GrumpySmurf 0 #1 May 6, 2002 [RANT]You don't even need to demo to figure out who to do business with - the demo process itself pretty much shows you which canopy manufacturers want your business. Case in point: I'm in the process of demoing canopies from different manufacturers, I won't mention names protect the innocent/guilty. But here's how it has gone so far:I sent a series of emails to manufacturers 2 months ago to give them a heads up that I wanted to demo.Over the past 3 weeks:Manufacturer A: Sends me a canopy the day after I tell them I am ready to demo. The two weekends of the demo, the weather sucked and I only got 3 jumps in, I related this to the manufacturer, they said, "Keep it for another week, no biggie. You need to jump the heck out of it to decide if you like it, and make sure to try other canopies from our competitors." Weekend 3, the weather was great and I got 12 additional jumps. The canopy was great. I wrote the manufacturer back, thanked them greatly and made sure they knew I wanted to try one size smaller in a month or so, when I finalize a decision to order. I may not have been the most important customer in the world to them, but they certainly made me feel like it.Manufacturer B: 3 weeks late in getting me the canopy, due to a dealer holding onto it too long and lying about having it. I figure I would give them the benfit of the doubt, since I did want to give thier canopy a fair try to see if it lived up to the promises. The dealer then sends the canopy directly to me via the FREAKIN' MAIL (not UPS or FedEx - THE US MAIL FOR GAWDS SAKES!) - Strike 1! The box shows up this afternoon beat up, but the canopy looked fine - ok so far. In the box, some ad's and fluff - but no manual - Strike 2. I hook the canopy up, the risers could use hard inserts (if you are sending out ellipticals as demos, put hard inserts in your risers, guys - one of my former instructors almost died from a spun up elliptical she couldn't cut away from due to a lack of hard inserts), but I can give them a break on that - I just won't test behavior in line twists. I write the manufacturer today asking when they wanted the main back, since I figure the demo schedule is shot to hell for it - I figure I'd give them a chance to butter me up a bit and reply with, "Hmm, we're sorry for our distributor being such a pain in the ass - we'll cover the shipping or keep it for 3 weeks to really see it's the best canopy on the planet" ...instead they say, "We need it back by May 13th" which means to get it back to them in time, I can't jump it this weekend (unless I FedEx overnight it, which would run nearly $100 in shipping) - basically because THIER dealer sent the canopy in the FREAKIN' MAIL, I have to cover the shipping and not even get to jump it once.Some may say, why fault the manufactuer for something the dealer did? Because I went to the manufacturer to get the demo, not the dealer. This shows me how much the manufacturer wants my business - since they should pick better dealers, or have leaned on the dealer alot harder to get me the canopy - or if all of that was impossible, went out of thier way to make sure I had enough time to try the canopy out and forgot about the problems with getting the canopy to try. Christ, dealing with freakin' Porsche was less painful than this!I'm not mentioning names, please don't ask...since I am dealing with about 4 manufacturers at the moment, I figure the guilty/innocent are *somewhat* protected. Unless of course you jump with me, then you're gonna know.Like I said, you don't even need to fly a canopy to know what you are getting into. [/RANT]*deep breath* Ok, I'm done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diver123 0 #2 May 6, 2002 I'm not going to go off here, but I will say this: Over the past 10 years I've noticed a very drastic decline in customer service in general. Not just in skydiving, but all customer oriented companies... Sorry about your luck..."pull high! It's lower than you think..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #3 May 6, 2002 One thing that you need to be aware of is that not everyone sends out Risers with hard inserts. There was a sub 100 canopy this weekend at the DZ from the Factory... Factory A that you were talking about with no inserts and it was elliptical. And only one company I know of sends out the full manual with a canopy. So while you think they are major points... not many companies do this.If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #4 May 6, 2002 QuoteThe dealer then sends the canopy directly to me via the FREAKIN' MAIL (not UPS or FedEx - THE US MAIL FOR GAWDS SAKES!) - Strike 1!What's the matter with shipping you the canopy via the USPS? They take the box from point A to point B as easily and often less expensively than UPS (Who's customer service sucks more) and certainly less than FedEx. Let it go.QuoteStrike 2. I hook the canopy up, the risers could use hard inserts (if you are sending out ellipticals as demos, put hard inserts in your risers, guys - one of my former instructors almost died from a spun up elliptical she couldn't cut away from due to a lack of hard inserts), but I can give them a break on that - I just won't test behavior in line twists. It's nice to see that you won't hold this against them, though it appears that you are. Will the risers even hold hard inserts? QuoteI write the manufacturer today asking when they wanted the main back, since I figure the demo schedule is shot to hell for it - I figure I'd give them a chance to butter me up a bit and reply with, "Hmm, we're sorry for our distributor being such a pain in the ass - we'll cover the shipping or keep it for 3 weeks to really see it's the best canopy on the planet" ...instead they say, "We need it back by May 13th" which means to get it back to them in time, I can't jump it this weekend (unless I FedEx overnight it, which would run nearly $100 in shipping) - basically because THIER dealer sent the canopy in the FREAKIN' MAIL, I have to cover the shipping and not even get to jump it once.Uh. Again. There's nothing wrong with the mail. The dealer could have shipped the canopy out overnight in the US Mail, or even second day. There's no gaurantee that UPS would have gotten it there sooner or even FedEx for that matter. What I do find interesting is that you chose to email the manufacturer when you are obviously so upset. A phone call probably would have been more effective - they could have heard how upset you are and it's a bit more personal. If you don't care enough to call I'm not surprised that they don't care enough to let you keep the canopy a bit longer.Get over it.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #5 May 7, 2002 The risers were not a biggie, just limited my view of how hard I could push it - just something they may wish to consider addressing -> would be bad publicity to have someone go in on a demo from being unable to cutaway a spinner. I noticed it because I have them on my rig. Not a sore point, but something that could be addressed. As to the manuals - I would like to see it to get a feel for what they recommend about the canopy for packing, maintenance, etc- or at the very least - say where I could snag it on the web. It's the little extra things that get noticed.The thing that really set me off was the fact it was almost 3 weeks late, I have to cover the shipping cost and have it back to them in a week. They answered all my questions quickly and re-assured me the canopy will show up soon - and got me psyched to really run it through it's paces and see if it's a great as claimed..then to have the ball effectively dropped was a large disappointment. Oh well - such is life, I guess. Thankfully the market is not a monopoly.I was blowing off steam, but also (after seeing a stream of discussions about canopy manufactures and R&D dollars/ quality control) pointing out that the customer service during the demo process could make or break a string of sales - since one bad demo experience with one jumper will spread word of mouth to other jumpers who might be looking and be turned off from the manufacturer based on such. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #6 May 7, 2002 QuoteWhat's the matter with shipping you the canopy via the USPS? Because, my understanding was, the canopy is expected back 2 weeks from the date of shipping, not arrival. That allows them to schedule 2 week demo blocks effectively. I also recall being told it would be shipped FedEx 2 Day Insured and that I would be billed for that via my credit card. I wouldn't want to chance a $1,500 to $2,000 main with risers in the mail - there is a reason why FedEx charges an arm and a leg - they have an exceptional track record and are quick on claims for loss or damage (at least with our company, they do).The canopy was mailed May 1 and showed up today, May 6th, and expected back May 13th. If I hold it longer, that then delays the next guy in getting to demo it (and after waiting 3 weeks for it to show, I know how anxious one can get when it's late). Oh well. Nah I didn't take the risers personal - I debated swapping in my own risers (which have inserts) but figured they'd ticked if someone altered the set up of the equipment - I would be if I was in thier shoes. I'll mess with altering my own gear, not someone elses.All of our conversations have been via email, since long distance calls from the office are a major no-no (and since my employer has laid off 50% of the staff in the last 14 months - I'm in no hurry to pop up on the radar screen ).No biggie, I'll ship it back UPS or FedEx, make sure it shows up before Monday, send them the tracking number and start dialogue with the next manufacturer - maybe with my main after the next, I'll look 'em up again. Shigata ga nai, neh?Such is life, is it not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #7 May 7, 2002 I think I know who you're talking about. Whether or not I've got the company names right is irrelevant. I'm now telling my story, and I will name names.I've posted before that I had extreme dificulties in getting a Demo from Atair. My dificulties were even worse because I never actually got a demo. I gave up after a month.I also had very good experiences with PD demo's. I knew that with the Stiletto I'd get taken care of. If Atair was willing to ignore me when I had a big wad of cash in my hand, I'd hate to imagine how they'd treat me after the sale._AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #8 May 7, 2002 >As to the manuals - I would like to see it to get a feel for what they recommend about the canopy for packing, maintenance, etc- or at the very least - say where I could snag it on the web. It's the little extra things that get noticed.As for this one... its covered in the leaflets if you look at them. I've had hit and miss service with Atair too, PD