Bad Icarus...Bad.

[mountainman 0]

Last year, before Laura and I ordered our new canopies, I called Icarus and talked to them. They said that they did not have plans on replacing the Icarus Safire canopy anytime in the near future.
Also, I talked to the guy I bought my gear from, Steve Alexander from ParaQuip and he told me the exact same thing.
After that, I thought "ok, I guess we should get some of these then".
Well, as you may have seen from the main page.....HERE
4 years ago we released the Icarus Safire. A revolutionary canopy, being the first all purpose 9 cell canopy to include a lightly & truly elliptical planform shape offering superior openings and flight characteristics compared to competing mid-performance range 9 cell designs at the time.
We new that the superior characteristics of this design, such as a lightly & truly elliptical planform shape combined with constant cell proportioning would not be ignored by other canopy manufacturers. This style of design would become the benchmark for mid-range performance canopies and other manufacturers would build similar designs as we have recently seen.
The Safire 2, like the original Safire is a truly elliptical canopy with a light shaping incorporating a constant cell aspect ratio which consistently controls the airfoil shape across the canopy, maintaining increased rigidity and reducing drag.
The Safire 2 is an enhanced version of the original Safire incorporating new trim and plan form shaping techniques. Its openings are arguably the sweetest of any canopy in its class. So much so that you'd swear it was a 7 cell opening above your head. We have also integrated an even greater glide ratio, more nimble and very predicable flight characteristics, responsive flight controls both on toggles and risers, a shorter recovery arc to maintain a higher level of safety for mid-range jumpers and a powerful flare.
The Safire 2 is designed to fly best at wing loadings of .75 to 1.6. At the lower end, the Safire flies forgivingly and is an ideal transitional canopy. At the higher loadings, it is a fast-moving smooth-handling ride that outperforms other canopies in its class.
That is some fucked up bullshit if I have ever seen any! I can guarentee that I'll never say ANYTHING good about my canopy or recommend them to ANYONE.
Anyone else have this problem with Icarus?
JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook.

[rhino 0]

Companies choose to keep release dates to themselves for a reason. They may have been working on new plane form wing shapes not knowing that they were going to be called what you have just seen.
I personally don't think Icarus diserves the flaming that you are giving them right now. Business decisions are made for a reason. I know that not until VERY RECENTLY was the Crossfire2 even named. I am sure that is the case for the others as well..
I to date have nothing but good to say about Icarus and their canopies.
Rhino
Blue Skies .....

[PhreeZone 20]

Brandon... you are also looking at over 6 months since you ordered your gear. If you call PD up and ask when is the release date of their next canopy I'll bet you they won't tell you the exact date that it is. I mean 6 months is a long time off in any companies eyes......
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[skybytch 273]

Since you chose to flame Icarus in both Talkback and this forum, I'm posting my response in both forums too.

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That is some fucked up bullshit if I have ever seen any! I can guarentee that I'll never say ANYTHING good about my canopy or recommend them to ANYONE.

So... no manufacturer should ever change or improve a product? Didja think maybe they made the decision _after_ you bought yours? Would you have waited a year to buy if you'd known? Is it a possibility that neither Icarus nor your dealer own a crystal ball and couldn't predict the future when you talked to them?
Welcome to the wonderful world of skydiving equipment. Things constantly change - the Bonehead Mindwarp of today is a totally different helmet than the one they originally produced, the Triathlon has been through several "versions", a Voodoo container purchased today will be different than one purchased only a year ago, the standard Javelin container of today is very different than the one they produced only three years ago...
Get over it. If you like the way your canopy opens, flies and lands then it shouldn't be a problem. If you don't like your canopy, then you should have done more demoing and research before you bought it.
pull & flare,
lisa
[subliminal msg]My website Go Now[/subliminal msg]

[Jimbo 0]

