Sabre II vs. Spectre

[Deuce 1]

I'm going to get a second rig so I can do back to back videos. I jump a Spectre 170 loaded about 1:1.24.

I believe in the advice that if you have two rigs, they should have the same equipment in them so you have only one set of flight techniques, one set of emergency procedures.

The only beef with my Spectre is how heavy the front riser inputs have to be. I do a 90 degree carving front riser final release to toggles landing. I do not (read cannot) run out my landings.

I'm tempted to switch to a Sabre II because it is supposed to require lighter inputs, and also opens as soft a a Spectre. I also need soft openings so I can jump all day and not wake up feeling like I got run over.

I haven't jumped one, because I believe you shouldn't jump anything you aren't prepared to buy. So what do you think? Switch to the Sabre II or just get another Spectre?

JP

[jceman 1]

Why would you want to have a 7-cell canopy in one rig and a 9-cell in the other?

Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money.

Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them?

[Jimbo 0]

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I believe in the advice that if you have two rigs, they should have the same equipment in them so you have only one set of flight techniques, one set of emergency procedures.

You've managed to scare me with this one, why would you need two different sets of emergency procedures for two different canopies?

Please explain.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[PhreeZone 20]

There is a difference, but what seems to be an issue here is this: "I do not (read cannot) run out my landings." Even after some speed (90 rapid riser and doubles) and some down winders on my Spectre there was never a time I could'nt get it shut down for a walk out landing. Why can't you shut it down?


Honestly.. I've seen people with sub 100 FX's in their main rig and Sabre 150+'s in their second. The canopies are going to wear differently, and there for fly differently unless you get Dacron lines on both of them.

Do you really want to dump a ton of money on a canopy that will only get used when the first is down, so only really a couple of times a weekend? If you are doing tandem video unless someone else edits it there is plenty of time to have someone pack while you edit. And teams rarely meet back to back all day.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[indyz 1]

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There is a difference, but what seems to be an issue here is this: "I do not (read cannot) run out my landings." Even after some speed (90 rapid riser and doubles) and some down winders on my Spectre there was never a time I could'nt get it shut down for a walk out landing. Why can't you shut it down?

I read that as he needs a canopy that he can shut down every time, because running out a landing would present some sort of problem.

[Deuce 1]

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I read that as he needs a canopy that he can shut down every time, because running out a landing would present some sort of problem.

Yeah, sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I want to shut all the way down every time.

I'm going to have two rigs that match, same gear. I'd sell my current Spectre and get two Sabre 2's or keep the curent spectre and get another one, or two 150's.

One of my mentors lost a friend who did big canopy inputs into his second, hot rod, canopy after getting cut off in the pattern and cratered himself to death. Apparently it was clear to them that he was flying the hot rod thinking it was the mule.

Any former Spectre pilots who can list their personal advantages/disadvantages of the Sabre II over a same sized Spectre? Openings and ability to shut it down to a no run landing?

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[PhreeZone 20]

Coming from a former Spectre jumper and a Sabre2 demoer... the Saber2 has way more glide and was tricky to get a no step landing. The canopy just seemed to want to keep its forward speed up untill to get your feet under you and get moving...(even with ground temps in the upper 40's) like most loaded 9 cells. The Spectre was able to have a 2 or 3 step walk out almost every jump (other then the biffed ones learning to fly ZP) A toggle stab on the Spectre kills its forward speed where as the Sabre2 the same move develops a lot of instant lift.

If you need to have a no run landing then a high speed approach will need to be sarcificed on a loaded 9 cell on no/low wind days. Its just all part of the game.. I'm yet to see a loaded up 9 cell pilot come in fast on a no wind day and not have to take at least 5 steps. 7 Cell pilots can usually kill the speed but 9's can't. I've watched the pond swoopers at WFFC first skid then run their legs off, I've seen quite a few 3000+ jumpers choose to slide out landings since they can't run as fast as thier canopies go and I've seen a 3000+ jumper run out some fast landings but I'm yet to see some one surf 100 feet and not have to at last jog a bit on those no wind days.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Satan666 0]

Stop doing 90 degree turns on a approach and building up speed....That will help shut it down.
You also said you want to jump all day without hard openings, then a Sabre would be my last choice (I owned one and know from experiance, that goes for the Sabre2 as well)

[christoofar 0]

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Coming from a former Spectre jumper and a Sabre2 demoer... the Saber2 has way more glide and was tricky to get a no step landing. The canopy just seemed to want to keep its forward speed up untill to get your feet under you and get moving...(even with ground temps in the upper 40's) like most loaded 9 cells. The Spectre was able to have a 2 or 3 step walk out almost every jump (other then the biffed ones learning to fly ZP) A toggle stab on the Spectre kills its forward speed where as the Sabre2 the same move develops a lot of instant lift.

