freakflyer69 0 #1 October 3, 2002 Has anyone directly compare the two at an equal wing loading. I am wondering how they compare as far as speed, flare/lift, glide ratio, riser pressures etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #2 October 3, 2002 I've got a few dozen jumps on a Cobalt 135 and about 10 on a Sabre2 135. I thought the Sabre2 felt faster in forward drive, had just as nice of glide, was slower in turns, had higher riser pressure and was easier to plane out, but did'nt have quite the flare of the Cobalt. I did find out that the Sabre2 demo I jumped was torn apart by PD because it opened so weird all the time. I had 3 slammers in a row and it dove hard right every time too. I had a demo Cobalt (I did the 1st jump on it) open so hard you can hear the crack of it on video. My personal Cobalt has never slammed me, and none of the Sabre2's at the DZ seem to open hard, but weird canopies are out there, keep your eye out for them and notify the facroty if they send you a demo one. Both factories offered me other demos that I later accepted one and turned the other down and the replacement canopy was smooth as silk.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #3 October 3, 2002 Atair normally says that to feel as fast in normal flight you would have to go down in size, as the Cobalt has a flatter glide. I can attest to this as I felt damn comfortable under a 105 Cobalt. I bought the 120 cause the 105 looked bad in my VooDoo. Major puckerage of the main compartment. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #4 October 3, 2002 >I bought the 120 cause the 105 looked bad in my VooDoo. Major >puckerage of the main compartment. Sometimes I like to pretend that people really don't choose canopy sizes this way . . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #5 October 3, 2002 Quote>I bought the 120 cause the 105 looked bad in my VooDoo. Major >puckerage of the main compartment. Sometimes I like to pretend that people really don't choose canopy sizes this way . . . I would be more concerned if he had bought the 105 because the 120 looked bad in his container. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #6 October 3, 2002 QuoteSometimes I like to pretend that people really don't choose canopy sizes this way . a small canopy in a container made for a larger one isn't necesairly a safe thing bill....especialy for a freeflyer... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakflyer69 0 #7 October 3, 2002 not to sound like a dick but I was not looking for a quote from an advertisement but a COMPARISON based on EXPERIENCE. THANKS PHREEZONE 135 IS THE SIZE IN QUESTION FOR ME. but back to the topic other than looks, any other comparisons OR DIFFS noticed thanks all Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #8 October 3, 2002 In my limited experience I would have to agree with Phree. I demoed both canopys in the 135 size. The openings on the Sabre2 were very good but not as sweet as the cobalt ( I like long & soft). As far as speed, I flew the two on different days and conditions. The turns on the cobalt were faster with a more precise response without any signs of oversteer. I could get it to dive longer and faster and also fly flatter braked turns I also like the flare better on the cobalt. People say the sabre is semi elliptical and the cobalt fully elliptical maybe one day I may just lay them down and compare their planeforms. I do like both very much and ended up getting a cobalt, No regretts. Try them both and tell us what you think. Glen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #9 October 3, 2002 One other thing that I forgot to mention was I let my brakes out an inch on my 150 and it flys sweeter then normal, but I felt like i needed to let the Sabre2 out at least 4 or 5 inches to get to the same style flare I like. The reason it planed out so easy was as soon as I would get to the point in the flare that I'm starting to level out under the Cobalt, I was fully planed out on the Sabre2. I could be less precise on the timing and flare with the Sabre2, with the Cobalt it needs better timing to start at 10 feet up and hit the arc so you are just catching up to the canopy when you start a toe drag. The Sabre2 was more forgiving of being late on the plane out/flare then a Cobalt. The Sabre2 has the shorter toggle range like all PD canopies, I personally like long control ranges but most people seem to like the PD style. Big, HUGE difference in riser pressure. PAcking the Cobalt is a dream.. the PD was a nightmare. Just some more info to think about while flying the canopies.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #10 October 4, 2002 My experience seemed to be the cobalt had a much longer control range like phree said...I prefer this type of control range...it seemed much more like my safire...the sabre has a tighter control range. also mongo flare on the cobalt as opposed to decent flare on a sabre 2..but no where near the same as on the cobalt... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #11 October 4, 2002 Sorry. I was trying to say that if you were to judge them, you may want to compare one size smaller on the Cobalt. It was not a plug for the canopy. From my experience, if that is what you require I will say that I would compare the Cobalt 105 more to a CF1 119. The Cobalt 120 seemed slower than the Crossfire 119 I had previously. Does this help at all? JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #12 October 4, 2002 Was there something wrong with this logic? The 105 was too small for my container, so I went to the 120 which I feel is still a great canopy, fun to fly with plenty of learning curve still to go. The 105 was fine as well, I felt I could have flown it in any conditions I would normally jump in. So I'm not real sure where you were going with this. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #13 October 4, 2002 I think what bill was saying is he hates to see people decide to fly canopies that are not the right size (too small normally) just because it looks better in their container then a larger main. Also picking cosmetics over safety is the mark of the modern skydiver it seems...Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #14 October 4, 2002 Yeah, well I choose a larger canopy cause it fit better, regardless of that I felt comfortable under either and felt the 120 was a better choice. In all respect to Bill's experience and expertise, I didn't need to get flamed by him for my choice or the logic I used. Sometimes I like to pretend I know what is in my best interest and when I don't I'll be the first to ask for opinions. Apparently smart-*ss comments I can get anytime without asking. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #15 October 4, 2002 manufacturers opinion: the cobalt is slightly slower in foward speed compared to a sabre2 of equal wing loading. turns are slightly faster, but without oversteer. front riser pressure is lighter. glide ratio is higher. openings longer with less force. flare is stronger. packing is easier (non-slipery zp material). in the event of a premature opening at freefall speeds the cobalt is safer. sincerely, dan<><> atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.comDaniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #16 October 4, 2002 Yeah, what he said. Only not as technical sounding. JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #17 October 4, 2002 QuoteI didn't need to get flamed by him for my choice or the logic I used. Didn't appear to be a flame to me. "Fashion" has become important to many skydivers and that has been discussed in this forum recently. You said that you chose the 120 because it looked better in your container; sounds like you would have preferred to fly the 105. That could be taken as choosing your gear based on how it looks. In your case, I applaud going with what looks good. If you find yourself in a really bad situation, that extra 15 square feet may be a very good thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanEHdian 0 #18 October 4, 2002 Quotein the event of a premature opening at freefall speeds the cobalt is safer. Dan, I've heard folks mention that once in a while their Cobalt smacks them quite hard on opening. Have you heard of this and if so, what's the scoop on this problem? BTW, this is a sincere, honest question on my part - not interested in creating conflict... just looking for facts as I decide on my next choice in canopies. Cheers, CanEHdianTime's flying, and so am I... (69-way, 108-way and 138/142-way Freefly World Records) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #19 October 4, 2002 On my Sabre2-170 I have been losing wing loading because I have been losing weight. I will eventually go either to a 150 Cobalt or 150 Sabre2, but for now I do like the fast forward drive. Plus, I have noticed my accuracy go way up since I starting flying this particular canopy. I get all giddy on no-wind days cuz I love the turf surf. I did spend two weekends experimenting with all different sizes and makes before I made a selection; nothing dangerous, and wound up getting something that felt right and that I felt confident landing. If you are under canopy and you have "chute fear" and all you can think about is "can I land this thing?" you are DEFINATELY not right for that chute IMHO. As for all the Hornet/Sabre2 mumbo jumbo on this forum... all I can say is that I like what I have, it works well for me, it's safe for what skills I have, and that's that. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spy38W 0 #20 October 4, 2002 QuoteDan, I've heard folks mention that once in a while their Cobalt smacks them quite hard on opening. Have you heard of this and if so, what's the scoop on this problem? I saw video of my instructor getting *slammed* by the Cobalt I was demoing, and also one other person who tried it got a slammer also. I didn't pack either of those though. I put 100 jumps on a Cobalt 150 @ 1.3 and never got slammed by it. Dumped in a track most of the time, in a sit a bunch of times, and headdown 3 or 4 times. Always nice for me. -- Hook high, flare on time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #21 October 4, 2002 cobalts are very soft opening canopies and are unique in that over a certain range they will open softer at higher speeds. we routinely demonstrate deployments at speeds that would surely injure on competing canopies. see our web site for video of 180mph head down deployments, 535# exit weight deployments on a cobalt 120, and up to 1000# @ 184mph deployment on our cobalt 350, all live jumped. i we have logged test jumps with deployments up to just under 260 mph) it is rare for a cobalt to open hard. in those instances it is usually because it is not being used corectly, is out of spec from line or tape shrinkage, or a fluke. if someone reports a condition where a cobalt is opening hard. we first have a discusion and advise on the proper set-up and use the canopy (also posted on the faq page of our web site), i.e. what size pilot chute, the effect of rear risers during deployments etc... we further explain that if this does not solve the problem to immediately send the canopy back for testing. we strongly stand behind our products. i just looked up our stats, we computerized 2 years ago, in that time less than 1/4 of 1% of the canopies we manufactured had logged comments about their openings. a much smaller percentage actually had issue. and all situations were resolved. but you know the old saying "100 at-a-boys = 1-uh oh". sincerely, dan<><>Daniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanEHdian 0 #22 October 4, 2002 Fair enough - thanks for the info Dan. Cheers, CanEHdianTime's flying, and so am I... (69-way, 108-way and 138/142-way Freefly World Records) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
