kevin922 0 #1 April 5, 2002 I noticed while looking over the new design for the bonehead site, that they are coming out (or have come out) with a helmet called "rider's rage" found here which looks a lot like one of those brain buckets that the HOG riders use. However, for some (in my mind) idiotic reason they've decided to integrate SPIKES on the helmet. Does this not seem stupid? Think of :'A) Mid air collision with someone that is wearing a helmet with spikesB) Some part of a parachute deployment hitting a spike doing damage to lines What do you guys think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #2 April 5, 2002 Umm... I don't think the helmet is intended for skydiving use...And I'm sure that the spikes aren't intended for skydiving use.Note the name of the helmet - Rider's Rage - think motorcycles...pull & flare,lisa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #3 April 5, 2002 QuoteUmm... I don't think the helmet is intended for skydiving use...And I'm sure that the spikes aren't intended for skydiving use.Note the name of the helmet - Rider's Rage - think motorcycles...Well that surprises me..A) bonehead composites logo is:"Bonehead Composites is the Leader in Carbon Fiber / Composite Products for Extreme Sports."B) All of bonehead's products are skydiving relatedC) Rider's rage falls under the "standard helmets" category - with all skydiving helmetsD) Motorcycle helmets have to be DOT certified - they make no mention of any DOT certification. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #4 April 5, 2002 So they aren't allowed to go after any market other than skydiving because that's what they've always done? pull & flare,lisa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #5 April 5, 2002 Also think of riding a bicycle and horseback riding. None of those helmets fit anything except the general deffiniation of a good helmet except those required by swoop meet rules...I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #6 April 5, 2002 I would have agreed with Lisa that it is for motorcycles but bone heads ad sounds more for a skydiver.Open Ears to feel and hear your airspeedHeavy–duty, Cast, Stainless-Steel Retention buckle. Custom Fit, Thermo-formable LinerAvailable in Carbon Fiber Finish or Black GlossI would not think a motocyclist would need to hear their airspeed. Plus there is no Shnell(or how ever it is spelled) rating on it , which motorcycle helmets need.Just a few thoughts on this.Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #7 April 5, 2002 QuoteSo they aren't allowed to go after any market other than skydiving because that's what they've always done? Sure they are, but it is very poor marketing to not make a distinction between what sport they are supposed to be used for. If you are going to tap other markets and your products are made for a certain market - then organize it. Would you go to a motorcycle shop looking for a skydiving helmet? Or even a better analogy would you use a motorcycle helmet for skydiving? No. So why would you group a motorcycle (horse or bike) helmet with skydiving equipment?Just my opinion *shrug* but what does that count for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JDBoston 0 #8 April 5, 2002 I may be over-analyzing it, but "for the biker in all of us," IMHO, means that it's not really for bikers. Think of the other places you hear that expression ("for the [x] in all of us") used. I agree that it's pretty odd marketing.Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,096 #9 April 5, 2002 >Note the name of the helmet - Rider's Rage - think motorcycles...Motorcycle helmets must go through crash testing and be approved by the DOT before they can legally be used on roads. It is not listed in the DOT's list of approved motorcycle helmets, so I'd think it unlikely that they intend to sell them to motorcycle riders.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,096 #10 April 5, 2002 >Plus there is no Shnell(or how ever it is spelled) rating on it , which motorcycle> helmets need.DOT rating is mandatory; Snell rating is optional but a very good idea, since they do a much more comprehensive test than the DOT.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #11 April 5, 2002 The new Bonehead helmets have been made basically directly for swoopers. That is it. They are not road legal and would be just about worthless for anything else besides skydiving, since the other markets have very well made helmets marketed directly for those markets. They were made to sastify swoopers, plain and simple.Oh, they're great for the professional powerdockers too..."Homer Simpson, smiling politely." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #12 April 5, 2002 I've emailed Jeanie and asked her to join in here... they're closed today, but I'd expect her to be chiming in on Monday.When that helmet was first introduced last year it was called the Swoop. The order form I have specifies in two different places that it is a "novelty" helmet. Might be a good idea for them to add that to the website.They are selling them to motorcycle riders - probably those who don't worry about things like DOT ratings...pull & flare,lisa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,096 #13 April 5, 2002 >They are selling them to motorcycle riders - probably those who don't worry>about things like DOT ratings...Interesting - I wonder what the market's like for "fake" helmets?Perhaps more importantly, I wonder if the rider's family will come after Bonehead after the first motorcycle fatality with one of their helmets? If they're like most skydiving helmets they probably say something like "Not intended for any use at all" - but given that they are sold explicitly "for the rider in all of us" it might make things sticky.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rapper4mpi 0 #14 April 5, 2002 Aw, but what about states that do not require helmets? These would be legal to use....-Rap Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites alan 1 #15 April 5, 2002 I wonder just how much we really know about the helmets we use for the various disciplines in skydiving. They are apparently manufactured and sold w/o much in the line of testing or meeting any specifications. Do they really do what we assume or think they do? Is it possible that they do more harm than good and it goes unnoticed because they do not have to meet any safety criteria?alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Geoff 0 #16 April 5, 2002 QuoteIs it possible that they do more harm than good and it goes unnoticed because they do not have to meet any safety criteria?Yes I believe it's more than possible. I especially worry about designs that have a metal bolt (to pivot the visor) right against the jumper's temple. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,096 #17 April 6, 2002 >Do they really do what we assume or think they do? Depends on what you think they will do. At one end of the spectrum, you have Pro-Tecs, and after seeing how much punishment they've absorbed from students, they give you very good protection from impact. At the other extreme you have Gath helmets, which are often worse than useless - a hard shell with little to no lining can actually increase deceleration trauma if you hit a hard surface.I think most helmets are in between. They offer some protection, but nothing like what a motorcycle helmet offers you. Personally, I use a FP-1 to protect my face from feet and my head from the door, and a Protec when I need real protection (BASE jumps, students etc.)>Is it possible that they do more harm than good and it goes unnoticed because> they do not have to meet any safety criteria?Not only possible, I suspect that is likely.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dayle 0 #18 April 6, 2002 I don't think that's what this is at all, this is just a company trying to make more money by expanding their market. I don't think ANY skydiver in their right mind would jump a helmet with spikes, never mind any DZ that would let him get on the plane. (nor anyone that would actually get in the airplance with him.)You never know what it could be used for, could be mountain bikingor maybe just cycling, I've seen bike couriers with spikes on their helmets racing around the city. Who's to say that a whitewater kayaker might want that as a "cool" helmet to wear.Or, how about fishing?? I have a friend that takes part in bass fishing tournaments. Some of those boats to 85 mph across the water. Some of them have taken to wear helmets. My friend has also bought two pair of high speed goggles off of me. This can only be a good thing. We have a sport that is limited in our overall "population" in sheer terms of numbers. If the manufacturers can churn out "our" equipment to other markets, hopefully some of the prices will come down.What does piss me off however is what I heard from another skydiver at the DZ. He saw an add under a different makers lable, of practically an exact duplicate of a full face skydiving helmet from a certain manufacturer (cant remember which one) that was being sold as a bass fishing helmet. FOR HALF THE F@#*ING PRICE!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,096 #19 April 6, 2002 >He saw an add under a different makers lable, of practically an exact duplicate >of a full face skydiving helmet from a certain manufacturer (cant remember which> one) that was being sold as a bass fishing helmet.People use full face helmets for bass fishing? I had no idea it was such a full-contact sport . . . do the fish fight back?-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #20 April 6, 2002 QuotePeople use full face helmets for bass fishing? I had no idea it was such a full-contact sport . . . do the fish fight back?It's the rediculous nature of the "sport" - people tear up perfectly good lakes with 15 foot fibreglass flat-hull boats with three hundred horsepower engines. They wear helmets for when they get ejected from the boat at 85MPH._Am (prefers to tear up the St. Lawrence River in dads 25foot v-hull, but only at 60mph)ICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dayle 0 #21 April 7, 2002 The next post got it right Bill, It's for if they get ejected from the boats. And they call me insane for jumping out of planes!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dayle 0 #22 April 7, 2002 I hear you andy, I prefer a cigarette boat myself for the high speed, not the puny bass boats. But there is a rush about going across the water at Very high rates of speed!!!Dayle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JeanJeanie 0 #23 April 8, 2002 Bill, go to a search engine and type in "novelty Motorcycle Helmets"Hog Riders like rules and regulations less than we do. in reality very few states require helmets, let alone, DOT for folks over 17 years of age. The Novelty Motorcycle Helmet Market is HUGE.Actually Snell is much tougher that DOT. But basically it is all about impact attenuation, shock dispersion and penetration.... (he he , I said "Penetration"...........). DOT does not test, they set criteria and standards for independent testing. Then randomly test companies claiming to meet ratings."If you are going make a novelty helmet, make it novel."Jeanjeanie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildblue 7 #24 April 8, 2002 Actually, there's 20 states that require helmets for all riders. And most of the time the law reads ".... state approved helmet..." is required - which typically means it has to have a DOT or Snell sticker.3 or 4 states have no helmet laws at all, and the rest have laws for 'novice' riders or those under a certain age (usually 17 or 20)DOT and Snell do work differently - I could make a helmet and put a DOT sticker on it and sell it to you. Maybe at some point down the road my helmet might actually get tested and shown not to meet their standards, and I'd not be allowed to put the sticker on there anymore. I'd have to apply for and earn the right to say my helmet meets the Snell standards. The standards are different, and most people agree Snell's are a better set.Got a $10 head? Buy a $10 helmet. "Wait! You didn't get that on tape did you!?" Goat #1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JFCHRISTOPHER 0 #25 April 8, 2002 How about I shed a little light on this topic. Chris frisella here, owner of Bonehead composites to express a few thoughts and hopefully clear up the Rider's Rage controversy so we can all go on to more creative tangents.I can understand how the purpose of this helmet may be confusing since it is advertised with our other helmets primarly used for skydiving, but the clue is in the name. Rider's Rage- points go out to Lisa for picking up on that. You go girl. This is not a sky diving helmet. It is a novelty cruiser helmet for one who wants to look cool as they thunder down on their harley, Indian, etc.As to helmet certification, this is not a DOT approved helmet. Although this may not be noted on my web site each customer who purchases understands the novelty rating. You ask ," Why is it advertised with sky diving helmets?"Bonehead composites is my life and my company, no body elses. As my life changes so too will my company and product line. More points out to those who guessed I bought a motorcycle. Open minds are good tunneled ones are bad. Life is already complicated enough to figure out, don't make it more difficult for those already doing their best to survive. You know, I am only able to do one thing really good, bringing creative ideas to reality. Over the course of my short beautiful life I hope to share many of these ideas with those who find them useful. They may not always relate to skydiving because skydiving does not always relate to life. I can promise only one thing, I'll do the best I can for as long as I am. Pretty simple seems to work better for most people like myself. Sorry to sound harsh or rude , just felt i needed to defend my life a bit. No hard feelings. Chris Frisella Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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JDBoston 0 #8 April 5, 2002 I may be over-analyzing it, but "for the biker in all of us," IMHO, means that it's not really for bikers. Think of the other places you hear that expression ("for the [x] in all of us") used. I agree that it's pretty odd marketing.Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,096 #9 April 5, 2002 >Note the name of the helmet - Rider's Rage - think motorcycles...Motorcycle helmets must go through crash testing and be approved by the DOT before they can legally be used on roads. It is not listed in the DOT's list of approved motorcycle helmets, so I'd think it unlikely that they intend to sell them to motorcycle riders.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,096 #10 April 5, 2002 >Plus there is no Shnell(or how ever it is spelled) rating on it , which motorcycle> helmets need.DOT rating is mandatory; Snell rating is optional but a very good idea, since they do a much more comprehensive test than the DOT.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #11 April 5, 2002 The new Bonehead helmets have been made basically directly for swoopers. That is it. They are not road legal and would be just about worthless for anything else besides skydiving, since the other markets have very well made helmets marketed directly for those markets. They were made to sastify swoopers, plain and simple.Oh, they're great for the professional powerdockers too..."Homer Simpson, smiling politely." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #12 April 5, 2002 I've emailed Jeanie and asked her to join in here... they're closed today, but I'd expect her to be chiming in on Monday.When that helmet was first introduced last year it was called the Swoop. The order form I have specifies in two different places that it is a "novelty" helmet. Might be a good idea for them to add that to the website.They are selling them to motorcycle riders - probably those who don't worry about things like DOT ratings...pull & flare,lisa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,096 #13 April 5, 2002 >They are selling them to motorcycle riders - probably those who don't worry>about things like DOT ratings...Interesting - I wonder what the market's like for "fake" helmets?Perhaps more importantly, I wonder if the rider's family will come after Bonehead after the first motorcycle fatality with one of their helmets? If they're like most skydiving helmets they probably say something like "Not intended for any use at all" - but given that they are sold explicitly "for the rider in all of us" it might make things sticky.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rapper4mpi 0 #14 April 5, 2002 Aw, but what about states that do not require helmets? These would be legal to use....-Rap Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #15 April 5, 2002 I wonder just how much we really know about the helmets we use for the various disciplines in skydiving. They are apparently manufactured and sold w/o much in the line of testing or meeting any specifications. Do they really do what we assume or think they do? Is it possible that they do more harm than good and it goes unnoticed because they do not have to meet any safety criteria?alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Geoff 0 #16 April 5, 2002 QuoteIs it possible that they do more harm than good and it goes unnoticed because they do not have to meet any safety criteria?Yes I believe it's more than possible. I especially worry about designs that have a metal bolt (to pivot the visor) right against the jumper's temple. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,096 #17 April 6, 2002 >Do they really do what we assume or think they do? Depends on what you think they will do. At one end of the spectrum, you have Pro-Tecs, and after seeing how much punishment they've absorbed from students, they give you very good protection from impact. At the other extreme you have Gath helmets, which are often worse than useless - a hard shell with little to no lining can actually increase deceleration trauma if you hit a hard surface.I think most helmets are in between. They offer some protection, but nothing like what a motorcycle helmet offers you. Personally, I use a FP-1 to protect my face from feet and my head from the door, and a Protec when I need real protection (BASE jumps, students etc.)>Is it possible that they do more harm than good and it goes unnoticed because> they do not have to meet any safety criteria?Not only possible, I suspect that is likely.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dayle 0 #18 April 6, 2002 I don't think that's what this is at all, this is just a company trying to make more money by expanding their market. I don't think ANY skydiver in their right mind would jump a helmet with spikes, never mind any DZ that would let him get on the plane. (nor anyone that would actually get in the airplance with him.)You never know what it could be used for, could be mountain bikingor maybe just cycling, I've seen bike couriers with spikes on their helmets racing around the city. Who's to say that a whitewater kayaker might want that as a "cool" helmet to wear.Or, how about fishing?? I have a friend that takes part in bass fishing tournaments. Some of those boats to 85 mph across the water. Some of them have taken to wear helmets. My friend has also bought two pair of high speed goggles off of me. This can only be a good thing. We have a sport that is limited in our overall "population" in sheer terms of numbers. If the manufacturers can churn out "our" equipment to other markets, hopefully some of the prices will come down.What does piss me off however is what I heard from another skydiver at the DZ. He saw an add under a different makers lable, of practically an exact duplicate of a full face skydiving helmet from a certain manufacturer (cant remember which one) that was being sold as a bass fishing helmet. FOR HALF THE F@#*ING PRICE!