Yup, I agree. Having a 1.2 Sabre2 as a first purchase canopy and jumping several Spectres and Triathlons, I would have to say Sabre2 is very responsive, and has a lot of forward drive even when the winds kick up... like you see with Cobalt/Stilleto/etc.

Sharp moves on the toggles on the Sabre2 ss a no-no on this canopy. Throwing the toggles down will cause the canopy to pop up... good if you are landing uphill but most of the time I would avoid doing that. On no-wind days I bring the toggles down, stop, then down some more, stop, and keep doing that in rapid succession to keep the canopy planing out flat. Be prepared to sprint like a mofo if you are not used to this kind of speed and you have to land downwind.

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[Deuce 1]

Thanks all, for the feedback, here and in PM's.

I'm sticking with the Spectre. I'm a crappy packer with crappy feet who likes to do 10 jumps a day so I need soft openings.

JP

[alan 1]

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Stop doing 90 degree turns on a approach and building up speed....That will help shut it down

That is a myth. You can do a straight in approach at 30 mph or front riser carve at 60 mph, but either way the canopy still crosses a speed threshhold when slowing down. The canopy doing 60 still slows down to 30 during the approach and from that point on flies just like the canopy that did a straight in at 30.

alan

[Phil 0]

I own both a 150 Spectre and a 150 Sabre2. I have about 90 Jumps on the Spectre and 60 Jumps on the Sabre2

If packed right, the Sabre2 will give you some very soft openings like you're used to from the Spectre. I have not been spanked yet.

You will find the Sabre2 almost boring, because the Spectre is a lot more agressive in turns. Yes you will have to adabt your landing habits, as the Sabre2 has a flatter glide. A two step landing is possible, but will take some getting used to.

If I would have to choose again, I would take an other Spectre. I can fly that thing and park it anywhere I want. It took me a bit longer to do the same with the Sabre2. Anyway great canopy and safe.

I would suggest to try a sabre2 first - maybe load it higher than the Spectre to get a similar performance.

good luck

...
..
.

how high can you fly with broken wings ...
life's a journey not a destination

[Satan666 0]

Well if that's a myth why bother doing hook turns for the additional speed to do swoops if the same effect is achieved on a normal approach?????
He would still have that initial 60 MPH before slowing to the approach speed of 30 MPH which is what the guy doesn't want.
So instead of shutting down an initial 60 mph approach he only has to deal with a 30mph approach, or have I miss understood you on this one??

[alan 1]

You have misunderstood. The reason we do a speed building turn has nothing to do with the flare or shutting down. The turn and resulting speed only serve to increase the surf. How much the surf is increased greatly depends on how efficiently the pilot flies the canopy. The point is, that whether the canopy is doing 70, 60, 50, 40 or 30 on approach, at some point all of them slow past the 30 threshold which is close to what the majority of sport mains in use today do on a straight in approach. Once they reach that point, they fly flare and land the same for a given canopy. You don't shut the canopy down at 60, you surf it and bleed off the excess speed. Deuce's problem doesn't lie with the initial speed, it is with his flare technique and how to fly at the low end. I usually advise people with new canopies or little experience to make a few high hop and pops and do a lot of flying in brakes and flaring to learn the slow flight characteristcs of their canopy. I can do a 360 degree front riser turn onto final under my 89 X-Mod VX (at about 2.45#/ft2) and be doing close to 80 mph at the bottom of the recovery arc and after over 200' of surf it slows down to under 30, where I start shutting it down. On a hot light or no wind day, I can slide or run it out in 5 or 6 steps. I can fly the same canopy doing a straight in approach where it normally is going about 40 or 45 in full flight and use the same technique, except now the surf is only 50 or 60 feet but the canopy slows to under 30 and I shut it down just the same. I don't think Deuce ever stated he didn't want or had a problem the extra initial speed, he just said he has a problem running out the landings and he'll always have that problem until he learns the slow speed flight. Anyone having trouble shutting down their canopy should take a second look at the trim and brake setings, perhaps re-evalute their piloting skills and wing loading, or maybe get some video and coaching. You should not need to do a speed building manuever in order to get a good landing. If you can't get a good landing, with a decent little surf, on a straight in approach, then you really should not be doing anything approaching a high performance landing. So, while Deuce perhaps shouldn't be doing the turn, simply stopping it will make him a little safer, it won't improve his landings until he learns how to fly the canopy at the low end of its' speed range. I hope this makes a little more sense to you.

alan

[christoofar 0]

alan... please man.. break those paragraphs!

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.