Mr. Booth, Mr. Galloway. Chris. Dan

[diverds 0]

I jump a swift plus reserve at a wing loading of 1.42. This is an F-111 canopy and it has landed me well, but I had to fly it well if you know what I mean. I would like to go to a bigger reserve in case I am ever injured or unconcious under it. I feel a lower wing loading could help me under these conditions. However, after talking to some manufactures I was reluctantly convinced to stay with my current reserve. I was told that my reserve should be as close in size to my main as possible because of tests done with 2 canopies out. In these tests when the reserve was not close to the main in size, it caused much more radical results like downplanes and entangelments. When the reserve and the main were closer together in size it generally resulted in a biplane or side by side configuration. So I guess you need to decide which is more likely to happen, 2 canopies out or being in a situation where you are not 100 percent alert under your reserve. By the way, my main is an FX-116 and my reserve is a Swift Plus 175. My exit weight is 250 lbs and I have just over 1700 jumps. I would like to hear from people in the business who know what they are talking about. Chris? Dan? Mr. Booth? Mr. Galloway? Any thoughts?
-Dave
"Gas...Undercarriage...Mixture...Prop...Beer"

[PhreeZone 20]

Have you talked to John LeBlanc about this yet? PD has some good info and they might be able to help you get the info you want better then some of the other gentlemen.
PS. John resonds quickly to inquires via email.
I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB

[diverds 0]

I had not done that but I will. Thanks.
-Dave
"Gas...Undercarriage...Mixture...Prop...Beer"

[diverds 0]

Okay, I went to PD's site but could not find an email address for Mr. LeBlanc. Do you happen to have one?
-Dave
"Gas...Undercarriage...Mixture...Prop...Beer"

[Jussi 0]

try john@performancedesigns.com

[billvon 3,098]

>I was told that my reserve should be as close in size to my main as possible because of tests done with 2 canopies out.
I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Derek recently test-jumped an intentional two-canopy-out situation with a PD170 and a Stiletto 97. He had no problems. For more info take a look at the S+T forum.
-bill von

[diverds 0]

Okay I read the forum. Looks to me like he only made a couple jumps. I believe the other tests were done by the Army and involved many more jumps. Not to say that Dereks test is not valid. I just think opinions should be formed after a little more experimenting then one or two jumps.
-Dave
"Gas...Undercarriage...Mixture...Prop...Beer"

[billvon 3,098]

>I just think opinions should be formed after a little more experimenting then one or two jumps.
Oh, definitely. I just wanted you to be aware that there is some evidence that vastly dissimilar sizes _can_ fly cleanly together. The more evidence the better, of course.
-bill von

[Hooknswoop 19]

I am in the process of doing more 2-out jumps w/ dis-similar performance & sized canopys. The army tests where done to test 2 out under student sized gear and w/ similar canopys. I think the PD test where close to the Army tests. I am pretty sure that both tests involved only a few jumps.
Check PIA website, there is some information there.
Hook

[diverds 0]

Thanks for the info.
-Dave
"Gas...Undercarriage...Mixture...Prop...Beer"

[diverds 0]