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,096 #19 April 6, 2002 >He saw an add under a different makers lable, of practically an exact duplicate >of a full face skydiving helmet from a certain manufacturer (cant remember which> one) that was being sold as a bass fishing helmet.People use full face helmets for bass fishing? I had no idea it was such a full-contact sport . . . do the fish fight back?-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #20 April 6, 2002 QuotePeople use full face helmets for bass fishing? I had no idea it was such a full-contact sport . . . do the fish fight back?It's the rediculous nature of the "sport" - people tear up perfectly good lakes with 15 foot fibreglass flat-hull boats with three hundred horsepower engines. They wear helmets for when they get ejected from the boat at 85MPH._Am (prefers to tear up the St. Lawrence River in dads 25foot v-hull, but only at 60mph)ICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dayle 0 #21 April 7, 2002 The next post got it right Bill, It's for if they get ejected from the boats. And they call me insane for jumping out of planes!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dayle 0 #22 April 7, 2002 I hear you andy, I prefer a cigarette boat myself for the high speed, not the puny bass boats. But there is a rush about going across the water at Very high rates of speed!!!Dayle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeanJeanie 0 #23 April 8, 2002 Bill, go to a search engine and type in "novelty Motorcycle Helmets"Hog Riders like rules and regulations less than we do. in reality very few states require helmets, let alone, DOT for folks over 17 years of age. The Novelty Motorcycle Helmet Market is HUGE.Actually Snell is much tougher that DOT. But basically it is all about impact attenuation, shock dispersion and penetration.... (he he , I said "Penetration"...........). DOT does not test, they set criteria and standards for independent testing. Then randomly test companies claiming to meet ratings."If you are going make a novelty helmet, make it novel."Jeanjeanie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #24 April 8, 2002 Actually, there's 20 states that require helmets for all riders. And most of the time the law reads ".... state approved helmet..." is required - which typically means it has to have a DOT or Snell sticker.3 or 4 states have no helmet laws at all, and the rest have laws for 'novice' riders or those under a certain age (usually 17 or 20)DOT and Snell do work differently - I could make a helmet and put a DOT sticker on it and sell it to you. Maybe at some point down the road my helmet might actually get tested and shown not to meet their standards, and I'd not be allowed to put the sticker on there anymore. I'd have to apply for and earn the right to say my helmet meets the Snell standards. The standards are different, and most people agree Snell's are a better set.Got a $10 head? Buy a $10 helmet. "Wait! You didn't get that on tape did you!?" Goat #1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JFCHRISTOPHER 0 #25 April 8, 2002 How about I shed a little light on this topic. Chris frisella here, owner of Bonehead composites to express a few thoughts and hopefully clear up the Rider's Rage controversy so we can all go on to more creative tangents.I can understand how the purpose of this helmet may be confusing since it is advertised with our other helmets primarly used for skydiving, but the clue is in the name. Rider's Rage- points go out to Lisa for picking up on that. You go girl. This is not a sky diving helmet. It is a novelty cruiser helmet for one who wants to look cool as they thunder down on their harley, Indian, etc.As to helmet certification, this is not a DOT approved helmet. Although this may not be noted on my web site each customer who purchases understands the novelty rating. You ask ," Why is it advertised with sky diving helmets?"Bonehead composites is my life and my company, no body elses. As my life changes so too will my company and product line. More points out to those who guessed I bought a motorcycle. Open minds are good tunneled ones are bad. Life is already complicated enough to figure out, don't make it more difficult for those already doing their best to survive. You know, I am only able to do one thing really good, bringing creative ideas to reality. Over the course of my short beautiful life I hope to share many of these ideas with those who find them useful. They may not always relate to skydiving because skydiving does not always relate to life. I can promise only one thing, I'll do the best I can for as long as I am. Pretty simple seems to work better for most people like myself. Sorry to sound harsh or rude , just felt i needed to defend my life a bit. No hard feelings. Chris Frisella Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
