billvon 3,092 #26 May 2, 2002 >I agree; you should start small and then you don't need to downsize.I will never understand the basic premise that you should be flying the smallest canopy that won't kill you. Canopy design is getting more and more sophisticated every day; as a whole, parachutes are getting safer. We should not be so eager to negate those safety gains by, essentially, choosing a parachute that requires everything to go just right in order to land uninjured.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #27 May 2, 2002 On the other hand.. Me personally. I find that the smaller I go and the more performance/response I get from my canopy the easier they are to land because I am flying them more than they are flying me. I enjoy the feel, the speed, the concentration that it takes to have a smooth, nice landing..Some people might not agree, that's o.k. Am I advocating downsizing before you are ready? NOT A CHANCE IN HELL. Each person is different and has different interests and skill levels. All in all I believe people are tending to downsize a bit too quickly. If high performance canopies weren't so damned fun we wouldn't have that problem. It's like a vicious cycle. The canopies get smaller, faster, more fun, you want to go smaller, faster, have more fun..I have progresses to the point where I am in canopy flight out of learning, progression, preference.. I will be sitting at 1.8 with my crossfire97. I won't go any smaller for at least 750-1000 jumps. Rhino Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #28 May 2, 2002 QuoteI will never understand the basic premise that you should be flying the smallest canopy that won't kill you. Canopy design is getting more and more sophisticated every day; as a whole, parachutes are getting safer. We should not be so eager to negate those safety gains by, essentially, choosing a parachute that requires everything to go just right in order to land uninjured.you have to understand where that is coming from.... i.e. kallends post...Cheersmarc"it's hard to be anal with no anus!!!"-Dogma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,092 #29 May 2, 2002 >I find that the smaller I go and the more performance/response I get from my> canopy the easier they are to land because I am flying them more than they are> flying me. I enjoy the feel, the speed, the concentration that it takes to have a> smooth, nice landing..I would worry about this a little. Downsizing so you always feel excited about the landing? Seems like that could be a bad metric.>Some people might not agree, that's o.k. Am I advocating downsizing before >you are ready? NOT A CHANCE IN HELL. With the canopy you have, can you:-start the flare, drag your toes, then turn 45 degrees in either direction?-turn 90 degrees at 50-100 feet and still land safely?-land with rear risers only?-land consistently on a 10 meter target?-front riser, rear riser and toggle swoop?-land uphill and downhill?If you can't do all that (and, more importantly, if you have not _done_ all of that) then it's possible that you're not even flying the canopy you have well. If you _are_ doing all that, then it's probably a good bet that you're ready for a new canopy.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eames 0 #30 May 2, 2002 Quote-land consistently on a 10 meter target?-front riser, rear riser and toggle swoop?-land uphill and downhill?I do rear riser swoops and toggle swoops, but front riser swoops?!? That must be some kind of advanced technique! I use them for my approaches, but for the swoops? Just kiddin' with ya' Bill, I think what you're saying makes sense. Be familiar with how your canopy flies and lands using all of the available inputs and techniques in all different conditions before changing. Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #31 May 2, 2002 I could ask you the same questions Billvon?Question1, yesQuestion2, I can flat turn 180 degreesQuestion3, rear risers only? If I had to.Question4, I can hit my runway 10 out of 10 timesQuestion5, Not sure what you meant by this?Question6, no problem doing either if I had to.And I am not saying I KEEP downsizing because it keeps me on my toes. I have progressed. The more I progress the more control I have under canopy. I for one enjoy and appreciate this. I enjoy the ZONE or the concentration on landing. It is why I jump. That is where it is for me.Rhino Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eames 0 #32 May 2, 2002 QuoteQuestion2, I can flat turn 180 degreesQuestion3, rear risers only? If I had to.Question4, I can hit my runway 10 out of 10 timesQuestion6, no problem doing either if I had to.Flat turn 180 degrees? No you can't. I seriously doubt you can turn 180 degrees without losing altitude.You could land with only rear risers if you had too? How do you know? Have you tried?Anybody can hit a runway 10 out of 10 times, can you stop on a 10 meter target? How well do you really know your canopy?So you can land uphill or downhill once again if you had to? How do you know?Being overconfident under a high performance canopy is not smart.Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #33 May 2, 2002 QuoteI figured I'd put off the downsizing to a 150 for a year and see how things were going at that point. Subsequently snagged a used Safire 169 early winter (little did I know I was in fact downsizing) and am now bored with it - and thus why demoing mains. Went back to trying a Sabre2 170 demo, flies nice, but is a little sluggish compared to the Safire - though I like the glide and flare (and PD gets a solid thumbs up on customer service) - it's this sluggishness in turns and unresponsiveness to harness input that made me start wondering about a more tapered wing. This has been covered before, but did you know that the Safire you are currently flying is probably _not_ 169 sq/ft as PD would measure it? If we use the 7% rule it's going to be a little closer to 157 sq/ft (on the PD scale). The point is, that the Sabre 2 170 probably seemed a little sluggish because it's actually a larger and therefore more lightly loaded canopy than the Safire you're currently jumping. Why not try the Sabre 2 150? You might be surprised at the results.For what it's worth, I currently jump a Safire 189. I put exactly one jump on a Sabre 2 190 when I decided it was too slow and sluggish for my liking. A few weeks later I decided to take the Sabre 2 170 for a few rides and I was impressed. The glide is superior to my Safire, responsiveness is superior, and flare - well, this is the easiest landing canopy I've ever jumped.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #34 May 2, 2002 That's on the list of things to discuss with PD when I send the demo 170 back, possibly trying out a 150. I also noticed that Big Air uses the same measurement scheme - they said 'PD measurement method' (or something like that) on thier website, but, like Lisa suggested, I will try thier 170's to see how they handle - then decide if a 150 is worth looking at as well. You know, you could probably go your entire first 6 months of jumping without ever buying a main, just keep demoing products - there are enough manufacturers with enough canopies out there, that you could be flying something new every two weeks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #35 May 3, 2002 QuoteYou know, you could probably go your entire first 6 months of jumping without ever buying a main, just keep demoing products - there are enough manufacturers with enough canopies out there, that you could be flying something new every two weeks. That's my plan. This is the Summer of the Demo for me. My plan is to jump a variety of canopies, both elliptical and semi-elliptical, in a variety of sizes. I foolishly bought my Safire after 1 jump on it with nothing else to compare it to. My Safire is a nice canopy, but I've become bored with it. This summer should be fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,129 #36 May 3, 2002 <<<>I agree; you should start small and then you don't need to downsize.I will never understand the basic premise that you should be flying the smallest canopy that won't kill you. Canopydesign is getting more and more sophisticated every day; as a whole, parachutes are getting safer. We should not be soeager to negate those safety gains by, essentially, choosing a parachute that requires everything to go just right in orderto land uninjured.>>>Ha - never thought I'd catch Bill with such an obvious one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #37 May 3, 2002 Well John.... we don't troll here unlike Rec.If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,092 #38 May 3, 2002 >Ha - never thought I'd catch Bill with such an obvious one.I was tempted to assume that it was sarcastic, but with Skydive Chicago doing exactly that I figured I'd answer seriously. To their credit they don't go as small as possible immediately.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,092 #39 May 3, 2002 >I could ask you the same questions Billvon?Fair enough:>start the flare, drag your toes, then turn 45 degrees in either direction?Had to do that in Eloy last week when I hit a thermal.>turn 90 degrees at 50-100 feet and still land safely?Had to do that to avoid a canopy at Perris six months ago.>land with rear risers only?Had to do that on my Sabre 150 when a toggle jammed.>land consistently on a 10 meter target?Did that on my 150 for my PRO rating (never sent in paperwork though.) Also did that two years ago on my 150 to land in a mcdonald's parking lot (bad spot.)>front riser, rear riser and toggle swoop?Yes (deliberate) yes (deliberate) yes (accidental.)