was good, but I had to call twice to get a demo date since they wer'nt sure how the schedule would work out. Atair once shipped me a brand new not even on risers demo to make sure I had it in time for a trip. All it took was a phone call and a voice mail and we worked it out. As for the mailing... I had a demo canopy delivered to me on 9/1 ... I was going to drop it in the mail the morning of 9/11 before everything then I forgot about it. I called and made sure everyone was safe at Atair since they are in NYC and explained the situation a few days later. They told me to keep it till everything was back to normal and I should jump it another weekend. I had it a full month when I returned it.Just try and call to get a demo from Big Air, PA, Icarus or the big kicker PISA.... PD has the best and most organized demo program, but what else should you expect when they have 70 demo canoies of one style canopy? Its clear PD sets the bench mark in demos but when you pay 1800-2500 for a canopy, I'd hope some of that money was going for Customer Service. If I was dealing with a smaller company like Big Air, Icarus or Atair, I'd be more patient and try and work something out rather then just giving up.If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #9 May 7, 2002 Quotewhen you pay 1800-2500 for a canopyIf you're paying that much for a canopy you're getting royally ripped off.pull & flare,lisa---On the other hand...you have different fingers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jceman 1 #10 May 7, 2002 QuoteIf you're paying that much for a canopy you're getting royally ripped off.A-frickin'-men, Lisa.When I was in demo mode, I called the manufacturers and got to know the people running the demo programs. I demoed a shitload of canopies, and without fail, I got what I was promised when I was promised it. I don't think I was anything special or even lucky, just did the networking and my research beforehand.If you have a problem with using the phones at work for long distance, there is a thing called a calling card. All that shows on the company phone log is a call to an 800 number; keep the calls to a reasonable number and you should have no problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #11 May 7, 2002 >If you're paying that much for a canopy you're getting royally ripped off.Believe it or not I've seen a few people pay MSRP since they did'nt know better...If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cobaltdan 0 #12 May 7, 2002 hi mark,the demo sent to you was not sent by atair, but by eg sky technologies. funny, we offered to directly ship you one immediately with no risers as we were waiting for an order of risers to be delivered (with hard housings). the canopy from eg was supposed to ship via fedex in a timely manner but since it was not being sent by us this out of our control.we are generaly flexible on allowing people to keep canopies longer, especially if they were not able to jump them enough. heather tells me she simply relayed the due back date to you based on 2 day shiping to you, she made an oversight in not figuring the longer deliver for the postal delivery, but if you had simple asked to keep it longer she would have of course said ok. i would understand the post if you asked and were denied, but you made no request.my appologies for the canopy from eg sky arriving late, contact heather or stacy in the office and arrange to keep it for the full 2 weeks. sincerely,danatair Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites polarbear 1 #13 May 8, 2002 I've had bad experiences with two major manufacturers. In the first case, I called the company, arranged for the demo, it never showed. I called them back, they said they lost my request, I made it again, arrangements were made, the canopy never showed. I gave up and bought something else.In the second case, I arranged ahead of time for the demo to ensure I could get it when I wanted. I was told "no problem, that demo isn't busy right now". Time came for me to demo it, it had been shipped to someone else and they had not shipped it back yet. I was told "we'll let you know when it comes in". I waited a couple of weeks, didn't here from them, emailed, and was told it had been shipped to someone else again. I gave up and bought something else.I realize that setting up a demo program and keeping everyone happy isn't the easiest thing to do, but I would appreciate it if a company could just say "that demo is unavailable for some time" instead of stringing me out. 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diver123 0 #2 May 6, 2002 I'm not going to go off here, but I will say this: Over the past 10 years I've noticed a very drastic decline in customer service in general. Not just in skydiving, but all customer oriented companies... Sorry about your luck..."pull high! It's lower than you think..