Jumperpaula 0 #1 January 11, 2002 What should I expect and what advice can you give me? I have 400 jumps, last 100 on a Sabre 120 - moving to a Stilleto 120 Loaded 1.3. Paula Fly Your Slot ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Geoff 0 #2 January 11, 2002 Openings will be softer, but more prone to be off-heading or twisty - especially if you don't control your balance in the harness during deployment. Forward speed will be about the same. Glide will be much better. Turns will be much faster and lose much more altitude. Landings will be easier (more lift), but flatter - you'll need a longer runway and it'll be more difficult to hit a precise touch-down point.Hope that helpsGeoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #3 January 11, 2002 I would have to agree with Geoff. Make you are stable and square in the harness at pull time. Be slow and methodical when puilling the first few times. You will soon learn you can steer the canopy on opening with your hips. Line twists can be a problem that may lead to a chop. The chute isn't nicknamed the "Spinetto" for no reason. (but most elips have this tendency). It's a good canopy. (I have a 150) Enjoy! Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #4 January 11, 2002 Pretty much what they said. Just to elaborate from my experience doing demos...* Ellipticals will take on a life of their own on opening. You'll learn to "steer" the opening as the cells inflate. In only two weeks with the Cobalt I was so habituated to immediately reaching back to grab the rear risers and steer the opening that it took a couple of jumps back on the Sabre before I realized I didn't have to do that anymore.* Weight shifts in the harness will now be a big deal. I would go all over the place when I reached up to collapse my slider. So you need to sort of pay attention when doing things like that.* You will get lots more... um... penetration. This is good on windy days and getting back from a long spot. It also means you need to be a little more heads-up because people will come up on you *much* faster. Remember my little near-miss with Conway?* I've never flown a Stiletto but I understand the toggle inputs are twitchy. This means you need to be much more careful avoiding traffic close to the ground. You definitely can't just do a toggle turn to avoid people like you might be able to with a square. Even braked turns are dicey. It will require much more finesse.Do a few jumps and deploy high and explore the control range. Get a feel for how "divey" the canopy is when you do toggle turns. Get a feel for the flare. Do some braked turns and see how it reacts. Does it dive or sink gradually? Play with the front & rear risers and see how the canopy behaves. What kind of recovery arc do you have on toggle turns & front riser turns? Things like that.Other might have some additional tips. These are just some things I noticed when I began working with ellipticals. Good luck & play safe! "Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #5 January 11, 2002 in reply too: "Ellipticals will take on a life of their own on opening. You'll learn to "steer" the opening as the cells inflate. In only two weeks with the Cobalt I was so habituated to immediately reaching back to grab the rear risers and steer the opening " itr depends on teh canopy and loading, some if you try to steer on opening you will over compensate and put yourself in line twists. teh Velocity, for example, wants to be left alone on deployment, it naturally hunts for a heading while it opens, trying to compensate can actaully get you into more issues (I listened to that advice, another I know didn't, he had a line twist cut away) YMMV of course Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #6 January 11, 2002 Quoteitr depends on teh canopy and loadingI probably should have qualified that with "in my (limited) experience". "Steering the opening" seemed to be a mantra of sorts from people I talked to and it held true on the Cobalt & Vengeance. "Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #7 January 11, 2002 Definately talk to someone who has jumped your type of canopy. As you know I normally jump a crossfire, actually this weekend I'll be doing like you and relearning my canopy, my 104 arrived today and I'll be loading it almost as much as you. Anyway, canopys even of the same type fly very different, such as my crossfire has very little overstear I let up on the toggles from doing 360s and it wants to fly strait, where as when I jumped a friends cobalt of basically the same size (116 vs 120), that thing really wanted to keep turning and diving. So you may really need to get advice on that canopies quarks from a Stiletto jumper.Also if you should get 1 or 2 line twists on opening, look up and make sure your links are even. If they are not, make them even, just don't ride it into the ground trying or if it's only getting worse, cut away. If you can get them there or they are the canopy should fly strait and you should be able to kick out. I've gotten out of 6 or 7 line twists several times before by doing this. Be safe and have fun *hugs*Kelli Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #8 