>land uphill and downhill?Yeah - downhill is fun, uphill is scary. Since a bad spot near my DZ means mountains I've had to do both. Landing downhill, flying down a mountain path 2 feet above the ground is actually fun once you stop saying "oh shit"The thing one might note from the above is that I've _had_ to do most of that stuff - not for fun or for learning (although I've done that too) but to survive. Fortunately, I had enough experience doing that stuff that when the time came I could do it.-----------------Now to yours:>Question1, yes>Question2, I can flat turn 180 degrees>Question3, rear risers only? If I had to.Do it. Don't try it for the first time _after_ your toggle breaks.>Question4, I can hit my runway 10 out of 10 timesNot good enough - you can't always choose your runway - a mcdonalds parking lot doesn't have good runways. Put out orange traffic barrels in a 10 meter circle and try to land in them. If you can do that, you have pretty good accuracy skills.>Question5, Not sure what you meant by this?Can you initiate a high performance landing by using all three methods?>Question6, no problem doing either if I had to.Again, it's bad to practice this for the first time on the same jump you need it to save your life.These are not intended to prove that you can be a superstar. They are intended to demonstrate that you can control a canopy well, and more importantly, can use those skills to save your life if you need to. I can do all of the above on my Sabre; and can do most of them on my Saphire. I won't be downsizing until I can do them all, and probably not even then - I don't really need to go any faster, and I can get a lot of performance out of the 120.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #40 May 3, 2002 No I can't?? You know JACK SHIT about what I can or can't do under canopy. I didn't say I don't loose any altitude. From 100 feet I CAN to a 180 flat turn under the crossfire109. That is one of the first things I practice when I get a new canopy, low speed flight characteristics. First of all I don't make a habit of landing with rear risers. They make these really cool things called toggles or breaks. That is what I tend to use. We have had this discussion before in the forums. With rear risers come different risks like ABRUPTLY stalling your canopy. I don't know ANYONE that makes a practice of landing with rear risers. If you do you are either a swoop god or you need to pick up another sport. Can I hit a 10 meter target 10 times out of 10? I would bet that I can.The crossfire109 for example. Can I come in on a landing and fly it back up in the air. Yes I can. Again I know of no skydiver or decent canopy pilot that practices landing up or down hill regularly. Other than blade runners. Do I make it a practice, NO, could I do it? I am confident that faced with the situation I could do it.Who ever said anything about being overconfident? I know what I can and cannot do and I constantly strive for improvement as far as the flight envelope of my current canopy.Why don't you answer all of the same questions. Can you do all of the above?Rhino Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #41 May 3, 2002 I thought you asked these questions under your CURRENT canopy?I've landed in rear risers on my Diablo110 due to the same problem you encountered.Under my old Triathlon150 I could hit a 10 meter disk 10 out of 10 times all day. Under the Crossfire, or Diablo not so easy due to the forward speed but I'm learning.As far as landings I am normally front risers tapping the toggles to level out and innitiate the staged flair. Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cobaltdan 0 #42 May 3, 2002 hey rhino,i'm not trying to give you any sh^t....just point out that thinking you can do something under a small canopy if you had to, is a good way to get yourself into trouble when that time comes. thats what practice is for on a larger canopy. i.e. up hill & down hill landings are actually alot of fun to practice (carolina sky sports !!!). most people who haven't tried think an up hill landing would be more difficult than a down hill landing. on a swoop it is actually harder to go down hill. you wont know this till you try.i.e. hitting the peas 10 times out of 10. when is the last time you actually did this. alot of us would shrug the task off because we used to do this, but that was a while ago under a different canopy, etc... again i am not trying to give you any grief, just suggest that you actually go out and practice.when is the last time you took a 180' into a 15 mph down wind landing. if you cant do it given planed circumstance on your dz then doing it when you land off into a tight area is definately a problem.sincerely,danps i do not consider myself a swoop god, but i love to fly at high wing loads. imo the only way to remain safe is to keep your window of perception as wide as possible by continually practicing. you never want to simply fall into a narrow routine as many people invaribly do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,092 #43 May 3, 2002 >They make these really cool things called toggles or breaks. There's this really bad thing, though, called equiment failure. Do you plan to chop from a broken brake line? If not, will the very first time you practice be when you have no way to bail out? >With rear risers come different risks like ABRUPTLY stalling your canopy. I don't> know ANYONE that makes a practice of landing with rear risers.Adam lands his 2.5 to 1 velocity with rear risers quite often. I know of at least one guy who almost broke his leg trying it on a Sabre 150. This is a difference in skill - the second guy needs more practice.