For those who are interested, I am pasting an email string between myself and John LeBlanc of PD. He was very insightful on this issue.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Schwartz [mailto:diverds01@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 12:51 PM
To: John LeBlanc
Subject: Reserve/Main Sizes
Mr. LeBlanc,
I jump a Javiln container with an fx-116 and a swift
plus 175. My exit weight is 250 lbs and I have just
over 1700 jumps. I have been wanting to go to a
bigger reserve in case I am ever injured or
unconscious under it. I was told by some people at
Relative Workshop that this would be a bad idea
because of results from testing 2 squares out that are
not close in size. Do you have any thoughts on this?
I am not fond of the idea of jumping a reserve at
higher wing loadings. I feel that there is just as
good a chance of being injured or at least not 100
percent mentally there under a single reserve as there
is of having 2 canopies out. I have landed my reserve
off the airport and had no problems, but what about
next time? Is there any thought going into this
problem of mismatched canopies? In short, I want my
fast main with a docile reserve. Is this possible?
=====
Blue Skies,
Dave S.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave,
You've made a great case for being conservative in the
choice of your reserve, but the choice of main isn't
very congruent with this conservatism, is it?
We have done extensive testing on the two canopies out
situation, doing so on other brands of equipment as
well as our own. A very sanitized report on this testing
is available at www.performancedesigns.com. (I believe
it is in the articles or seminars section.) I would
prefer not sharing the gory details of the test jumps
with you in detail, but let me say that the mismatched
canopy combinations were pretty ugly. The smaller
canopy does not stay very stable, and can buckle and
distort into a totally unflyable shape. Basically, the
bigger canopy eats the little canopy. We didn't test with
cross braced canopies at the time, but I think they
would be worse due to the smaller inlet shape and more
critical airfoil characteristics.
I am surprised that you are willing to jump such a
small canopy as a main, but are so conservative on the
reserve. There are several people who lean toward this
direction, but making such a big jump in size such as
this is unusual. Most bad spots occur when flying your
main, since you fly it so often. It is true that your
spot tends to get worse when you open lower on your
reserve. Another thing to consider is that many people
(including me) have a tough time flying accurately on a
big canopy when current only on small ones. I'd just
as soon take a familiar smaller canopy into a tight
place than a bigger unfamiliar one. If you need the steep
vertical sink to get in there, then I won't jump in
that environment without leaving myself a big out to
prevent that, or at least I'll pay a hell of a lot of
attention to where I am at all times!
Skydiving has its risks, and participants must decide
which risks are acceptable and which are not.
Obviously the huge risks of flying a FX116 are at a level you
are willing to take responsibility for. The way I see
it, when I am flying a really small canopy, I give
myself so much room for error on the spot and opening
altitude, that I'm willing to jump a small reserve.
As for the durability of the reserve, I can't speak
for other makes, but having participated in the
development and testing of our reserves, I know that we've
tested all of ours at 300 pounds or higher, at 180 knots
or higher, and I know that the forces are actually
lower on the 126 size I would choose than on the bigger
ones.
As for the unconsiousness issue, there have been
several heavy people who have landed without injury under
really small PD reserves, but again, its a bit of a
crap shoot. On the other hand, no reserve will be big
enough to allow survival if you fly downwind into the
side of a building. Several years back an unconcious
person flew through the side of a motorhome at Quincy,
taking his head off. So we get back to the question,
"What level of risk is acceptable?" In the end, the choice
is yours, but it should be a well though out one that
includes looking at as many risks as you can forsee,
and then deciding which ones are worth assuming. This
includes evaluating the risks of having two highly
unmatched canopies out, and deciding if that risk is one
you want to take over the other risks involved with the
other options. I hesitate to recommend that anyone go
smaller on their reserve, but in your case I think it
is the second best option, right behind going to a
bigger main.
By the way many people who are flying our Velocities
use a PD reserve one size larger, but no more. For
example, a person flying a Velocity 111 might choose a
PD-126 reserve, rather than a 113. (I have flown both the
113 and the 126 at your wingloading, and they land
great in this range if your approach and flare is
reasonable. You may want to go to the PD-143 size, but there
is the risk that having two squares out is more likely
to cause problems.
We also make our PD reserves available as demos, so
you can see how they fly, stepping down in size if you
feel it is necessary. I hope this information helps you
make a good choice.
Sincerely,
John LeBlanc
Vice President
-Dave
"Gas...Undercarriage...Mixture...Prop...Beer"

[ramon 0]

I talked to John in Chicago he really is a nice person who will take the time to talk/explain something to you.
I was demo jumping a lot of his gear after I lost my main in the corn fields
ramon

[SkyMissy 0]