January 12, 2002 QuoteDefinately talk to someone who has jumped your type of canopyHeh, if this is the canopy I think it is, she can talk to the person who flew that very canopy (i.e. Mike). "Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumperpaula 0 #9 January 12, 2002 Great advice! Lot's of it the same as I've already heard. I've asked and talked and thought, and researched and read.I've narrowed my concerns down- I don't feel anxious about the landings, it's the "more prone to spinning high speed mal's" part that's kept me from trying it. but...time to shut up and jump it! Thanks Everyone! Fly Your Slot ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #10 January 12, 2002 when you start jumping an elliptical canopy:-no matter how much you think you have symmetrical body position on opening:you dont. but dont worry once you accept that you will learn quickly.-All ellipticals are different and have their own distint characteristics.take advice from someone on your canopy and loading.-cut off your rsl and make a keychain.-enjoy your stilletto and practice your 'ching ching' (cutaway) every time you walk to the plane. sincerely,danielatairwww.extremefly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #11 January 12, 2002 QuoteVelocity, for example, wants to be left alone on deployment, it naturally hunts for a heading while it opensThis sounds dangerous. Are you saying that the Velocity does not open on heading, but rather just opens in whatever direction it wants to? Please explain.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prost 0 #12 January 13, 2002 You haven't jumped any tiny cross-braced canopies have you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #13 January 13, 2002 QuoteYou haven't jumped any tiny cross-braced canopies have you?Nope. But, if you have and can enlighten us all about their opening characteristics, then please do. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is interested.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #14 January 13, 2002 well, they do have a mind of their own, but as far as opening on heading, they do within a certain degree of arc, the thing is, when the canopy is inflating, it will go left, then right, then maybe left again, then a little right, and so on, if you try to correct it with risers or harness, you may put yourself in line twists cause the canopy will hunt for a heading as it inflates, and if you try to correct for it, you may be worse off, kind of like steering the wrong way on a slippery road. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #15 January 13, 2002 Wow. That's got to be a little unnerving the first time, more so if you're not ready for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #16 January 13, 2002 yes it can be -- that is why it is a good idea to talk to people that have put lots of jumps on that model canopy before you take it for a spin (no pun intended Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites prost 0 #17 January 13, 2002 They tend to dance around a lot on opening. Usually they will still open up close to on heading but can be way of sometimes.William Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jumperpaula 0 #18 January 18, 2002 I did not fall in love with the canopy on the first jump. The opening was slow alright- slow as Christmas and the canopy seemed "twitchy" and I spent the whole first jump playing with the toggles, and the stall point and the flare. I paid close attention to my body position in relation to the canopy in full flight and level light etc. like Colbalt Dan recommends. My landing was nice. Seemed like a reasonable flare. Second jump, I had a little more fun with it, still opened slow, but I was ready for it. I wanted to help it - I played with risers and some spirals, fun to dive that hard - my Sabre could NEVER do that. I had the whole sky to myselft, and was having sooo much fun watching the canopy perform during the manuvers. On the second landing, I found the bottom of the flare - the flare inputs are no where near as forgiving as the Sabre, but nothing I couldn't run out. It seemed in full flight the twitchy nature was worse, almost like the thing was flying me - I've never been a wingload junkie, but this is the first time I really felt like a canopy over me needed more weight. Like the ride would be smoother. Should I be feeling LIGHT under canopy going from a Sabre120 @ 1.3 to a Stilletto120 @ 1.3? I weigh 155 in full RW gear. Or I've been hanging around Ramon too long? As far as the opening being slow, Maybe I should take it to terminal? Did two hop-n-pops. Not a blonde....Paula Fly Your Slot ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #19 January 18, 2002 Paula, even at a 1.58:1 wing loading, I felt like i needed to load the canopy more to get rid of its twitchyness. the toggle range was way too short for my tastes. So no, its not just you with these feelings I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zennie 0 #20 January 18, 2002 Quotethe canopy seemed "twitchy"... it seemed in full flight the twitchy nature was worse, almost like the thing was flying meNot having flown