lummy 4 #26 May 9, 2002 QuoteShould be thinking more in the Triathlon, Spectre, Omega range.. Those canopies fly slower and promote learning SLOW SPEED FLIGHT handling7 cells are slower? I was under the understanding that 7 cells have less of a glide and sink faster than a 9 cell which doesn't equate into SLOWER....One shot... HEY!!! Mas Tequila!!!!Two Shots HEY HEY!!!!Three Shots....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #27 May 9, 2002 >I don't think that such a large stilleto with such a low wingloading would be such> a huge problem. Do NOT underload Stilettos! I once jumped a 1:1 loaded stiletto and the flight was downright scary. It behaved about as well in turbulence as my old Nova did. I think this is due to their flattish trim - they need a heavier load to generate enough speed to keep them stable and inflated.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #28 May 9, 2002 >Probably shouldn't even be considering a stiletto. Should be thinking more in the >Triathlon, Spectre, Omega range.. Those canopies fly slower and promote> learning SLOW SPEED FLIGHT handling.They fly no slower than any other canopy their size. 7 cell canopies do not fly slower than their 9 cell counterparts, they just have less of a glide. (Even this is not 100% true.) The canopies you listed tend to be more docile, and that's the key issue - they will not hurt you or kill you as quickly when you make a given mistake.> Flat turns and such.. I can flat turn under my crossfire109 but not like I could> under the Triathlon150.. Practice until you can. Any canopy can be safely flat turned, and the more flare power it has, the flatter the turn can be.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #29 May 9, 2002 Slower forward speed.. And yes slower at lower wing loadings.. A Triathlon which is a square not at all elliptical is slow.. Great canopy!! Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #30 May 9, 2002 I didn't say I can't flat turn billvon, I can even on the crossfire109.. But not with as slow or with as little altitude loss as on the Triathlon150.. With the Triathlon I could turn in one spot practically and just sink in place.. The crossfire loaded doesn't like to do that as well Maybe more docile is a good way to put it.. Rhino Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #31 May 9, 2002 A Velocity, Sabre and PD 7 cell all move foward at the same speed in full flight....If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #32 May 9, 2002 no they don't.......I've jumped with equally loaded canopies while under my Triathlon.. Almost everything had a better glide and more forward speed.The Omega would outglide the Triathlon with a little more forward speed at an equal loading.. Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #33 May 9, 2002 Yes... at the same loading most canopies fly at nearly the same forward speed as any other model. Glide rate is not a factor of forward speed.Check out John LeBlanc's seminar on wing loading and its effects at http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/wingload.pdf.Taken from it: "Wing loading is the biggest determinant of speed. A Stiletto 190 is not really faster than a Sabre 190, or even a PD 190! Other aspects of performance will be different, however. (Turn rate, glide angle, etc.) These differences may influence a person’s impression of speed."If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #34 May 9, 2002 It may not be MUCH different but I have seen a difference..Seems likely that a Velocity at 1.5 would be faster than a Triathlon at 1.5 due to aerodynamics.. Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #35 May 9, 2002 The aerodynamics are the same forces on all canopies, lift, drag gravity and thrust. A lot of how much forward speed is generated is pilot skill. An ineffecent pilot will get passed every time under canopy from a more efficient pilot.If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #36 May 10, 2002 QuoteIt may not be MUCH different but I have seen a difference..You're right, rhino. John LeBlanc certainly doesn't know what he's talking about._AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #37 May 10, 2002 Hey Andy... stop it.. no personal attacks.. beside, John doesnt post here so he cant defend himslef.. lolRemsterMuff 914 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #38 May 10, 2002 Yes... at the same loading most canopies fly at nearly the same forward speed as any other model. Those were your words.. NEARLY you said. I would have to see it to believe it actually.. What I have SEEN with my own eyeballs sais otherwise. Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #39 May 10, 2002 And maybe that is how PD canopies are made? Would that apply to everything according to his seminar? Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #40 May 10, 2002 You can apply the same things in his seminar to any canopy being made today. If a jumper under a Stiletto 150 at 1.2 and a jumper under a Cobalt 150 at 1.2 open side by side, they fly forward at the same exact rate. (I've done this one). The glide rate is different, but they move forward at the same speed because of their loading. Put 2 canopies of the same loading next to each other with pilots that can fly and they fly together at the same rate pretty much reguardless of make. The Stiletto is'nt going to pull away from the other canopy and the other canopy is'nt going to go zooming by the Stiletto unless input is given from the pilot or the loadings are different.If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoltan 0 #41 May 13, 2002 Yeah.. I see this topic is popular :) many pros and contras. My final and very strong opinion is still that elliptical canopy for a student jumper is crazy stupid idea. An 1.1-1.2 loaded square zp canopy with few hundreds of jumps is just fine. Cheap, easy to pack and later you can sell it close to the price you buy it now. Remember that in the future you will jump only smaller canopies.. so it is useless to buy too big container.Too low wing load can dangerous since the wing profile of the canopy is not stable enough.Elliptical canopies require more experience because these canpoies are less forgiving for packing and pilot mistakes and because every mallfunction is more radical and more dangerous under an alliptical than under a squere one.Also important to note, that you look cool under a Stiletto only if it is loaded properly... if you jump an 1.2 loaded Stiletto, people will not say you are cool (if it is any important for you, be honest it is important for many of us) but they will say you are a snobish crazy idiot. And anyway.. be cool during the freefall to do great transitions in freefly, many points in a formation and keep safe under the canopy. z Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruno 0 #42 May 13, 2002 Try with an airspeed meter. I did with a stiletto and sabre 150. half brake speed 10 m/s (meters per second)no brake speed 14 m/sfor both canopyBruno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoltan 0 #43 May 15, 2002 and with these speds was the descent rate the same?z Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