> . . .you need to pick up another sport.You need to pick up another sport if you can land in rear risers? Rhino, listen to yourself! Stop trying to prove you are so much better than everybody else who jumps high performance canopies! There are plenty of very, very good canopy pilots out there. Many are much better than you. Many of even these pilots have tried something and come up short on the skills they need to save their lives.If I had to land my saphire on a 20 degree rocky mountain path, could I do it? I don't know - it would depend on the terrain, winds etc. I'd have a shot at it because I've done it before. For you to say that you're confident you can is really worrisome. You're not that good.>(landing downhill) Do I make it a practice, NO, could I do it? I am confident >that faced with the situation I could do it.I wonder what you'd say to a recent grad who told you "I've never done anything bigger than a 4-way, but I am confident I can do a 40-way, since I pretend I'm on 40-ways a lot. And I'm excellent at RW."Practice it. If you _can_ do it, saying "I'm sure I can do it if I had to" is being a little less overconfident.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #44 May 3, 2002 I ALLWAYS practice. I am constantly practicing. And I practiced accuracy all the time under my Triathlon150. Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #45 May 3, 2002 Is a Crossfire2 97 at 1.7:1 a Tri 150? There is a slight difference there...If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #46 May 3, 2002 Yes there has also been a progression since then.. I didn't HOP on a crossfire97.. When did this become a discission about my canopy skills anyway? Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Engovatov 0 #47 May 3, 2002 >When did this become a discission about my canopy skills anyway?Do not know, but you definitly have a knack of making one.. ;-))Why do I have a strange feeling that you, Robert, is trying to prove something to yourself, having doubts, and friendly net folks just smell the possibility to nag you? And, or, yeah - my canopy is bigger then yours.. nyah, nyah, nyah.. ;-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #48 May 3, 2002 Hell yeah!Somebody hijacked my thread, dammit - and you know what that means...I'm squishing your heads....I'm squishing your heads...All y'all (diverdriver told me that that's the plural for y'all) consider yourselves headsquished (In otherwords, this has gotten WAY too serious for a Friday) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #49 May 3, 2002 Damnit!! I'm going skydiving!!! I am going to go practice accuracy, and landing uphill and downhill, and stuff Rhino Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cobaltdan 0 #50 May 3, 2002 "Damnit!! I'm going skydiving!!!"i wish....we have hurricane winds in ny !guess i will make some more patterns.....-dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Jimbo 0 #35 May 3, 2002 QuoteYou know, you could probably go your entire first 6 months of jumping without ever buying a main, just keep demoing products - there are enough manufacturers with enough canopies out there, that you could be flying something new every two weeks. That's my plan. This is the Summer of the Demo for me. My plan is to jump a variety of canopies, both elliptical and semi-elliptical, in a variety of sizes. I foolishly bought my Safire after 1 jump on it with nothing else to compare it to. My Safire is a nice canopy, but I've become bored with it. This summer should be fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,129 #36 May 3, 2002 <<<>I agree; you should start small and then you don't need to downsize.I will never understand the basic premise that you should be flying the smallest canopy that won't kill you. Canopydesign is getting more and more sophisticated every day; as a whole, parachutes are getting safer. We should not be soeager to negate those safety gains by, essentially, choosing a parachute that requires everything to go just right in orderto land uninjured.>>>Ha - never thought I'd catch Bill with such an obvious one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #37 May 3, 2002 Well John.... we don't troll here unlike Rec.If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,092 #38 May 3, 2002 >Ha - never thought I'd catch Bill with such an obvious one.I was tempted to assume that it was sarcastic, but with Skydive Chicago doing exactly that I figured I'd answer seriously. To their credit they don't go as small as possible immediately.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,092 #39 May 3, 2002 >I could ask you the same questions Billvon?Fair enough:>start the flare, drag your toes, then turn 45 degrees in either direction?Had to do that in Eloy last week when I hit a thermal.>turn 90 degrees at 50-100 feet and still land safely?Had to do that to avoid a canopy at Perris six months ago.>land with rear risers only?Had to do that on my Sabre 150 when a toggle jammed.>land consistently on a 10 meter target?Did that on my 150 for my PRO rating (never sent in paperwork though.) Also did that two years ago on my 150 to land in a mcdonald's parking lot (bad spot.)>front riser, rear riser and toggle swoop?Yes (deliberate) yes (deliberate) yes (accidental.)>land uphill and downhill?Yeah - downhill is fun, uphill is scary. Since a bad spot near my DZ means mountains I've had to do both. Landing downhill, flying down a mountain path 2 feet above the ground is actually fun once you stop saying "oh shit"The thing one might note from the above is that I've _had_ to do most of that stuff - not for fun or for learning (although I've done that too) but to survive. Fortunately, I had enough experience doing that stuff that when the time came I could do it.-----------------Now to yours:>Question1, yes>Question2, I can flat turn 180 degrees>Question3, rear risers only? If I had to.Do it. Don't try it for the first time _after_ your toggle breaks.>Question4, I can hit my runway 10 out of 10 timesNot good enough - you can't always choose your runway - a mcdonalds parking lot doesn't have good runways. Put out orange traffic barrels in a 10 meter circle and try to land in them. If you can do that, you have pretty good accuracy skills.>Question5, Not sure what you meant by this?Can you initiate a high performance landing by using all three methods?>Question6, no problem doing either if I had to.Again, it's bad to practice this for the first time on the same jump you need it to save your life.These are not intended to prove that you can be a superstar. They are intended to demonstrate that you can control a canopy well, and more importantly, can use those skills to save your life if you need to. I can do all of the above on my Sabre; and can do most of them on my Saphire. I won't be downsizing until I can do them all, and probably not even then - I don't really need to go any faster, and I can get a lot of performance out of the 120.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #40 May 3, 2002 No I can't?? You know JACK SHIT about what I can or can't do under canopy. I didn't say I don't loose any altitude. From 100 feet I CAN to a 180 flat turn under the crossfire109. That is one of the first things I practice when I get a new canopy, low speed flight characteristics. First of all I don't make a habit of landing with rear risers. They make these really cool things called toggles or breaks. That is what I tend to use. We have had this discussion before in the forums. With rear risers come different risks like ABRUPTLY stalling your canopy. I don't know ANYONE that makes a practice of landing with rear risers. If you do you are either a swoop god or you need to pick up another sport. Can I hit a 10 meter target 10 times out of 10? I would bet that I can.The crossfire109 for example. Can I come in on a landing and fly it back up in the air. Yes I can. Again I know of no skydiver or decent canopy pilot that practices landing up or down hill regularly. Other than blade runners. Do I make it a practice, NO, could I do it? I am confident that faced with the situation I could do it.Who ever said anything about being overconfident? I know what I can and cannot do and I constantly strive for improvement as far as the flight envelope of my current canopy.Why don't you answer all of the same questions. Can you do all of the above?Rhino Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #41 May 3, 2002 I thought you asked these questions under your CURRENT canopy?I've landed in rear risers on my Diablo110 due to the same problem you encountered.Under my old Triathlon150 I could hit a 10 meter disk 10 out of 10 times all day. Under the Crossfire, or Diablo not so easy due to the forward speed but I'm learning.As far as landings I am normally front risers tapping the toggles to level out and innitiate the staged flair. Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cobaltdan 0 #42 May 3, 2002 hey rhino,i'm not trying to give you any sh^t....just point out that thinking you can do something under a small canopy if you had to, is a good way to get yourself into trouble when that time comes. thats what practice is for on a larger canopy. i.e. up hill & down hill landings are actually alot of fun to practice (carolina sky sports !!!). most people who haven't tried think an up hill landing would be more difficult than a down hill landing. on a swoop it is actually harder to go down hill. you wont know this till you try.i.e. hitting the peas 10 times out of 10. when is the last time you actually did this. alot of us would shrug the task off because we used to do this, but that was a while ago under a different canopy, etc... again i am not trying to give you any grief, just suggest that you actually go out and practice.when is the last time you took a 180' into a 15 mph down wind landing. if you cant do it given planed circumstance on your dz then doing it when you land off into a tight area is definately a problem.sincerely,danps i do not consider myself a swoop god, but i love to fly at high wing loads. imo the only way to remain safe is to keep your window of perception as wide as possible by continually practicing. you never want to simply fall into a narrow routine as many people invaribly do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,092 #43 May 3, 2002 >They make these really cool things called toggles or breaks. There's this really bad thing, though, called equiment failure. Do you plan to chop from a broken brake line? If not, will the very first time you practice be when you have no way to bail out? >With rear risers come different risks like ABRUPTLY stalling your canopy. I don't> know ANYONE that makes a practice of landing with rear risers.Adam lands his 2.5 to 1 velocity with rear risers quite often. I know of at least one guy who almost broke his leg trying it on a Sabre 150. This is a difference in skill - the second guy needs more practice.> . . .you need to pick up another sport.You need to pick up another sport if you can land in rear risers? Rhino, listen to yourself! Stop trying to prove you are so much better than everybody else who jumps high performance canopies! There are plenty of very, very good canopy pilots out there. Many are much better than you. Many of even these pilots have tried something and come up short on the skills they need to save their lives.If I had to land my saphire on a 20 degree rocky mountain path, could I do it? I don't know - it would depend on the terrain, winds etc. I'd have a shot at it because I've done it before. For you to say that you're confident you can is really worrisome. You're not that good.>(landing downhill) Do I make it a practice, NO, could I do it? I am confident >that faced with the situation I could do it.I wonder what you'd say to a recent grad who told you "I've never done anything bigger than a 4-way, but I am confident I can do a 40-way, since I pretend I'm on 40-ways a lot. And I'm excellent at RW."Practice it. If you _can_ do it, saying "I'm sure I can do it if I had to" is being a little less overconfident.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #44 May 3, 2002 I ALLWAYS practice. I am constantly practicing. And I practiced accuracy all the time under my Triathlon150. Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #45 May 3, 2002 Is a Crossfire2 97 at 1.7:1 a Tri 150? There is a slight difference there...If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #46 May 3, 2002 Yes there has also been a progression since then.. I didn't HOP on a crossfire97.. When did this become a discission about my canopy skills anyway? Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Engovatov 0 #47 May 3, 2002 >When did this become a discission about my canopy skills anyway?Do not know, but you definitly have a knack of making one.. ;-))Why do I have a strange feeling that you, Robert, is trying to prove something to yourself, having doubts, and friendly net folks just smell the possibility to nag you? And, or, yeah - my canopy is bigger then yours.. nyah, nyah, nyah.. ;-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #48 May 3, 2002 Hell yeah!Somebody hijacked my thread, dammit - and you know what that means...I'm squishing your heads....I'm squishing your heads...All y'all (diverdriver told me that that's the plural for y'all) consider yourselves headsquished (In otherwords, this has gotten WAY too serious for a Friday) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #49 May 3, 2002 Damnit!! I'm going skydiving!!! I am going to go practice accuracy, and landing uphill and downhill, and stuff Rhino Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cobaltdan 0 #50 May 3, 2002 "Damnit!! I'm going skydiving!!!"i wish....we have hurricane winds in ny !guess i will make some more patterns.....-dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
kallend 2,129 #36 May 3, 2002 <<<>I agree; you should start small and then you don't need to downsize.I will never understand the basic premise that you should be flying the smallest canopy that won't kill you. Canopydesign is getting more and more sophisticated every day; as a whole, parachutes are getting safer. We should not be soeager to negate those safety gains by, essentially, choosing a parachute that requires everything to go just right in orderto land uninjured.>>>Ha - never thought I'd catch Bill with such an obvious one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #37 May 3, 2002 Well John.... we don't troll here unlike Rec.If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,092 #38 May 3, 2002 >Ha - never thought I'd catch Bill with such an obvious one.I was tempted to assume that it was sarcastic, but with Skydive Chicago doing exactly that I figured I'd answer seriously. To their credit they don't go as small as possible immediately.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,092 #39 May 3, 2002 >I could ask you the same questions Billvon?Fair enough:>start the flare, drag your toes, then turn 45 degrees in either direction?Had to do that in Eloy last week when I hit a thermal.>turn 90 degrees at 50-100 feet and still land safely?Had to do that to avoid a canopy at Perris six months ago.>land with rear risers only?Had to do that on my Sabre 150 when a toggle jammed.>land consistently on a 10 meter target?Did that on my 150 for my PRO rating (never sent in paperwork though.) Also did that two years ago on my 150 to land in a mcdonald's parking lot (bad spot.)>front riser, rear riser and toggle swoop?Yes (deliberate) yes (deliberate) yes (accidental.)>land uphill and downhill?Yeah - downhill is fun, uphill is scary. Since a bad spot near my DZ means mountains I've had to do both. Landing downhill, flying down a mountain path 2 feet above the ground is actually fun once you stop saying "oh shit"The thing one might note from the above is that I've _had_ to do most of that stuff - not for fun or for learning (although I've done that too) but to survive. Fortunately, I had enough experience doing that stuff that when the time came I could do it.-----------------Now to yours:>Question1, yes>Question2, I can flat turn 180 degrees>Question3, rear risers only? If I had to.Do it. Don't try it for the first time _after_ your toggle breaks.>Question4, I can hit my runway 10 out of 10 timesNot good enough - you can't always choose your runway - a mcdonalds parking lot doesn't have good runways. Put out orange traffic barrels in a 10 meter circle and try to land in them. If you can do that, you have pretty good accuracy skills.>Question5, Not sure what you meant by this?Can you initiate a high performance landing by using all three methods?>Question6, no problem doing either if I had to.Again, it's bad to practice this for the first time on the same jump you need it to save your life.These are not intended to prove that you can be a superstar. They are intended to demonstrate that you can control a canopy well, and more importantly, can use those skills to save your life if you need to. I can do all of the above on my Sabre; and can do most of them on my Saphire. I won't be downsizing until I can do them all, and probably not even then - I don't really need to go any faster, and I can get a lot of performance out of the 120.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #40 May 3, 2002 No I can't?? You know JACK SHIT about what I can or can't do under canopy. I didn't say I don't loose any altitude. From 100 feet I CAN to a 180 flat turn under the crossfire109. That is one of the first things I practice when I get a new canopy, low speed flight characteristics. First of all I don't make a habit of landing with rear risers. They make these really cool things called toggles or breaks. That is what I tend to use. We have had this discussion before in the forums. With rear risers come different risks like ABRUPTLY stalling your canopy. I don't know ANYONE that makes a practice of landing with rear risers. If you do you are either a swoop god or you need to pick up another sport. Can I hit a 10 meter target 10 times out of 10? I would bet that I can.The crossfire109 for example. Can I come in on a landing and fly it back up in the air. Yes I can. Again I know of no skydiver or decent canopy pilot that practices landing up or down hill regularly. Other than blade runners. Do I make it a practice, NO, could I do it? I am confident that faced with the situation I could do it.Who ever said anything about being overconfident? I know what I can and cannot do and I constantly strive for improvement as far as the flight envelope of my current canopy.Why don't you answer all of the same questions. Can you do all of the above?Rhino Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #41 May 3, 2002 I thought you asked these questions under your CURRENT canopy?I've landed in rear risers on my Diablo110 due to the same problem you encountered.Under my old Triathlon150 I could hit a 10 meter disk 10 out of 10 times all day. Under the Crossfire, or Diablo not so easy due to the forward speed but I'm learning.As far as landings I am normally front risers tapping the toggles to level out and innitiate the staged flair. Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #42 May 3, 2002 hey rhino,i'm not trying to give you any sh^t....just point out that thinking you can do something under a small canopy if you had to, is a good way to get yourself into trouble when that time comes. thats what practice is for on a larger canopy. i.e. up hill & down hill landings are actually alot of fun to practice (carolina sky sports !!!). most people who haven't tried think an up hill landing would be more difficult than a down hill landing. on a swoop it is actually harder to go down hill. you wont know this till you try.i.e. hitting the peas 10 times out of 10. when is the last time you actually did this. alot of us would shrug the task off because we used to do this, but that was a while ago under a different canopy, etc... again i am not trying to give you any grief, just suggest that you actually go out and practice.when is the last time you took a 180' into a 15 mph down wind landing. if you cant do it given planed circumstance on your dz then doing it when you land off into a tight area is definately a problem.sincerely,danps i do not consider myself a swoop god, but i love to fly at high wing loads. imo the only way to remain safe is to keep your window of perception as wide as possible by continually practicing. you never want to simply fall into a narrow routine as many people invaribly do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,092 #43 May 3, 2002 >They make these really cool things called toggles or breaks. There's this really bad thing, though, called equiment failure. Do you plan to chop from a broken brake line? If not, will the very first time you practice be when you have no way to bail out? >With rear risers come different risks like ABRUPTLY stalling your canopy. I don't> know ANYONE that makes a practice of landing with rear risers.Adam lands his 2.5 to 1 velocity with rear risers quite often. I know of at least one guy who almost broke his leg trying it on a Sabre 150. This is a difference in skill - the second guy needs more practice.> . . .you need to pick up another sport.You need to pick up another sport if you can land in rear risers? Rhino, listen to yourself! Stop trying to prove you are so much better than everybody else who jumps high performance canopies! There are plenty of very, very good canopy pilots out there. Many are much better than you. Many of even these pilots have tried something and come up short on the skills they need to save their lives.If I had to land my saphire on a 20 degree rocky mountain path, could I do it? I don't know - it would depend on the terrain, winds etc. I'd have a shot at it because I've done it before. For you to say that you're confident you can is really worrisome. You're not that good.>(landing downhill) Do I make it a practice, NO, could I do it? I am confident >that faced with the situation I could do it.I wonder what you'd say to a recent grad who told you "I've never done anything bigger than a 4-way, but I am confident I can do a 40-way, since I pretend I'm on 40-ways a lot. And I'm excellent at RW."Practice it. If you _can_ do it, saying "I'm sure I can do it if I had to" is being a little less overconfident.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #44 May 3, 2002 I ALLWAYS practice. I am constantly practicing. And I practiced accuracy all the time under my Triathlon150. Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #45 May 3, 2002 Is a Crossfire2 97 at 1.7:1 a Tri 150? There is a slight difference there...If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #46 May 3, 2002 Yes there has also been a progression since then.. I didn't HOP on a crossfire97.. When did this become a discission about my canopy skills anyway? Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Engovatov 0 #47 May 3, 2002 >When did this become a discission about my canopy skills anyway?Do not know, but you definitly have a knack of making one.. ;-))Why do I have a strange feeling that you, Robert, is trying to prove something to yourself, having doubts, and friendly net folks just smell the possibility to nag you? And, or, yeah - my canopy is bigger then yours.. nyah, nyah, nyah.. ;-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #48 May 3, 2002 Hell yeah!Somebody hijacked my thread, dammit - and you know what that means...I'm squishing your heads....I'm squishing your heads...All y'all (diverdriver told me that that's the plural for y'all) consider yourselves headsquished (In otherwords, this has gotten WAY too serious for a Friday) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #49 May 3, 2002 Damnit!! I'm going skydiving!!! I am going to go practice accuracy, and landing uphill and downhill, and stuff Rhino Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #50 May 3, 2002 "Damnit!! I'm going skydiving!!!"i wish....we have hurricane winds in ny !guess i will make some more patterns.....-dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