a Stilletto, that is pretty much its reputation. But part of that is just the nature of an elliptical. It will be much more responsive to toggle inputs. I liken going from the Sabre to the Jedei as going from a Taurus to a Mustang. The "Mustang" will be much more sensitive to steering input and braking.I'm loading my Jedei at 1.4 and when I crank down on a toggle, I wind up swinging out above the tail of the canopy. That took some getting used to. Not sure what you're experiencing with the flare, but in my case I'm finding that I'm working the flare too fast and wanting to set my feet down long before the canopy is done flying. So I need to learn a bit more patience. The flare is much more subtle.In addition to working on approaches & landings, I'm also working on collision avoidance up high. Specifically, braked turns. I'm thinking also weight shifts in the harness might also be worth exploring. Maybe even a combination of the two. What you *don't* want to do are toggle turns down low. You might be able to get away with that on a Sabre, but on a Jedei (and a Stiletto) that sucker is gonna dive and you'll most likely end up broken or worse. Ask some of the swoopers for advice. Chris Miller is really good about giving pointers if you ask him. I've also talked with Derek a lot. If you want his email, I can give it to you."Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #21 January 19, 2002 Quote Should I be feeling LIGHT under canopy going from a Sabre120 @ 1.3 to a Stilletto120 @ 1.3? I weigh 155 in full RW gear. IMHO, the Stiletto got twitchier the heavier it was loaded.. I jumped a couple loaded from 1.3 to about 1.8.. The openings got more interesting, too.. That canopy definitely takes some getting used to, but once it's open, it loves to fly......unfortunately, it just doesn't like to swoop enough for my tastes..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aviatrr 0 #22 January 19, 2002 Quote I'm loading my Jedei at 1.4 and when I crank down on a toggle, I wind up swinging out above the tail of the canopy. That took some getting used to. The Jedei(and the newest version of it, the Samurai) is an awesome canopy, and loves to fly.....but it's definitely very twitchy.. I have jumped 2 different Jedei's of the same size, the same day......and they flew vastly different.. Each one has a personality all its own.. Learn it, know it, love it.. Have you done any rear riser turns with the deployment brakes set? All of the Jedei and Samurai that I've jumped had serious oversteer during such turns, though the oversteer was much less(while still significant) during rear riser turns at full flight and toggle turns.. They definitely love to dive(and dive, and dive, and dive) after a front riser turn..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zennie 0 #23 January 19, 2002 QuoteHave you done any rear riser turns with the deployment brakes set?Heh. Actually I have on a few openings where the end cells didn't inflate evenly. So I reach back, try to steer the thing back on heading and "WHOA Nilly!". Felt like I was on a rodeo ride. You're right, lots of oversteer."Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jumperpaula 0 #24 January 23, 2002 Ok, I have a question about the beer rules and canopies. I know I owe a case of beer for my first jump on my new Stilletto. (New canopy for me, goes without saying), but the contraversy comes over "do I owe beer for my first Stilletto jump?" Even if it wasn't my Stilletto? and if this is true, will I always owe beer for ANY new canopy I jump for the first time? Some say "first Stilletto jump is beer", but it doesn't make sense to buy beer for EVERY canopy you try for the FIRST time. I buy my beer when neeeded, but just like Im against Illegal pieing, Im not into illegal beer requirements either. Whadda ya think? Fly Your Slot ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #25 January 23, 2002 "Im not into illegal beer requirements either."Any time you ask...Should I? The answer is yes! This works well when on dates too...."I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
prost 0 #17 January 13, 2002 They tend to dance around a lot on opening. Usually they will still open up close to on heading but can be way of sometimes.William Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumperpaula 0 #18 January 18, 2002 I did not fall in love with the canopy on the first jump. The opening was slow alright- slow as Christmas and the canopy seemed "twitchy" and I spent the whole first jump playing with the toggles, and the stall point and the flare. I paid close attention to my body position in relation to the canopy in full flight and level light etc. like Colbalt Dan recommends. My landing was nice. Seemed like a reasonable flare. Second jump, I had a little more fun with it, still opened slow, but I was ready for it. I wanted to help it - I played with risers and some spirals, fun to dive that hard - my Sabre could NEVER do that. I had the whole sky to myselft, and was having sooo much fun watching the canopy perform during the manuvers. On the second landing, I found the bottom of the flare - the flare inputs are no where near