won't take the advice of someone with more experience.

[prost 0]

Freebird, where in Luisiana do you jump. I jump at Moss Point (or did untill the Marine Corps recalled me)
William