Reflex BOC

[lippy 918]

So I just shipped my Reflex out the other day for my rigger to assemble it, and I'm wondering if anybody here jumps one, and if their BOC is like mine. As opposed to most all other BOCs I've seen, this one isn't made of spandex. It's just like the rest of the container, and at the end there's a little piece of scrunchy like material holding it tight. Anybody know the know of any problems this type of set-up has/might cause. Should I jump it as is, or get my rigger to convert it? Any info appreciated,
It's not a real sport unless you can die from massive internal trauma
Lippy

[skybytch 273]

I put over 130 jumps on my Reflex with the cordura BOC pouch. I liked it. Never had a problem. I had the same type ROL pouch on my old Racer; liked that too, never had a problem.
pull & flare,
lisa
"But our reality is in fact entire illusion!"
-Gregory Benford

[quade 4]

About 800 jumps on my Reflex with no issues regarding the pouch.
I personally don't see how it's any less safe than the all spandex pouches and to my eyes actually seems a little better, but that's just my opinion and not a very well educated one at that.
With regards and fear towards packing a hard/no pull, I believe it has a lot to do with the way you fold and stow your pilot chute. I personally can't imagine packing something in such a way that it wouldn't come out of the pocket, but I suppose it's possible. I believe that as long as the hacky stay attached, I'll be able to pull it out.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[lippy 918]

Thanks guysIt's not a real sport unless you can die from massive internal trauma
Lippy

[billvon 3,107]

I like mine a lot. I've put about 800 jumps on it so far. Only minor annoyance is that I have to be careful about how I pack it - if I'm careless about reserve bulk or riser placement the riser covers don't stay closed very well.
-bill von

[skybytch 273]

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By the way, how did you like your Reflexs aside from the BOC.

I loved mine. It was really comfortable, both harness and container, flaps were snug, and imho it looked really good.
pull & flare,
lisa
"But our reality is in fact entire illusion!"
-Gregory Benford

[quade 4]

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By the way, how did you like your Reflexs . . .

With about 800 jumps on it I like it a LOT. I'm not certain if it's just that I'm used to it, it was custom made or what, but I like the way it feels much better than my new Javelin. Then again, I bought the Jav out of pre-made stock.
I found that with my style of flying -both- the Reflex and the Javelin require a little butt bungee to keep the leg straps from slipping toward the knees. The Reflex required the install as a mod, but the Jav came with the attachment points already installed -- all I needed was a piece of bungee. Keeps the leg straps high up in the crotch where they belong.
http://futurecam.com

[ramon 0]

The cordura pouch is fine and it won't wear out like spandex.
Bungee on leg straps for free flying is a good option.
I only have one video where anything is open on mine (riser cover) and it was open on exit not because of freeflying.
ramon
P.S. Make sure you keep your pop top tight and have your rigger tighten it (if you watch him/her make sure they jerk the closing loop as opposed to pulling really long and hard. Always check your reserve pin to make sure it is not kinked. a kinked reserve pin will kill you with out a cypres to cut your reserve closing loop if you have a mal.

[lippy 918]

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a kinked reserve pin will kill you with out a cypres to cut your reserve closing loop if you have a mal.

I do have a Cypres, but I always check my gear thourghouly(spelling?) before putting it on, and I would never, ever say: it's okay to jump with it kinked 'cause the Cypres will chop it. Again, not that I'd jump something like that, but I'd think my RSL would be able to get it out, as long as something was inflated over my head.
It's not a real sport unless you can die from massive internal trauma
Lippy

[PhreeZone 20]

A simple spin on the pop-top of a Reflex will make a pin pull impossible. The way the loop is set, a kink is enough that it can cause it to prevent a pin pull on the reserve. Just keep that in mind and always make sure ther top is lined up properly after every jump. No RSL/pulling action will pull it if the top is spun around.
I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB

[ramon 0]

that is right, a person would be hanging from their RSL all the way down.
ramon

[billvon 3,107]

>A simple spin on the pop-top of a Reflex will make a pin pull impossible.
I've tried this. It does not make a pull impossible. The more you twist the poptop, the tighter the closing loop gets, but I turned it 180 and it still opened just fine. BTW, the PC is very, very hard to turn, and gets harder the more you turn it. To turn it at all you have to remove the fabric cover and get a good grip on the fiberglass PC top, which is something that most jumpers don't generally do.
Not quite sure how this particular rumor got started. The cynic in me thinks that some gear manufacturer started it to push his particular flavor of poptop, but hopefully that's not the case.
-bill von

[PhreeZone 20]

I was told that if you could spin it a complete 360 degrees a properly tightened closing loop would have enough tension to bend the pin causing a near impossible pull, if this is true or not I'm not sure, but thats what I've heard around the DZ....
I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB

[billvon 3,107]

>I was told that if you could spin it a complete 360 degrees a properly
>tightened closing loop would have enough tension to bend the pin causing a near
>impossible pull . . .
That may well be true, but if I take a Racer (for example) and pull the reserve risers all the way out without opening the reserve container, you may get a reserve malfunction. If you take a Javelin and just pull on the final closing flap on the reserve until the pin bends you might have a similar impossible pull..
Of course, I don't know why you'd do any of those things, just as I don't know why you would try to spin the poptop on a Reflex. It takes a lot of effort, and a long time, to do it.
-bill von

[Kirils 1]

I have 2 Reflexes and I think they are the best pop-top out there. The bridle coverage is just about the best going. It's too bad the company went belly up. Bomber has done an excellent job keeping these rigs flying! I really don't have any worries about buying another.
Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability...

