Kirils 1 #1 June 12, 2002 I was approached by another jumper yesterday and they expressed concern about my jumping a Chaos 21. They said1 person had been killed and 4 seriously injured using this canopy and they talked about it not being stable and having a tendency to collapse. It's the best thing I've ever jumped... but I'm spooked... does anyone have the whole truth???Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrHixxx 0 #2 June 13, 2002 My 98 has been rock solid with great openings from the start. It is definately my favorite canopy. I hope to demo a 27 cell when they are available.I had heard about the one fatality, but not the other 4 serious injuries. Do you have any details?thanx, Hixxx"Woman... Wu -mon... Whoa - man! She stole my heart and my cat" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrHixxx 0 #3 June 13, 2002 I forgot to mention. I have jumped it in some pretty nasty winds too.-Hixxx"Woman... Wu -mon... Whoa - man! She stole my heart and my cat" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #4 June 13, 2002 The stories were here-say, no details. I was just concerned...I shot off a letter to inquiry to PA. I hope it's not a Crossfire type problem...Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #5 June 13, 2002 Read the results of the Red Bull Blade Raid in Parachutist. They mention that a few X-braced canopies collapsided and slightly injured the jumpers. The article does not mention the canopy (good thing) so that gives you a starting point in talking to PA/Icarus/PD if you want more details or questions answered.If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #6 June 13, 2002 Actually the article does state the canopies that had issues."Vladi Pesa from Florida got the worst of it when 3 cells on one side of the PD Velocity folded in near the bottom of the course. The canopy instantly re-inflated and he negotiated the remainder of the course safely.""The first competitor on load five, South African Andy Anderson, came over the ridge at the top of the course and started getting bounced around. He was managing to fly through it until the third gate, when rotors over the trees hit the far end of his Xaos 21, collapsing it almost from end cell to end cell. He slammed into the ground."The person after him had no problems and they didn't say what kind of canopy."Moments later is cousin, Andy Farringotn entered the gates. At the same spot where Anderson had trouble, Farrington's Xaos27 suffered even more sever and complete collapse than Anderson's canopy slamming him hard onto the mountain."Anderson had broken ribs and Farrington was ok.You can read the whole article in the May 2002 Parachutist, page 30 - 33btw....after watching this fire here in CO I can definately understand how unpredictable the wind can be going threw trees Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eames 0 #7 June 13, 2002 I have ~300 jumps on my Xaos-21s 98 (2.39 lbs/sq ft). I haven't had a problem yet: no collapsing, nothing unpredictable, I've found them stable in every mode of flight. I've jumped in bad turbulence, I've jumped in winds of 15 gusting to 25 (stupid on any canopy), I've jumped in Perris next to dust devils (not intentionally, of course), I've flown through many a canopy wake playing with friends.It was a wake-up call when Bob died at Louisa though. He was jumping a Xaos-21 68. It goes to show that any canopy can collapse in the right conditions. I mean, these are just pieces of nylon above our heads. I spoke with a lady whose Triathalon collapsed in the same spot. Scary. As for those who believe that a canopy collapsing on a wind ridden ski slope between two walls of evergreen trees is some kind of surprise... well, wake up.If you're really worried about it, and anyone who relies on a pressurized piece of nylon to save his ass should be (airlocks, cross-braces, double-diamonds, or otherwise), then don't jump in bad turbulence. Don't jump in high winds. Don't swoop down a mountain face between the tree lines. Ground yourself when you see dust devils. Use some common sense.Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #8 June 13, 2002 Jason, I agree. My Chaos has the best handling chacteristicsin turbulance and gusts of any canopy I've jumped. I trust the reports are just anomalies. Thanks!Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #9 June 13, 2002 I received my response from Percision today:The jumper that approached you with his concerns is passing along heresay. It's called rumor-mill-out-of-control. There has been a jumper killed jumping a Xaos 21, but the details of this incident all point to very gusty winds and nothing to do with the stability of the canopy. For example, the dz had earlier experienced a Triathlon collapse(but fortunately re-inflated with no injury) in the exact spot that the jumper with the Xaos did. The winds that day were like 15 with frequent gusts to 25 or more, and I've been told that this dz in VA is known for turbulence issues. Also, another dz that is only 12 to 15 miles away had shut down for the day because of turbulent wind conditions. Draw your own conclusions here, but... As to the 4 other injuries, I have no idea what he's talking about. Please have this person contact me to enlighten me. Again, sounds to me like a clear case of rumor-mill-out-of-control. The acid test for any canopy's stability is this: At altitude, take your Xaos and fly it as hard and radically as you possibly can. Dive it, yank it, stall it, jerk it as hard and wildly as possible. Simulate swoop approaches, doing everything you can imagine to set it up for bad behavior. If you can't get the canopy to mis-behave, then I'd say that it's a safe bet that your canopy has no stability problems. I say this with utmost sincerity; we have had no one report any "tendency" to collapse or exhibit any suspicious flight characteristics...period. Like I say, at high altitude, try your best to get your canopy to collapse. Let me know your findings. Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #10 June 14, 2002 I put 2 jumps on my formerly new Xaos98 loaded at 1.8+It felt incredibly unstable to me.. 2 jumps was enough to send it back.. Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eames 0 #11 June 14, 2002 QuoteIt felt incredibly unstable to me.. 2 jumps was enough to send it back..Tell me, in your opinion, what does an unstable canopy feel like? I have quite a few jumps on a Velocity as well, and neither felt more or less "stable" than the other.Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #12 June 14, 2002 QuoteTell me, in your opinion, what does an unstable canopy feel like? Not sure if we want to be technically correct or not, but Dr Bill Von rekindled knowledge in me that I that was dead and gone years ago regarding stability. The analogy which is most often used is a marble and a bowl. If the bowl is set right side up on a table, with a marble inside of it, the marble finds its position of equilibrium. If displaced from that position of equilibrium (say, held half-way up the side of the bowl) and released, it will return to its position of equilibrium, eventually. That condition is stable. Now turn the bowl upside down, and put the marble on top. If that is the assumed position of equilibrium, what happens if the marble is displaced? Does it return to it? No. If we flick the marble, it will roll off the top of the bowl, never to return. That condition is unstable. How does that affect a parachute? If you displace a parachute from its designed condition of equilibrium, it will attempt to return to it. If you put in a discrete input, it will eventually respond by returning to equilibrium. Planing out after a toggle or riser turn are both examples of this. Obviously weather conditions and rate and number of control inputs will greatly affect the perception of stability for each individual. Hopefully we are comparing apples and apples.flyhi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eames 0 #13 June 14, 2002 QuoteIf you displace a parachute from its designed condition of equilibrium, it will attempt to return to it.That's the idea... I agree. But I'm wondering how Rhino was able to definitively determine, in two jumps, that the Xaos-21 is an unstable canopy. With enough confidence to state it on a public forum. Rhino: Did it lose pressure? Collapse? Did you lose controllability? Or were you just feeling the rigity of a cross-braced canopy? Did the whole thing seem to bounce around over your head in turbulence? Is that what you're talking about? Have you ever jumped any other cross-braced canopies?Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nws01 0 #14 June 14, 2002 Quote But I'm wondering how Rhino was able to definitively determine, in two jumps, that the Xaos-21 is an unstable canopy. 1. He is a canopy expert with 300 jumps.2. All he does is hop and pops.3. He is a canopy "student".Blue Skies,Nathan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #15 June 14, 2002 Did it lose pressure? Partially yes it did.. The canopy was shifting from the left to the right while directly over my head still flying in the same direction. To me it felt like that familiar sabre accordian over your head feeling only even worse? It was on video. At 20 feet the canopy got a mind of it's own and got VERY squirley. I got the same results from both jumps which were hop-n-pops from 13k. I very definite alarm went off inside of me saying I DON'T THINK SO. I did have the chest strap loosened and the slider down and I was flying in a lane that was at least 1000 yards downwind from any obstacles that could have caused rotors.. Other canopies were flying fine, the Xaos I had made me uncomfortable. My new crossfire feels like it flies on rails. That Xaos did not feel that way at all. The openings were nice and the bottom end was amazing on the xaos but something was off for me? That is why I got rid of it. It felt very unstable to me. I don't believe I was loading it enough?? Who knows.. That was my observation.Rhino Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #16 June 14, 2002 Rhino and I have had quite different experiences with the Chaos. I do not question his ability to evaluate canopy performance, he is detail oriented and credible in my book.In the past we have compared notes about our experience on another canopy outside this forum and our experience was very similar. I would like to encourage Rhino to re-evaluate the Chaos, but if he said he had stability problems, I believe him. It must have been an anomaly, because there are so many jumpers estatic over the Chaos. Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #17 June 14, 2002 Yes we have shared good info!! I didn't say their was anything wrong with the canopy.. I'm sure it was great. I find my crossfire2 at the same wing loading gives me quicker response in every area I am looking for. I found the toggle pressure, front riser pressure, turning response time, getting around the corner, basically everything was just a little off from what I was looking for.. Crossbraced canopies I am told just fly different?? Let's just say I am very happy with the overall performance of the crossfire2, 97 vs the Xaos98.. I don't expect to change canopies for 500-1000 jumps..Rhino Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #18 June 15, 2002 Cool... I demo a Crossfire 2 in about 2 weeks..Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