That is a very interesting dialogue. Thanks for posting it! I'm also a fat guy with a relatively litle main and was wanting to upsize my reserve. I am now reconsidering.
I'm not the man they think I am at home, no;
I'm a rocket man.
Sky World

[diverds 0]

No problem, I hope to still hear from George Galloway and Bill Booth. I would like to get their take as well.
-Dave
"Gas...Undercarriage...Mixture...Prop...Beer"

[prost 0]

There is one other area of concern with a small reserve that has been over looked. What if something does go wrong with the reserve like some broken lines due to premature deployment while head down. I once landed a Raven 1-181 with three broken line sets (the broken line sets were not the reserves fault, they were cut, long story). I don't know if I could do that under a 120 square foot canopy.
William

[diverds 0]

Quote

the broken line sets were not the reserves fault, they were cut, long story

Long story? I have time! WTF!
-Dave
"Gas...Undercarriage...Mixture...Prop...Beer"

[SkyMissy 0]

Cut reserve lines, huh? I hope you changed riggers, or girlfriends!!
I'm not the man they think I am at home, no;
I'm a rocket man.
Sky World

[polarbear 1]

I also am very interested in this dialougue. I currently jump comparable sized mains and reserves, but had planned to go no smaller than my PD160R as I downsized the main. I agree with most of the 2 canopy out arguments, but I personally find it much more likely that I will be out under a single reserve than a duel-canopy configuration. I guess I don't believe that a small, 7-cell F-111 canopy is going to have all that good of a flare, particularly considering that you won't be used to flying it. I am also concerned about the opening issues with smaller reserves. I will accept them on a main, but spinning line twists on a reserve doesn't sound like fun. I think I just might take up PD's offer and demo a reserve.
By the way, I have personally seen a Velocity 103 and a Tempo 150 in a perfectly stable personal biplane. Granted, this is only one instance.

[prost 0]

Ok, I will try to make this story as short as possible. I posted it before but can't find it now. I was on an intermediate skyboard. One of the bindings came loose. I tried to ride it down with one foot on top. Kicked out to the side. Hit free foot fracturing it. Pulled every muscle in attached leg. Cocked out to side. Put me into a position where I was spinning and rotating with the board above me spinning on the outside. Angle of board off the side of my foot caused the two ring release to fold over and cutaway would not release. G-forces were so strong by this point I could not reach in to pull my reserve handle. Reached across with oppisite hand to pull reserve since this was direction of spin just as I was losing consciousness. After white out began to go away I realized I was under my reserve but spiralling. I managed to get the board off my foot (not easy since I couldn't move my leg at all). When I looked up, I saw three line sets were cut from going through the board. I decided not to unstow the brakes for fear that it would get worse. I leveled the canopy out with rear riser input and managed to plow into a field where I layed untill people showed up to get me. They were able to break the rest of the lines my hand because of the damage they sustained from going through the spinning board. I was purple from the ears up. I burst all of the blood vessels in my eyes. They were bloody for a month afterwards (looked very scary). The doctors said the G-forces were so high I would have died before my cypress fired. Not one of my better days.
William

[Lindsey 0]

Now that's quite a story.....wow.....
Eve was framed!

[n2skdvn 0]

damm man glad to har you are all right!!!cypress saves lives!!!!!
if ya can't dodge it RAM IT !!!!!!

[rmsmith 1]

>Ok, I will try to make this story as short as possible...snip
>Not one of my better days.
Hey, pretty modest there, William.
BTW, I did see your previous post; a harrowing story!
--rmsmith

[Remster 30]

Quote

damm man glad to har you are all right!!!cypress saves lives!!!!!

???
My understanding from the story is that HE pulled hi reserve handle.
Remster
Muff 914

[foos 0]

great story William,
good job on pulling the reserve
foos

[n2skdvn 0]

my bad i was getting sleepy when i read it!!! sorry
wild story. somthing i would not want to go through!
if ya can't dodge it RAM IT !!!!!!