safire-2 vs safire

[Staso 0]

can someone tell me any distinctive construction differences
between safire 2 and original one ? according to hooknswoop
the upper control lines are different in lenght after they cascade.
anything else ?
stan.
--
Go fast ! Then go even faster ...

[Hooknswoop 19]

It isn't distinctive, but the Safire2's are sized the same as the rest of Icarus's canopies now, which is the same as PD. There are other differences, but they are even harder to detect.
Hook

[Staso 0]

does that mean that safire2-149 will be aproximately like
sabre2-150 in size ? and safire2-149 is bigger then safire-
149 ? i though that crossfire2, safire2 are still measured
icarus-style, don't they ? is there any official source of info
on that ?
stan.
--
Go fast ! Then go even faster ...

[Hooknswoop 19]

Right, Safire1, 149 is larger than a Safire2, 149, which is 1 sq ft smaller than a Sabre 150. Crossfires were always measured PD style. Only the Safire1 and the Omega are differrent. For offical, e-mail Icarus.
Hook

[Staso 0]

***Right, Safire1, 149 is larger than a Safire2, 149, which is 1 sq ft smaller than a Sabre [\quote]
you meant safire2 was bigger. and safire2-149 is 1 sq.ft.
smaller then sabre150. safire1-149 is more like sabre140-ish.
i emailed Simon from Icarus regrding the whole labeling thing,
but haven't received anything back yet.
stan.
--
Go fast ! Then go even faster ...

[Hooknswoop 19]

Oops, right, that's what I meant :-) Safire2, 149 is larger than Safire1, 149, and Safire2 149 is 1 sq ft smaller than Sabre 150
Hook

[Staso 0]

ok :) i though i was going crazy with all this sizes and labels :)
stan.
--
Go fast ! Then go even faster ...

[GroundZero 0]

Let me explain how we established the sizing of the Original Safire at Precision.
The base file for the Safire was initially labeled "Safire 125". We cut and built that canopy. Upon completion, we measured the canopy and compared it to other canopies... Initially we measure chord at the center cell and measured span at the center point on the chord. This canopy had identical measurements to the Sabre 135 (rectangular) and Stilletto 135 (elliptical) and Batwing 134 (elliptical) at these points. We renamed the canopy... Safire 135. You can see that canopy here...

http://www.icaruscanopies.com/canopies/Safire/index.htm
That's Ray Williams landing it. The solid blue canopy...
Canopies can be measured in many different ways... sometimes the marketing arm makes a decision that may not agree with the design arm... Upon release of the Crossfire, the original Crossfire file was titled "135". A decision was made to call this canopy a "122". Terrific decision for marketing. The canopy was immediately successful. Imagine the jumper landing his "122", if all things are equal, his first words are... WOW!, my 122 lands as easily as my old 135!
What a nice canopy!
Every jumper owes it to him(her)self to lay out your current canopy and put the other manufacturers' canopies on top of it... You'll get a better understanding of actual size. Area is span x chord. Gets a bit trickier to measure when you consider elliptical canopies. Currently we do not have a standard for measuring area... PIA does and continues to address this issue.
Just for fun, If you have a version one and a version "2" of any canopy, (in the "same" size), lay one on the top of another and report your findings here. To measure, be sure to pull each with equal tension.
This needs to be a separate thread... someone jump in there and start the "canopy area measurement" thread.
Some canopies seem to fly "Bigger", some canopies are bigger. We need to establish a uniform method of measuring canopies (with respect to area and pack volume also!) As we attempt to set standards, be fully aware that a number is simply a number.
Chris
p.s. I currently jump our new Soax ARL sq.ft. canopy! and it flies even better than my old Xaos LRA sq. ft. canopy!

[rmsmith 1]

Quote

This needs to be a separate thread... someone jump in there and start the "canopy area measurement" thread.
Some canopies seem to fly "Bigger", some canopies are bigger. We need to establish a uniform method of measuring canopies (with respect to area and pack volume also!) As we attempt to set standards, be fully aware that a number is simply a number.

Area is simple to calculate with a CAD program, or you could simply get close measuring each cell group. Those of you familiar with calculus can do it easier yet. I'd use the canopy's lower surface too.

[Hooknswoop 19]

"p.s. I currently jump our new Soax ARL sq.ft. canopy! and it flies even better than my old Xaos LRA sq. ft. canopy!"
You hooked your Xaos up backwards? :-)
Hook

[billvon 3,111]

>Terrific decision for marketing. The canopy was immediately successful. Imagine
> the jumper landing his "122", if all things are equal, his first words are... WOW!,
> my 122 lands as easily as my old 135!
Terrific decision for marketing, not so good for jumpers. Further imagine this guy, who can land his "122" as well as his old 135, puts 50 jumps on it. Still lands great, but he would like to go faster. Surely he is now ready for a Stiletto 107! After all, the previous "downsize" was a piece of cake, and he is fully competent flying the "smaller" size, so why not downsize again?
People jumping small canopies without the training and experience to fly them is one of the leading, if not the leading, cause of fatalities in this sport. I hope, in the future, we don't mislead people in terms of canopy sizing - we have enough problems with people jumping small canopies even if they _do_ know what size they are jumping.
-bill von

[GroundZero 0]

Exactly my concern and reason for protesting so loudly...
Seems the guy in Marketing has never dealt with students, etc...
Chris

[Engovatov 0]

>The base file for the Safire was initially labeled "Safire 125".
It was stated some time ago that the difference is due to the difference between bottom skin and upper skin area - PD measuring the bottom skin, while Safire measured by the upper skin fabric area.
May it explain the difference that you just inadvertingly compared bottom to the top?

[weid14 0]

or maybe it was "projected" surface area, i.e. area of the canopy loaded vs. it laying flat??

• Quote

[GroundZero 0]

no
Chris

[GroundZero 0]

"projected"... marketing buzz word....

[Engovatov 0]

> no
But there IS a difference in Safire sizing. My Safire 160, packs, flies and being put on top is very much like 150 Sabre.
Billvon measured it carefully and reported it here. Many other people did it. They can't be ALL wrong.
I am puzzled.

[weid14 0]

so you're saying that there isnt a difference in square feet over your head in flight than laying flat on the ground?

[GroundZero 0]

Let me ask one question...
How is canopy size measured? (area, square footage...)
I look forward to all replies.
Sincerely,
Chris

[ernokaikkonen 0]

>"projected"... marketing buzz word....
Not really. As explained in "PIA Technical Standard 100, Standardized Nomenclature for Ram-Airs":
"Projected Area: The area of the inflated canopy as view from above, perpendicular to the chord line at the centerline of the parachute. Due to canopy curvature and cell inflation bulging the projected area is always smaller than the planform area."
and...
"Planform Area: Defined as the product of the finished chord times the finished span of the canopy."
What I don't know is whether manufacturers measure the area using the projected area or the planform area, and if they are using the planform area, are they measuring the top or the bottom skin?
And what about ellipticals(ie. practically all modern canopies)? You can't just measure span x chord because of the tapered corners. And the amount of taper varies from one canopy to another...
Anyone with any REAL info may chime in anytime...
Erno

[Engovatov 0]

> How is canopy size measured? (area, square footage...)
> I look forward to all replies.
A dominant company on the market comes up with one solution, and others do tug along, so that some consistency in such an important question as loading selection is observed.
When some other company thinks they know better, and come forward with some different measure, people get tired of saying "I have XXX, but it is really YYY for 95+% of other canopies", so that this company gives up, and starts measuring just like that other 95+%..
Good enough?
;-)