SOS, RSL, and Cutaway?

[fred 0]

Well, as I've expressed 100 times before, I'm very new to this sport, but I am trying to think logically about my equipment. We had a debate in the pub the other night about whether an SOS was proper for students, but that's not the point of my question. I'm wondering why, even with a seperate cutaway handle, rigs don't have an SOS-type setup on their reserve handle.
I can see the advantage to a seperate cutaway on a canopy wrap situation or some other circumstance where you'd want to have distance between you and your main before you deploy your reserve, but is there any reason you'd want to be able to deploy you reserve without cutting away your main? Is there, perhaps, a technical reason why you can't have a seperate cutaway with an SOS system?
The more I read, the more I want both on my rig. Is this doable? Does anybody make a rig like this? Why not? Wouldn't this be a good way to train students?
Somebody put me straight... why is this a bad idea?

[AndyMan 7]

If you find yourself very low under a semi-useful main, you can do what's called a "canopy transfer". This worked best with a round reserve, but in a nutshell, you deploy your reserve BEFORE you chop the main. Not recomended for any but the most experienced pilots, it used to be done a whole lot more commonly then now.
Secondly, under highly loaded elipticals, there is a debate whether RSL's are a good thing. All of the arguments against RSL's apply to SOS systems. If highly loaded elipticals are in a spin, the jumper will be spinning when they cuttawa, they will end up in what could be severe line twists under the reserve. There is an argument that in this situation, the jumper should delay dumping the reserve to get stable, if altitude allows for it.
So that rules out not having SOS for people under highly loaded elipticals, people who want to do canopy transfers, and as you mentioned, people doing CReW. Commonality of gear is important. It's a good thing that every sport rig has the same emergency procedures. We don't want to create an environment where you have to get trained for the brand or type of rig that you're jumping. We currently do this with tandem rigs. Each brand of Tandem rigs have different systems.
_Am

[Hooknswoop 19]

Fred-
There are student rigs w/ a cutaway handle and an SOS (and RSL). The idea is even if the student screws up and pulls the handles in the wrong order or only pulls one handle, as long as the main is out, it will release and the reserve will deploy. As far as I know, Skydive Chicago is the only DZ using this system, although i am sure others are too. Except for the addtional initial cost and having to replace the loop on each riser if the student does pull the handles correctly, there isn't a downside to the system for student use.
For experienced jumpers, the system doesn't allow the possibility of getting stable (or clear of an entanglement) for the reserve deployment after cutting away (if altitude allows) and takes away the option of not cutting away from a PC in tow. also I believe the option is not offered on mini-risers because of the two groments requires to make the system work.
Derek

[PhreeZone 20]

Why is it a bad idea? If you have a total and then cutaway, the main risers can flop around and entangle with the reserve deployment. This entanglement is slim, but it has happened.
Having seperate handles helps in lots of situations. If I'm in a spinning mal, I want to take a few seconds to get stable after I cutaway to make sure the reserve won't deploy around my body. Also If I have a premature opening at a high altitude and it shreds my canopy, I want to be able to control when I cutaway and how long I freefall till i hit the reserve again.
Why is SOS bad? You will always revert to what you were first taught in an emergency. If you were tought to hit the left handle and thats it, on sport gear all you did is deploy your reserve and probally make a bad situation worse. There has been more then one fatility that was thought to be linked to this exact problem.
The best thing to think of is KISS in terms of your gear.... Keep It Simple Stupid. (No offence ment) The more things you add to your rig, the more things to go wrong.
Political Correctness-At least one person at any one time will be offended by something

[fred 0]

Phree, I can understand the KISS explanation. And I don't know enough about the gear to know why an SOS and seperate cutaway would be all that much more complex. It seems to me that it would require a Y joint in a cable, well protected under a hard casing. Perhaps I'm not completely clear on what's going on behind the scenes or how sensitive this equipment is.

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For experienced jumpers, the system doesn't allow the possibility of getting stable (or clear of an entanglement) for the reserve deployment after cutting away

But it certainly does. Imagine a right handle that just cuts away your main, and a left handle that cuts away and deploys the reserve.
It gives the diver the choice of waiting to get free/stable, without deploying the secondary chute, without allowing them to make the mistake of an unintentional two-out situation.
I'd also ask that you ignore my mention of RSL in the title. I'm familiar with the complaints about an RSL, and they seem to apply to an SOS system just as well. So ignore it.
I haven't heard much about canopy transfers, but are they really a good idea? Do most skydivers know how to perform one safely?
Sorry, it still seems to me that having an SOS on my reserve is not going to hurt me, if I have a seperate cutaway handle. The only problem I can see is if it is technologically complex. Is it? Am I missing something else?

[lazerq3 0]

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It gives the diver the choice of waiting to get free/stable, without deploying the secondary chute, without allowing them to make the mistake of an unintentional two-out situation.

To me though I have enough to worry about in a mal situation....I dont want to have to think about Hmmm should I pull this handle or this handle, I should know the mal and what to do in that certain situation and chop and pull the reserve. I'll worry about getting stable after I clear the main if altitude permits. Just my .02
jason

[fred 0]

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To me though I have enough to worry about in a mal situation....I dont want to have to think about Hmmm should I pull this handle or this handle, I should know the mal and what to do in that certain situation and chop and pull the reserve. I'll worry about getting stable after I clear the main if altitude permits.

Again I say... This would not be any different in the system I've suggested. You've been taught, "Pull right, pull left". All I'm saying is that I want my left handle to actually do the same thing as my right, *as well*. It doesn't hurt if you cutaway first, since 1/2 of the SOS system will simply have no affect. If you're panicking, you can do either: Pull right then left, or even just do something not recommended, and pull left only. I'm saying it should have the same result. In my mind, it just lowers the chances of two out, without making the odds of anything else worse. This makes it a good plan in my mind, and I'd like it on my equipment.
I still expect that I'm missing something. Am I being unclear? I want a right handle to cutaway. I want a left handle to cutaway with a small delay and then deploy reserve. It seems safer to me...

[PhreeZone 20]

Well.. Try and pull a Y joint through 1/4 in hard housings or even worse soft housings and you will see why its bad juju. It would require a completely new tubing structure to create it. Larger tubes allow junk to get in them easier and that allows for jams and hard cutaways when you least expect it.
An SOS system on the reserve limits your emergency procedures in a total or something like a pilotchute in tow. No matter what you are now going to have to have a cutaway performed on the main. There are some situations where having 2 canopies out is preferable to being forced to ditch a good main.
Personally, if anything I'd rather have the choice of cutaway and reserve fire or reserve pull. Sounds just like an RSL....
Political Correctness-At least one person at any one time will be offended by something

[skymedic 0]

Skydive Sebastian has a few rigs set up this way too...with both a cutaway handle with rsl...and a reserve handle that will also cut the main away....
marc
"...a mind stretched with new idea's will never regain its shape"

[riggerrob 643]

First of all, SOS has traditionally been limited to first jump students. The logic is that they are severly stressed by just jumping and may not have enough brain cells remaining to pull two handles in the correct sequence.
I have even had a student F-up pulling an SOS handle, but that is another story.
SOS was invented by Parachutes Australia back in the 1970s. PA has continued experimenting with variations on SOS.
One thing they were worried about was students who started with SOS then transitioned to 2 handle systems. The Australians were afraid that a student would revert to his earlier training and only pull the left handle. In the late 1980s they showed us a Student Talon they had modified to a dual SOS configuration: ie. pulling the right handle cutaway the main and pulled the reserve ripcord. Pulling the left handle ripcord cutaway the main and then pulled the reserve ripcord. This meant 6 cables, more housings than I can count and dozens of opportunities for mis-routing.
A couple of American companies have also played with this concept. Dolphin definitely and I heard rumors about a few Student Javelins modified to dual SOS configuration. Call the factories.
The current standard may not be perfect, but it is the least of the evils.
I am not trying to discourage your questions.
From time to time we should review our methods. Best to ask these questions of older jumpers who have seen the cycle more than once. Non standard handles killed a lot of people before we standardized in the early 1980s.
No need to repave that road with blood.

[Geoff 0]

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I haven't heard much about canopy transfers, but are they really a good idea? Do most skydivers know how to perform one safely?

It's a HIGHLY risky operation, with a high chance of getting two canopies entanged. I would only even attempt it as a very last resort if my main was un-landable, but I was too low to cut away. Example: after a very low canopy collision trashes your main.
In virtually any other situation, it's a very bad idea.
Geoff

[PhreeZone 20]

In a Case like that... you might even want to condiser landing the double out config if the main is flying half way straight. Problem with an SOS is that if you get a trashed canopy low, you can't induce a double out, which would be preferable to freefalling and having the reserve open too low.
Political Correctness-At least one person at any one time will be offended by something

[Aviatrr 0]

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In a Case like that... you might even want to condiser landing the double out config if the main is flying half way straight.

But, of course, not every canopy configuration is going to fly well together.. My main/reserve combo will more than likely NOT fly well together, and I wouldn't be suprised to see a downplane if I end up with 2 out..
Mike