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #3 May 6, 2002 One thing that you need to be aware of is that not everyone sends out Risers with hard inserts. There was a sub 100 canopy this weekend at the DZ from the Factory... Factory A that you were talking about with no inserts and it was elliptical. And only one company I know of sends out the full manual with a canopy. So while you think they are major points... not many companies do this.If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #4 May 6, 2002 QuoteThe dealer then sends the canopy directly to me via the FREAKIN' MAIL (not UPS or FedEx - THE US MAIL FOR GAWDS SAKES!) - Strike 1!What's the matter with shipping you the canopy via the USPS? They take the box from point A to point B as easily and often less expensively than UPS (Who's customer service sucks more) and certainly less than FedEx. Let it go.QuoteStrike 2. I hook the canopy up, the risers could use hard inserts (if you are sending out ellipticals as demos, put hard inserts in your risers, guys - one of my former instructors almost died from a spun up elliptical she couldn't cut away from due to a lack of hard inserts), but I can give them a break on that - I just won't test behavior in line twists. It's nice to see that you won't hold this against them, though it appears that you are. Will the risers even hold hard inserts? QuoteI write the manufacturer today asking when they wanted the main back, since I figure the demo schedule is shot to hell for it - I figure I'd give them a chance to butter me up a bit and reply with, "Hmm, we're sorry for our distributor being such a pain in the ass - we'll cover the shipping or keep it for 3 weeks to really see it's the best canopy on the planet" ...instead they say, "We need it back by May 13th" which means to get it back to them in time, I can't jump it this weekend (unless I FedEx overnight it, which would run nearly $100 in shipping) - basically because THIER dealer sent the canopy in the FREAKIN' MAIL, I have to cover the shipping and not even get to jump it once.Uh. Again. There's nothing wrong with the mail. The dealer could have shipped the canopy out overnight in the US Mail, or even second day. There's no gaurantee that UPS would have gotten it there sooner or even FedEx for that matter. What I do find interesting is that you chose to email the manufacturer when you are obviously so upset. A phone call probably would have been more effective - they could have heard how upset you are and it's a bit more personal. If you don't care enough to call I'm not surprised that they don't care enough to let you keep the canopy a bit longer.Get over it.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #5 May 7, 2002 The risers were not a biggie, just limited my view of how hard I could push it - just something they may wish to consider addressing -> would be bad publicity to have someone go in on a demo from being unable to cutaway a spinner. I noticed it because I have them on my rig. Not a sore point, but something that could be addressed. As to the manuals - I would like to see it to get a feel for what they recommend about the canopy for packing, maintenance, etc- or at the very least - say where I could snag it on the web. It's the little extra things that get noticed.The thing that really set me off was the fact it was almost 3 weeks late, I have to cover the shipping cost and have it back to them in a week. They answered all my questions quickly and re-assured me the canopy will show up soon - and got me psyched to really run it through it's paces and see if it's a great as claimed..then to have the ball effectively dropped was a large disappointment. Oh well - such is life, I guess. Thankfully the market is not a monopoly.I was blowing off steam, but also (after seeing a stream of discussions about canopy manufactures and R&D dollars/ quality control) pointing out that the customer service during the demo process could make or break a string of sales - since one bad demo experience with one jumper will spread word of mouth to other jumpers who might be looking and be turned off from the manufacturer based on such. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #6 May 7, 2002 QuoteWhat's the matter with shipping you the canopy via the USPS? Because, my understanding was, the canopy is expected back 2 weeks from the date of shipping, not arrival. That allows them to schedule 2 week demo blocks effectively. I also recall being told it would be shipped FedEx 2 Day Insured and that I would be billed for that via my credit card. I wouldn't want to chance a $1,500 to $2,000 main with risers in the mail - there is a reason why FedEx charges an arm and a leg - they have an exceptional track record and are quick on claims for loss or damage (at least with our company, they do).The canopy was mailed May 1 and showed up today, May 6th, and expected back May 13th. If I hold it longer, that then delays the next guy in getting to demo it (and after waiting 3 weeks for it to show, I know how anxious one can get when it's late). Oh well. Nah I didn't take the risers personal - I debated swapping in my own risers (which have inserts) but figured they'd ticked if someone altered the set up of the equipment - I would be if I was in thier shoes. I'll mess with altering my own gear, not someone elses.All of our conversations have been via email, since long distance calls from the office are a major no-no (and since my employer has laid off 50% of the staff in the last 14 months - I'm in no hurry to pop up on the radar screen ).No biggie, I'll ship it back UPS or FedEx, make sure it shows up before Monday, send them the tracking number and start dialogue with the next manufacturer - maybe with my main after the next, I'll look 'em up again. Shigata ga nai, neh?Such is life, is it not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #7 May 7, 2002 I think I know who you're talking about. Whether or not I've got the company names right is irrelevant. I'm now telling my story, and I will name names.I've posted before that I had extreme dificulties in getting a Demo from Atair. My dificulties were even worse because I never actually got a demo. I gave up after a month.I also had very good experiences with PD demo's. I knew that with the Stiletto I'd get taken care of. If Atair was willing to ignore me when I had a big wad of cash in my hand, I'd hate to imagine how they'd treat me after the sale._AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #8 May 7, 2002 >As to the manuals - I would like to see it to get a feel for what they recommend about the canopy for packing, maintenance, etc- or at the very least - say where I could snag it on the web. It's the little extra things that get noticed.As for this one... its covered in the leaflets if you look at them. I've had hit and miss service with Atair too, PD was good, but I had to call twice to get a demo date since they wer'nt sure how the schedule would work out. Atair once shipped me a brand new not even on risers demo to make sure I had it in time for a trip. All it took was a phone call and a voice mail and we worked it out. As for the mailing... I had a demo canopy delivered to me on 9/1 ... I was going to drop it in the mail the morning of 9/11 before everything then I forgot about it. I called and made sure everyone was safe at Atair since they are in NYC and explained the situation a few days later. They told me to keep it till everything was back to normal and I should jump it another weekend. I had it a full month when I returned it.Just try and call to get a demo from Big Air, PA, Icarus or the big kicker PISA.... PD has the best and most organized demo program, but what else should you expect when they have 70 demo canoies of one style canopy? Its clear PD sets the bench mark in demos but when you pay 1800-2500 for a canopy, I'd hope some of that money was going for Customer Service. If I was dealing with a smaller company like Big Air, Icarus or Atair, I'd be more patient and try and work something out rather then just giving up.If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #9 May 7, 2002 Quotewhen you pay 1800-2500 for a canopyIf you're paying that much for a canopy you're getting royally ripped off.pull & flare,lisa---On the other hand...you have different fingers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jceman 1 #10 May 7, 2002 QuoteIf you're paying that much for a canopy you're getting royally ripped off.A-frickin'-men, Lisa.When I was in demo mode, I called the manufacturers and got to know the people running the demo programs. I demoed a shitload of canopies, and without fail, I got what I was promised when I was promised it. I don't think I was anything special or even lucky, just did the networking and my research beforehand.If you have a problem with using the phones at work for long distance, there is a thing called a calling card. All that shows on the company phone log is a call to an 800 number; keep the calls to a reasonable number and you should have no problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #11 May 7, 2002 >If you're paying that much for a canopy you're getting royally ripped off.Believe it or not I've seen a few people pay MSRP since they did'nt know better...If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #12 May 7, 2002 hi mark,the demo sent to you was not sent by atair, but by eg sky technologies. funny, we offered to directly ship you one immediately with no risers as we were waiting for an order of risers to be delivered (with hard housings). the canopy from eg was supposed to ship via fedex in a timely manner but since it was not being sent by us this out of our control.we are generaly flexible on allowing people to keep canopies longer, especially if they were not able to jump them enough. heather tells me she simply relayed the due back date to you based on 2 day shiping to you, she made an oversight in not figuring the longer deliver for the postal delivery, but if you had simple asked to keep it longer she would have of course said ok. i would understand the post if you asked and were denied, but you made no request.my appologies for the canopy from eg sky arriving late, contact heather or stacy in the office and arrange to keep it for the full 2 weeks. sincerely,danatair Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
polarbear 1 #13 May 8, 2002 I've had bad experiences with two major manufacturers. In the first case, I called the company, arranged for the demo, it never showed. I called them back, they said they lost my request, I made it again, arrangements were made, the canopy never showed. I gave up and bought something else.In the second case, I arranged ahead of time for the demo to ensure I could get it when I wanted. I was told "no problem, that demo isn't busy right now". Time came for me to demo it, it had been shipped to someone else and they had not shipped it back yet. I was told "we'll let you know when it comes in". I waited a couple of weeks, didn't here from them, emailed, and was told it had been shipped to someone else again. I gave up and bought something else.I realize that setting up a demo program and keeping everyone happy isn't the easiest thing to do, but I would appreciate it if a company could just say "that demo is unavailable for some time" instead of stringing me out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