[DanG 1]

The cordura BOC is fine as long as there is proper tension in the elastic in the mouth. My girlfriend has a Reflex, and ended up with a premature deployment out of a sit because the elastic was too loose. Like anything else, you need to properly maintain this part of your gear. She had the elastic tightened by her rigger, and packs the pilot chute a little wider. No more problems.
- Dan G

[pilotdave 0]

Only have about 10 jumps on mine so far but it's been great. Very comfortable (although it's the only rig I've worn other than the student javelins). I have found the "pull force" to be quite a bit higher than I was used to on the student gear, but not uncomfortably high. The pilot chute feels secure in the pouch, but comes out easy enough. I like the cordura pouch because I think it won't wear out as fast as spandex, especially since the rig sits right on the pouch. Haven't had any problems with the rig yet. I don't really see how the pop top could get spun around enough to mess anything up. It doesn't move easily so it's definitely not going to happen by mistake.
Dave
http://www.skydivingmovies.com

[AggieDave 6]

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I don't really see how the pop top could get spun around enough to mess anything up. It doesn't move easily so it's definitely not going to happen by mistake

Talk to some CReW dogz about them, you'll get some interesting answers. Basically most of the serious CReW guys I know don't want to jump with someone if they have a rig with a pop-top like that, or if they do they are *very* careful.
"Homer Simpson, smiling politely."

[Remster 30]

Dave,
CReW issues with pop tops have nothing to do with the pop tops getting spun around.
a few hard core CReW team from out west were jumping with Reflexes (the C class, now the standard one with the "flapettes").
Remster
Muff 914

[AggieDave 6]

Oh, sorry, I guess I read through all the posts too quickly and missed the point, I thought people were talking about issues with the pop-top getting dislodged. *sorry*
"Homer Simpson, smiling politely."

[councilman24 37]

I have to admit I haven't heard this one before but it seems nuts to me. I don't think I could "spin" my Reflex top if my life depended on it. After having an older Racer reserve total for 1400 ft because a loop hung up, I looked long and hard at the Reflex before I bought one. Looked good and still looks good to me.

[apoil 0]

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By the way, how did you like your Reflexs aside from the BOC. Mine seems real comfy, and I like the way its built, but I've yet to jump it.

The BOC is about the only thing I liked on my reflex.
Everything else was a nightmare of quality control and poor engineering.
First off, unless you have full time access to a rigger who is real experienced at packing them your pop top will loosen up every could of jumps and will just be waiting to snag a line, or the door or something. You can cinch it down again but it will increase your reserve pull force and it will still loosen up again.
My first problem was a Dbag that fell apart after about 75 jumps. It was replaced under recall, but it was a poor batch of material.
I also had ordered the rig sized for a Sabre190 but the fit was incredibly tight. Not that I knew it, I just couldn't pack at the time. This caused the sharks fin closing tab on the pin cover to become bent and the flap would always come open during head-up freeflying.

[billvon 3,107]

>The BOC is about the only thing I liked on my reflex.
>Everything else was a nightmare of quality control and poor engineering.
Interesting. We've had about 40 Reflexes through our DZ over the past few years, and we didn't see the problems you describe. One of the first Reflexes we got had tuck-tabs on the risers that wouldn't release easily for the first 40 jumps or so, but after that it was fine. Didn't see the problem with the poptops you mention.
-bill von

[Topcat 0]

My Reflex had a problem with the reserve cable housing being stitched to the rig off-center - the reserve pin came out of the cable housing at an angle. I sent it back and Fliteline fixed it, but I became aware of the fact that the reserve pin would have to go into the cable housing before it cleared the reserve closing loop. I was worried about if it got stuck there before clearing the loop - yuck.
In all fairness, I have had 2 reserve rides on my Reflex and I had absolutely no problem pulling.
As far as packing the reserve in a Reflex - yes, the rigger needs some practice but after a few times (and someone showing you the tricks) it is easy and quite possible to pack it without the pop top coming loose.
And I would have to really, really try to turn my pop top!
-Sandy

[billbooth 10]

I tried Cordura pouches with elastic mouths 20 years ago, but had a lot of complaints about hard pulls. Going to Spandex pouches solved that problem. It was a godsend to manufacturers, because we have to put a pouch on a rig that will safely allow the use of ANY size pilot chute, made out of any material, from a 36 inch F-111 to a very slippery 18" ZP. It must be easy for the smallest girl to extract, but stay in the pouch during a 300 mph head down dive. Nothing I've tried can do all that but Spandex. But, as has been noted, Spandex is easy to damage, especially on tandem rigs. Boy was I glad when DuPont combined Spandex with Cordura to make Spandura. It has the stretch of Spandex and the toughness of Cordura. It comes in dozens of styles, so it took a lot of experimentation to find the right one, but it sure paid off. We have been using it on Sigma Tandem systems for about a year now, and are very happy with the results. It will become "standard" on all Vectors this month. Who says you can't have your cake and eat it too. I'm sure other manufacturers will eventually "discover" it too, and it will become the industry standard. Bill Booth