as forgiving as the Sabre, but nothing I couldn't run out. It seemed in full flight the twitchy nature was worse, almost like the thing was flying me - I've never been a wingload junkie, but this is the first time I really felt like a canopy over me needed more weight. Like the ride would be smoother. Should I be feeling LIGHT under canopy going from a Sabre120 @ 1.3 to a Stilletto120 @ 1.3? I weigh 155 in full RW gear. Or I've been hanging around Ramon too long? As far as the opening being slow, Maybe I should take it to terminal? Did two hop-n-pops. Not a blonde....Paula Fly Your Slot ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #19 January 18, 2002 Paula, even at a 1.58:1 wing loading, I felt like i needed to load the canopy more to get rid of its twitchyness. the toggle range was way too short for my tastes. So no, its not just you with these feelings I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #20 January 18, 2002 Quotethe canopy seemed "twitchy"... it seemed in full flight the twitchy nature was worse, almost like the thing was flying meNot having flown a Stilletto, that is pretty much its reputation. But part of that is just the nature of an elliptical. It will be much more responsive to toggle inputs. I liken going from the Sabre to the Jedei as going from a Taurus to a Mustang. The "Mustang" will be much more sensitive to steering input and braking.I'm loading my Jedei at 1.4 and when I crank down on a toggle, I wind up swinging out above the tail of the canopy. That took some getting used to. Not sure what you're experiencing with the flare, but in my case I'm finding that I'm working the flare too fast and wanting to set my feet down long before the canopy is done flying. So I need to learn a bit more patience. The flare is much more subtle.In addition to working on approaches & landings, I'm also working on collision avoidance up high. Specifically, braked turns. I'm thinking also weight shifts in the harness might also be worth exploring. Maybe even a combination of the two. What you *don't* want to do are toggle turns down low. You might be able to get away with that on a Sabre, but on a Jedei (and a Stiletto) that sucker is gonna dive and you'll most likely end up broken or worse. Ask some of the swoopers for advice. Chris Miller is really good about giving pointers if you ask him. I've also talked with Derek a lot. If you want his email, I can give it to you."Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #21 January 19, 2002 Quote Should I be feeling LIGHT under canopy going from a Sabre120 @ 1.3 to a Stilletto120 @ 1.3? I weigh 155 in full RW gear. IMHO, the Stiletto got twitchier the heavier it was loaded.. I jumped a couple loaded from 1.3 to about 1.8.. The openings got more interesting, too.. That canopy definitely takes some getting used to, but once it's open, it loves to fly......unfortunately, it just doesn't like to swoop enough for my tastes..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #22 January 19, 2002 Quote I'm loading my Jedei at 1.4 and when I crank down on a toggle, I wind up swinging out above the tail of the canopy. That took some getting used to. The Jedei(and the newest version of it, the Samurai) is an awesome canopy, and loves to fly.....but it's definitely very twitchy.. I have jumped 2 different Jedei's of the same size, the same day......and they flew vastly different.. Each one has a personality all its own.. Learn it, know it, love it.. Have you done any rear riser turns with the deployment brakes set? All of the Jedei and Samurai that I've jumped had serious oversteer during such turns, though the oversteer was much less(while still significant) during rear riser turns at full flight and toggle turns.. They definitely love to dive(and dive, and dive, and dive) after a front riser turn..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #23 January 19, 2002 QuoteHave you done any rear riser turns with the deployment brakes set?Heh. Actually I have on a few openings where the end cells didn't inflate evenly. So I reach back, try to steer the thing back on heading and "WHOA Nilly!". Felt like I was on a rodeo ride. You're right, lots of oversteer."Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumperpaula 0 #24 January 23, 2002 Ok, I have a question about the beer rules and canopies. I know I owe a case of beer for my first jump on my new Stilletto. (New canopy for me, goes without saying), but the contraversy comes over "do I owe beer for my first Stilletto jump?" Even if it wasn't my Stilletto? and if this is true, will I always owe beer for ANY new canopy I jump for the first time? Some say "first Stilletto jump is beer", but it doesn't make sense to buy beer for EVERY canopy you try for the FIRST time. I buy my beer when neeeded, but just like Im against Illegal pieing, Im not into illegal beer requirements either. Whadda ya think? Fly Your Slot ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #25 January 23, 2002 "Im not into illegal beer requirements either."Any time you ask...Should I? The answer is yes! This works well when on dates too...."I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