What Lisa said. Me too.
What exactly did you mean when you said 'anytime soon'? Did you ask him what he meant when he said 'anytime soon'? Skydivers, it seems to me, are an impatient bunch, when we want something 'soon' we want it next week, not next year.
I'm guessing you didn't ask the right questions. I've been in contact, on and off, with Icarus and they've never denied the rework of the Safire. They've never promised a date on it either. If you talk to them nicely they might even give you reasonable trade on the canopies you have provided you buy the new Safire. Then again, maybe they won't.
By the way, just by jumping the canopy you're saying something good about it. You're saying that you trust it to save your life, you're saying that it's good enough to put you and your wife gently back on this fine planet of ours. If you really feel that way you should sell yours, both of them.
-
Jim
Edited by Jimbo on 05/01/02 02:06 AM (server time).

[JJohnson 0]

I kinda agree with you. I sold my Safire and now have my order in for a Cobalt. Icarus did not live up to half of what they promised, took a long time to not solve an issue. They tried damn hard, I'll give them credit where it was due. But they did lose my business.
JJ

[PhreeZone 20]

Cross posted since you did too...
Look here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forums/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=forumgear&Number=39069&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1#Post39069 and it seems like you knew they had the canopy in the works....
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[skymedic 0]

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forums/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=forumgear&Number=40792&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1#Post40792

Cheers....vasbyt
marc
"it's hard to be anal with no anus!!!"-Dogma

[mountainman 0]

I'll put the same here as well:
The part that really makes me mad is that I spoke to them over the phone and asked if it was to come out this year because I heard from people that it was.
They told me right out that there wasn't one in the works and that I should just go with the current model.
JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook.

[rhino 0]

They aren't going to say that "the" canopy is coming out until they have sufficiently field tested the wing and they know it's safe. Simply put when you called they had not yet reached that point.
The difference between the crossfire and crossfire2 probably isn't big enough to get your balls on fire. The original crossfire is a GREAT canopy. I am jumping one that has had the mod and it is a great canopy.
Rhino
Blue Skies .....

[skreamer 1]

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They aren't going to say that "the" canopy is coming out until they have sufficiently field tested the wing and they know it's safe. Simply put when you called they had not yet reached that point.

Exactly! And if they did tell people that they had the new model coming out, but production was then delayed for whatever reason, those same people would be mad at them for the wait.
Seems like a no-win situation for the manufacturers. I don't own an Icarus canopy, but nothing I've read here would put me off dealing with them.
Will
"Look before you jump, don't die until you're dead"

[rhino 0]

I have dealt with Simon and Rob at Icarus on a few occasions. I am TOTALLY impressed with the customer service and the time they will spend on the phone answering ALL of your questions.
I know Simon quiet well now after a few hour long conversations about the old crossfire, the new crossfire, the fx, the vx. When they do actually talk to you about possible release dates of these new canopies they still try to keep it quiet just in case release is delayed. I knew about the crossfire2 about 2 months ago.. Only then it wasn't the crossfire2, it was possible going to be the ExtremeWx or something? Either way I trust Simon and I appreciate the time he has taken to educate me on the wings that they use, manufacturing, quality control..
So far I have owned 3 new mains..
Triathlon150 "Aerodyne Research"
Diablo110 "Aerodyne Research"
Xaos98 "Precision Aerodynamics"
And I have a Crossfire2 97 on the way., "Icarus"
Of these manufacturers I have yet to be treated in a wrong way. They were all professional and very thorough..
Rhino
Blue Skies .....

[mountainman 0]

I have some some bad experiences with Icarus and then one great one.
From what I've been told, you have to get ahold of a certain woman (I forgot her name) to get stuff done. Like I said, that is what I've heard, but that is what happened with me.
Dunno.
JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook.

[rhino 0]

Good thing to do is never listen to what you HEARD and listen to what YOU have seen yourself..
Just put what you have HEARD in the database for later reference if necessary.
Get your own scoop on the matter. You will find that the people you get the "heard" from are normally blowing things out of scope for personal reasons.
Rhino
Blue Skies .....

