PD 190 F1-11 Questions

[hawkbit 0]

Anyone out there with experience on a Main like this?
I bought a rig and that is the main that came with it. It's in excellent shape and has low jumps on it ( I know everyone says that ). My rigger says it has a lot of life in it... it was just sitting for a long time with no one to play with it.
Is there anything I shouldn't do when flying this canopy? Any known issues I might want to think about. I jumped it once already and was pretty conservative with it, but I would appreciate any input in the matter.
Thanks in advance!
Blues!

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"You don't quit playing because you get old, you get old because you quit playing"

[AggieDave 6]

Its a great canopy, I flew a PD 210 for a while and have flown other F111 canopies, they're not bad canopies. Remember, though, it is still possible to hurt yourself under a "conservative" canopy like this, other then that you'll probably just have fun. That and it is not like a ZP canopy, it does NOT like to have a hefty wingloading (I've got a couple funny stories about doing this).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[freeflir29 0]

Ahhhh....That was my very first canopy. I still have it in a bag at the house in fact. I only put about 90 jumps on mine. It only had about 20 when I bought it. The PD 190 is a GREAT canopy to learn on. I started still really learning to land. By the time I bought my Stilletto I was doing 270 hooks on that BIG SQUARE canopy. Surfing it pretty good too. It opened beautiful when Pro Packed. Very stable. Of course it doesn't quite have the flare of a ZP but I didn't have any issues with it.

[Cornholio 0]

My first canopy off student status was a PD-210. It had about 200 jumps on it and was a few years old. The guy I bought it from said that it ws a good canopy and no problems for him. My rigger inspected it and said it looked excellent for only having 200 jumps on it.

Anyhow - my personal experience on that canopy was not pleasant. I put about 30 jumps on it and I think I stood up 3 of those jumps. The best flare I got out of that sucker was a downwind landing !! Regardless, the problem was not just me, but also because of my wing loading. I was overloading the canopy with a 1.1:1 ratio. I spoke to a couple JMs at my DZ and told them to watch me land and to give advice. Both of the JMs said my landing technique was good enough to land, but that I was still sinking that sucker in every time and I would end up doing a butt slide.

Bottom line is this... don't overload a F-111 canopy more than 1.0 to 1 wing loading. PD especially recommends not to go over 1:1 loading on their F111 canopies. I'm not sure about other vendors. I am now flying a Spectre 190 and I had to relearn my flaring techniqe because I was trying to compensate for my shotty job on the PD210 and the overloading.

- corn

Butthead: Whoa! Burritos for breakfast!
Beavis: Yeah! Yeah! Cool!
bellyflier on the dz.com hybrid record jump

[drenaline 0]

I used the PD 230 when I was a student, opens nice and very easy to propack. If it came with the main then keep it and use it until it pukes (tears) by that time you should have saved enough money to order a new canopy.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[fudd 0]

This was the canopy in my first rig to. Put about 30 jumps on it. It was worn out, couldn't land it so I now borrow a Clipper 190, and have no problems with it. (It doesn't have quite as crispy turns as the PD, but is lighter on the frontrisers.)
Here's my advice:
- Wingload below 1.0
- No radical maneuvers below 2500'
When high up try
- front riser turns
- back riser turns
- flat turns
- flaring and finding the stallpoint
- Radical toggel turns, explore and find the point where the canopy is about to slap you with cloesed end cells and twin.
- Half brakes will recover closed endcells.
- Ask experienced jumpers at the DZ any question you might have no matter how stupid it might be.
- When you can afford it, downsize and buy a ZP canopy.
- And most important of all: HAVE FUN!

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[steve1 5]

I started out with a couple of Falcons. I think they are very similar to a PD. I weigh about 175 so I was loading my 195 at about 1:1. I was able to stand up most of the landings, but some of these were fairly hard, so I wouldn't want to go any smaller on a f-111 canopy. I still jump my Falcon 235. It has well over a thousand jumps on it and still works great. I'm waiting for the day it blows up, but right now it works great for a back up rig. There's not a single hole in it and the larger dacron lines seem to be in good enough shape. And I like that saying. "You don't quit playing because you get old. You get old because you quit playing." Steve1

[freeflir29 0]

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don't overload a F-111 canopy more than 1.0 to 1 wing loading

Uuummm....I loaded mine somewhere around 1.3:1 and used to get nice surfs on almost every jump. Sounds like your brakes were too short. I had some landing issues until I let the brakes out about 4 inches. Funny, I did the exact same thing when I bought my Stilletto.

[steve1 5]

Clay,
That might be true. I know that I need to let them out further on my hornet. It works fine until I go to use front risers and it starts bucking. Right now they are a couple inches longer than the factory setting, but I need to let them out a few more inches. Steve1

[freeflir29 0]

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It works fine until I go to use front risers and it starts bucking

Yep...those are DEFINATELY too short. One thing that might help. When you go to do riser turns make sure you reach all the way up to the connector links. That gives you an extra couple inches of riser travel before deflecting the tail. I have had to add at least 4 inches to the brakes on both canopies.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I know Patrick (er I mean Hawkbit) and his wing loading on this PD190 F-111 is about 1:1 so he should be fine (just as long as he's more subtle with his flares ... hint ... hint ... Patrick). Now if I was flying his canopy (I'm at least 30 lbs heavier) that would be a different story. But I've been flying Spectre 210s and PD210s at our DZ loaded at about 1.1:1 and while I crashed and burned a couple of times yesterday on the PD210 but did manage to stand up my landings today on the Spectre.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Scoby 0]

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Bottom line is this... don't overload a F-111 canopy more than 1.0 to 1 wing loading. PD especially recommends not to go over 1:1 loading on their F111 canopies.

On a slightly related note, reserve canopies are F111. How come people routinely load their reserves at much more than 1:1? Do many people get hurt landing a highly-loaded reserve? I'm just curious, but I've always wondered why people have reserves as small as their mains. I know about the 2-out situation, but isn't a reserve landing much, much more common than a 2-out?

[freeflir29 0]

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How come people routinely load their reserves at much more than 1:1?

Fashion mostly. Plus...container manufacturers don't make containers for a 65 main and a 150 reserve. It wouldn't look as good.

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Do many people get hurt landing a highly-loaded reserve?

Yes...more often than not I see a lot of people slide in on their ass. After all...you don't fly that canopy often.

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isn't a reserve landing much, much more common than a 2-out?

Yep....

[Jessica 0]

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On a slightly related note, reserve canopies are F111. How come people routinely load their reserves at much more than 1:1?

I asked the same question in this thread:

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=207696;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

It seems really dumb to me, but what do I know.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[hawkbit 0]

Thanks for the input and suggestions... I still have a lot of learning to do with landing this crazy thing. I haven't stood one up yet... close but no cigar. On the upside, the landings haven't been bad enough to cause any injury (yet...knock on wood). I enjoy the canopy and almost as importantly, it's saving me a bucket load of money... especially for the price I picked it up for.
Blues and softer landings (than mine, that is )

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You don't quit playing because you get old, you get old because you quit playing"

[Scoby 0]

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Fashion mostly. Plus...container manufacturers don't make containers for a 65 main and a 150 reserve. It wouldn't look as good.

I think that I want a 170 reserve, even if I downsize my main. I'm guessing that in any situation that I've had to deploy my main, I won't want to be worrying about how to land the thing, especially if I am hurt. It could really ugly if one had to land it in unfavorable conditions, like no wind or on a night jump.

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Yes...more often than not I see a lot of people slide in on their ass. After all...you don't fly that canopy often.

That's true. I think when I get my container, I'm going to get a demo reserve to try out, so I know what to expect. I'm not willing to get hurt for fashion.

[weid14 0]

because on regular 0-3cfm fabric you will get the same approximate performance as a z-po canopy when the 0-3cfm fabric is unused. that's why the 0-3cfm fabric flares pretty decently when new, but as you put jumps on it it starts to degrade, making the landings less than desirable.

on the PD-190 make sure you put a good pack job on them, they, like the old sabres, will spank you if you're not careful.

[Watcher 0]

PD reserves flare amazingly well, My 113 is loaded at 1.7:1, I have had 2 beautiful tippy toe soft landings on the reserve, after about a nice small 20 foot surf (same flare as the other PD canopies). The deployments were good too, one was terminal, one was subterminal. As far as why one has it, a smaller container is easier to fly with, and weighs less. Most Container manufactures do not make a large reserve small main combo, there are some, but most are not stock designs. But in the end there should be no problems landing a highly loaded reserve if you are flying a highly loaded main, at least from my experience with PD reserves, to each his own though.

Jonathan

Jonathan Bartlett
D-24876
AFF-I

[Kris 0]

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Fashion mostly. Plus...container manufacturers don't make containers for a 65 main and a 150 reserve. It wouldn't look as good.

Actually, some will. Sunrise Rigging comes to mind with their Wings container and I'm pretty sure there's one other that will.

Kris

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[PhreeZone 20]

Mirage offers a moderate combo (160/120 i think) and what ever Windsor jumps with that 99 Crossbraced /240 something reserve.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[weid14 0]

Winsor jumps a racer -- main tray is easier to downsize in, although it gets ugly. Mirage and Vector are both making containers for large(r) reserves vs small(ish) mains. I know Mirage has them as standard on their website.

[billvon 3,095]

>don't overload a F-111 canopy more than 1.0 to 1 wing loading.

This depends on age. A new PD150 can be used to nearly 2:1 - PD once had a HP crossbraced canopy (the Excalibur, I think) made of F111 that worked fine, at least for the first 200 jumps or so. After 500 jumps I'd be very leery of getting over 1:1.

[Cornholio 0]

Can be ... yes, it can be - but it is not recommended.
At least according to their web site and the sizing chart. Am I looking in the wrong place where it says 2:1 on a PD150 is ok ?
http://www.performancedesigns.com/ninecell.htm

Butthead: Whoa! Burritos for breakfast!
Beavis: Yeah! Yeah! Cool!
bellyflier on the dz.com hybrid record jump

[ernokaikkonen 0]

>>don't overload a F-111 canopy more than 1.0 to 1 wing loading.
>>
>This depends on age.
>

Indeed. And more often than not it's pretty near impossible to tell how many jumps a 0-3cfm canopy has... until you jump it and it doesn't flare

And 2:1 on 0-3cfm... Not me, I can tell you that!

Erno

[billvon 3,095]

>Can be ... yes, it can be - but it is not recommended.

You are correct. It is not recommended, primarily because very quickly (50-100 jumps?) it will no longer flare well and could hurt you. The same thing will happen to a PD-143R; but few PD-143 reserves have 50-100 jumps on them.