GrumpySmurf 0 #26 January 21, 2002 "Are you mocking me? I am the Great Cornhollio."Just couldn't resist! :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prost 0 #27 January 22, 2002 What Dz in Louisiana? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
des 2 #28 January 22, 2002 there is a webpage somewhere on the darwin theory Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RemiAndKaren 0 #29 January 22, 2002 Freebird,I don’t think anyone here is pissed off by your comments. We’re just (at least I am) a bit shocked by the advice you have been getting.If the person who recommended a 1.7 loaded swooping canopy at 60 jumps (or 70 or 80) is an instructor with USPA, then whatever is the equivalent of the Coaching Committee (in Canada) should be notified as this is goes against anything I’ve learn as a CSPA coach or instructor.In the end, it’s your call on what you get. You did the right thing asking for advice, unfortunately, you got awfull advice on this from that person(s).I am by no means a god’s gift to canopy control, but at 780 jump, I believe I have enough experience to handle a 1.5 to 1.7 wing load. I jump a 1.55 loaded canopy. A big canopy (170 Stiletto.. yes, I’m fat!). A big canopy, regardless of its wingload, will not be as responsive as a small one due to geometry. I got this canopy at about 650 jumps. Could I handle a 2.0 loaded FX or VX or Velocity? Probably. Everytime? Probably not. With only having time to do 100 to 150 jumps / year, I would not keep current enough to “stay on top” of such a high performance canopy.Before that I was jumping a Diablo 170, and before that a Sabre 170 (at a slightly lower wing load... yes, I’m fatter now!) since about jump 200; and a Sabre 210 from jump 75. A sub 100 jump person, under a 1.7 loaded sub 100 sqft canopy? Please don’t, you’ll only hurt and possibly kill yourself. If you still want to, its your choice, but good luck.If you MUST, call Atair who make the Cobalt, they have very progessive views on wing selection (to the despair of the canopy nazis here). Even they (I hope I’m right Dan) will NOT let you demo a 1.7 loaded canopy.RemiMuff 914 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhawk 2 #30 January 22, 2002 as i cant post this in talkback :)ok i just read the other posts i dont see where she was accusing you of beeing a liar but anyways ppl put to much effort into the numbers with wingloading there is acctually a large dif between a 200 pound person at a 1.5 wingloading and a 100 pound person at a 1.5 its not all numbers the smaller the canopy the less air it has to work with and even thinking about an extreme canopy is just plain stupid i dont think you will die i know that you will i consider myself a good canopy pilot and others do as well i stand up constantly in all wind conditions and also use my canopy to the extreme i weigh about 15 pounds more than you and im currently flyen a sabre 150 the people at my dz would prob throw a brock at me if i seriously wanted to jump the canopys you think you can handle. eventually you will be able to jump them and jump them well just waitthey way is see it dont jump a extreme canopy unless you can swoop somthen chronic :)(o)(o) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sangiro 26 #31 January 22, 2002 This thread has some useful information in so I'll leave it be. Just a quick reminder. This is a moderated forum. Don't troll. Keep your posts relevant and to the topic. Any post with a subject that's a person's name is probably something that you should have taken off-line and dealt with in private.Safe swoopsSangiro Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhawk 2 #32 January 22, 2002 c told you i could post somthen sensible :)(o)(o) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #33 January 22, 2002 Apparently private messaging is still broken...OK, I've been following your threads fairly closely because I jump regularly at Spaceland and know you (I'm Ted in the real world) (and so does skycat). I've also kept my mouth shut because, quite frankly, this whole affair has got me totally befuddled because what I'm hearing from you is totally different from the Tiffany I know. I'm going to labor under the assumption that you are in fact Tiffany and not someone who has hijacked her account or otherwise impersonated her. In any event, if what I'm about to say sounds harsh, I'm sorry, but I can't in good conscience stay silent anymore. If you have an issue with anything I'm about to say feel free to ask me at the DZ. What I'm about to say is not meant to be a personal attack.[sermon]Preliminaries out of the way. I'm going to chalk your statements up to you being a newbie in these forums. But the people who you are mad at are people with far more experience and knowledge than you or I. When Lisa talks, I strongly suggest that you listen. I respect the opinion of pretty much everyone here. Everybody here is what I would consider a student of the sport, regardless of jump numbers. And FYI, jump numbers don't mean anything. I know people with sub-100 jumps who know a heckuva lot about the sport and others with over 500 jumps who need a proctologist to find their head.Everybody here is saying the same thing, yet one person (the identity and experience level of whom you haven't told us) has told you that going from...a. A square to an elliptical (and not just any elliptical, but a high-performance cross-braced elliptical); andb. A wingloading of ~0.89 to between ~1.23-~1.79.is no big deal. I, and everyone else here, submit to you that the person telling you that is either yanking your chain or has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. My guess is it's probably the first possibility.Paula, who has approximately 400 jumps, is now transitioning from a Sabre 120 to a Stilleto 120. And, having jumped the Stiletto several times, she understands that this is a big change even though the canopies are exactly the same size.Now if you want to chalk me up as yet another one of the clueless masses who doesn't know you or your canopy skills, so be it. I made what I consider a fairly aggressive canopy choice going from the Sabre 150 to the Jedei 136. But I demoed canopies, talked to people, know what I'm getting into and respect the hell out of that canopy. It's my ass in that harness and if I screw up, which is entirely possible, it's my own damn fault. But I am also actively seeking advice from many experienced canopy pilots and taking their advice to heart. You might want to put your ego on the shelf, not be so defensive and do likewise.The people here know what they are talking about.[/sermon]"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freebird 0 #34 January 22, 2002 Im sorry It was not my intent to scare anyone. I am not well-informed like the rest of you skydivers. Im not going to get anything smaller than a 120. I really did not think a small canopy would hurt a VERY small girl. I WAS WRONG. I have a lot to learn about this sport. I listen to people I know. I appreciate all of the warnings and advice.The longer you wait ........the more sense you get. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kelly 0 #35 January 22, 2002 amen to that. Glad to see that youre making smarter and safer decisions... this way, youre chances of being a hot canopy pilot down the road are increased.http://kel197.tripod.com/skydivefriendsTRIPOD/html Updated!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #36 January 23, 2002 "Are you mocking me? I am the Great Cornhollio."I literally spit on my monitor at work!!! "this way, youre chances of being a hot canopy pilot down the road are increased."Instead of a hot wheelchair pilot. I have 117 jumps and I STILL fly a PD 190 square. Granted....I hook turn and swoop the shit out of it. I load it at 1.3 and thats plenty for me. I may downsize soon but it won't be by much. I just want a semi-elyptical to get better swoops for my effort. I don't want to die.....Please....have a long safe skydiving career and I hope to see you on my Texas visit! "I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #37 January 23, 2002 QuoteIm sorry It was not my intent to scare anyone... I appreciate all of the warnings and advice.No worries. We all come here to learn. I can't tell you how much I've learned from these people over the past year or so. This is a great bunch, so stick around and never be afraid to ask questions. Heck, you've already got the "hot button" issue behind you so it's all downhill from here. And of course always feel free to ask Kelli me or anyone else at the DZ anything you want. If we don't know the answer we probably know who would.As far as your situation goes, and Canopy Nazis, correct me if I'm wrong here , it seems there are two paths you can take. You could go down in size, but stay with a square or semi-elliptical (maybe a Sabre2 120 or a Safire 119) or you could do what Paula did & try a Stiletto in a 135. I know your main objective is getting better glide so you can make it back on windier days, so the Sabre2 may be a good choice. Lots of people are getting them and love them.It's a little "sportier", it has better glide, and will be safer than an elliptical if you find that you need to land off.Either way, try to demo a few canopies before you make a final decision. You'll be glad you did."Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #38 January 23, 2002 "& try a Stiletto in a 135."OOOO....I wouldn't think a "Spinetto" would be too great of an idea just yet. How bout Hornet, Safire, or any other "Semi" first....They didn't get that name because they open nicely every time. "I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #39 January 23, 2002 Personally, I think a Hornet is a great first canopy. It's what I'm jumping right now, infact. The canopy is fairly tame, but you *can* push it.Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.-General George Patton- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #40 January 23, 2002 "I think a Hornet is a great first canopy"Man...I'm getting way too much validation around here lately. People may start to think I know what I'm talkin about.... Nahh....that'd never happen....."I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #41 January 23, 2002 QuoteCanopy Nazis, correct me if I'm wrong here Okay! You asked pull and flare,lisa-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #42 January 23, 2002 Zennie... Bad advice trying a Stiletto if you can't get at least 10 or so jumps a month, every month. And I'd say at least 200 jump min. PD used to say 500 before you could order a Stiletto. A Stiletto is SO easy to fly, that it convinces many pilots to get one when they are not to fly one. Even a larger Stiletto is a handful at first if you are not experienced enough for it.But... as a great redeemer... the 2 canopies you mentioned (Safire and Sabre2) are the shinitz! I've only seen them in flight, but both seem to be great advanced 1st/entry 2nd canopies.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #43 January 23, 2002 QuoteStiletto's just weren't designed to be underloaded. imho it'd be kind of a waste of money to buy one that you load at under about 1.2 when you can get good performance, decent swoop landings and smooth predictable openings out of a Sabre2, Hornet, Safire or equivalent at the same wingloadings.Good point. I knew I was sort of treading into dangerous territory even breathing the word "Stiletto" , the main reason I mentioned it was that she'd be flying it at a low wingloading. I'd heard that Skydive Chicago occasionally put students on very lightly loaded Stilettos so that's why I brought it up.But you make a good point about underloading... that a Sabre2/Hornet/Safire would probably provide the required flight characteristics more efficiently at that wingloading since that's more in their design range."Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #44 January 23, 2002 Skydive Chicago experimented with putting students under lightly loaded Stilettos. Suffice it to say the experiment failed.They replaced the Stilettos with Safires, and have just replaced the Safires with Sabre 2's._Am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #45 January 23, 2002 If SDC put students on Stilettos, then that explains a lot. I've only been there a few times but have only seen them putting "Students" out on Safires and Sabre2's. Now... a bunch of thier "graduates" tend to rent the Stilettos WAY too early since they went through a "progressive" student program. IMHO, its poor ethics to rent a High proformance canopy to someone that is not qualified to use it. If you look at the fatility reports this year, you can see the errors of this thinking at least once directly at SDC and a few times else where too.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tigra 0 #46 January 23, 2002 To clarify, Skydive Chicago did not use the Stiletto as a student canopy, but would occasionally put an ADVANCED student who showed good canopy skills under a lightly loaded Stiletto. (still on radio, of course) At no time were student canopies replaced with Stilettos, however, there are some available as rentals. In 1996, when I started, the student canopies were Sabres (which was unheard of at the time). In 98, I think it was, they switched to the Safire, and now they are using Sabre 2s.Sorry, Andy, but doesn't Roger get enough flaming? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #47 January 23, 2002 "Sorry, Andy, but doesn't Roger get enough flaming?"Hell No! Jess kidin......."I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #48 January 23, 2002 QuoteSkydive Chicago did not use the Stiletto as a student canopy, but would occasionally put an ADVANCED student who showed good canopy skills under a lightly loaded StilettoDo they still do this or have they since stopped?"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #49 January 23, 2002 Yeah he does. I'm not the one flaming him. I usually jump at Hinckley though..Oops, my bad.People used to flame him when he was the first DZ to put students under squares, too..._Am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #50 January 23, 2002 Quotehe was the first DZ to put students under squaresI didn't know that. For years I thought DZs in Florida and Arizona were first.Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