[riggerrob 643]

Chill out dude,
Bad-mouthing Icarus is like shooting yourself in the foot. If they are as bad as you say, you just ruined the re-sale value of your Safire. Dooooh!
Secondly, it is bad business to announce new models too far in advance. It always takes longer than planned to perfect a new design. Trust me, I have been working on the next generation of containers and some of my sketches are 20 years old.
If a company is foolish enough to announce a new model too far in advance, then sales dry up while they are struggling to amass the capital needed to perfect the new model. That forces the factory into a double bind: release too late and they go bankrupt, or release an imperfect product too early.
Which scenario would you prefer?

[freeflycracker 0]

Agreed. I emailed Simon after the mod was performed on my Crossfire. He called me, on his dime, and spent about an hour discussing the future plans with Icarus. After all was said and done I couldnt have been happier with their customer service. My next canopy will be an Icarus. Hell, I hope to run into Simon over the summer and buy him around or three!

[mountainman 0]

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If a company is foolish enough to announce a new model too far in advance, then sales dry up while they are struggling to amass the capital needed to perfect the new model. That forces the factory into a double bind: release too late and they go bankrupt, or release an imperfect product too early.
Which scenario would you prefer?

I know, Rob.
It was just kinda the "Grrrrr!" factor. JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook.

[Jimbo 0]

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I have some some bad experiences with Icarus and then one great one.

Would any one of those experiences be the one where they told you, flat out, that they indeed were going to release a Safire2? You've made the posts to prove you knew about it, don't try to deny it now. Just be a good adult and apologise.
-
Jim

[rhino 0]

Ouch... The truth will set you free.. lol
Blue Skies .....

[mountainman 0]

You're right Jimbo. I talked to so many people during that time that I indeed made a mistake about it.
I am sorry to all of you and am sorry to Icarus.
Blues.
JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook.

[hobbes4star 0]

call chevy or ford and see if they will tell you when a new model is coming out. i bet they will just tell you what is on their drawing board. their is a reason companies keep these kinds of things secret.
why jump when you can fly

[mountainman 0]

Well, for the past 100 years or so, they've come out with a new one every year.
Not much of a question there, Ace.
JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook.

[skycat 0]

Yeah but trust me they aren't going to tell you when they are going to totally change the body style, I bought a Ford Mustang in the curvy muscle body style in late 97, well just a year later they totally changed the style to the boxy one of today. Yes they do come out with a new "model" every year, but only every few years do they totally redesign the model. Did they tell me they were going to change it no, but on the other hand I think the new body style is ugly and am very glad that I have the curvy one. Only thing that sucks is I'm going to be in the market for a new car in a year or so and unless they change the mustang again it is not going to be on the list.

[cloud9 0]

There is no reason on God's green earth for a manufacturer, company or business to lie to you. It would not have taken much for Icarus to say we have been developing some new canopies for quite some time, they are still in the testing stages and I don't see any being released with in the next few months. Only a fool would not buy a canopy with that type of information, and it would be an honest ethical answer. If they'll lie about one thing for business reasons then they'll lie about anything for business reasons.
A company, a business, manufacturer, or person is only as good as their word. If their word is no good then neither is the person!

[mountainman 0]

Hey SkyKat...I definetely like the body style that you have. The newer Mustangs look like they took a step backward. They just seem too boxy looking. However, I'd rather have a 67 or so. As far as Cloud...I already said that I was mistaken and they DID tell me the truth. I know who those are that told me that it was not going to happen, but I'm not mad about it now. I know why I was: I hadn't jumped in 2.5 months. I was cranky. I got 5 jumps in this past weekend and my canopy is great. I think that Laura and I are going to try and get the HookNSwoop mods done to them.
Anyway, I apologize again to Icarus. I'm retarded. JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook.