rhino 0 #1 February 4, 2002 I'm looking for performance info on the Crossfire and the Vengeance??? Any opinions on speed, turn rate, landings?? Example would be loading it at 1.7 ish.. How comparable are the 2, which do you like better and why?RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #2 February 4, 2002 They are totally different. The Vengence dives hard on front risers and will dive to till impact if you let it. The rigidity of the Airlocks makes the canopy feel like a fixed wing above your head. The canopy has problems getting any swoop with out speed induced by at least a 90 and preferably a 180 or more carve on front risers. A straight in approach on a Vengence is just wasting the potential of the canopy.I'm yet to jump a Crossfire but by all acounts the front riser pressure is heavy. And by heavy I mean its hard to hold a 360 let along a 520. The Landings are super easy with speed. It seems to need less speed then the Vengence, but it still need at least a 90 carve in order to have great landings. Based on watching 200+ Crossfire landings it seems to be a 270 is the best carve vs swoop. The issues with this canopy have not been address to my satisfaction, so you won't find me jumping one any time soon.Another canopy in the same proformace area as a Crossfire is a Cobalt. I jump one so I'm a bit jaded on them, but over all its less of a canopy then a Stiletto in some parts (Turn rate, twitchyness, availibity) and better in others (Flare, glide rate, openings). There is tons of lift, but it does need speed just like the Vengence to perform well. Lots of info has been wrote on them in the past and I won't go into it anymore.Compaired to what you are jumping now, any 9 cell ZP will help your flare issue. Diablos are just fine up to about 1.5:1 anything over that and you are watsing your time under the canopy. Look at a Sabre2 and a Safire too. The 9 cell change will give tons more lift then any 7 cell ever could.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #3 February 4, 2002 Don't think I would safely want to hit a Safire or Sabre2 at over 1.6 if you know what I mean.. I'm having lots of fun where I am wing loading wise. The faster it turns and the faster it dives the more fun It is. I must be nuts but it is fun as hell!!!! Damn I hate winters!! Thanks for the info.. RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #4 February 4, 2002 If I know what you mean? I guess not since I just recommended you to look at those canopies...What are the exact require ments of your ideal canopy? The way it sounds you only want to play agressivly till a point then want to do a docile landing. If thats the case, none of the canopys you are asking about will really do that. No canopy made today really fits those requirements. The 7 cells like the Spectre and the Diablo do it best if you call them good at it. If a canopy turns quick it usually is going to perform better and safer with some speed induced before landing. If you just what to shoot straight in landings all day with no riser dives or anything, look at a square not an elliptical canopy. The square or semi elliptical will be a better choice then a highly loaded elliptical. Have you ever had an elliptical spin up on you due to a stall? How about a spinning opening? The heavier you load a canopy the more likely this will happen.Look at the Wing Loading seminar the John LeBlanc teaches, Wingloading is increased mainly for creating a faster sink and forward motion rate. The increased loading will allow a canopy to dive longer and steeper closer to the ground then a lighter loaded canopy. If you are not using the added wingloading down low, then in many aspects you are wasting the smaller canopy and you would be better with a larger canopy that allows for more safety.PD does not recommend the Velocity till after several seasons of High proformance canopy flying. Icarus says way too many people are not flying thier canopys to the limits and would be better to upsize and then fly the larger canopy to the max. Many highly experience and reguarded canopy pilots say you don't even really start to get the feel for a canopy till after 1-200 jumps on it. And then it takes another 200 minimum to really get the canopy performing to the point were it does every thing you want it to when you want it to. That goes with any canopy at any loading.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prost 0 #5 February 4, 2002 Crossfires have hard riser pressure??? I used to jump a crossfire. I could spiral it with front risers as long as I wanted and then whip it back the other way with front risers. The riser pressure was the lightest I have seen. I still jump some of the ones around the drop zone from time to time. If I jump one loaded the same as my FX it dives just as hard.William Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #6 February 4, 2002 QuoteCrossfires have hard riser pressure??? A couple of people have said that the line trim "fix" makes the riser pressure a lot harder than it used to be."Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #7 February 4, 2002 Well, it was light before the "Mod". After some of the canopys came back from getting "Upgraded" with new "Trim settings" I've heard from quite a few people they act like a totally different canopy. Lots harder riser pressure, twitchy openings, and lots of other things. One person at the local DZ was talking about getting a different canopy since his favorite canopy was unreconizable to him any more.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #8 February 4, 2002 I have a brand spanking new crossfire all of 6 jumps on it, got it just a few weeks ago. I can't tell the difference in riser pressure from my old crossfire. My boyfriend who jumped it to make sure that there were no problems with it in front riser turns said that he had no problem doing 720s with it (yeah he was front risering the shit out of it) or holding double fronts for as long as he wanted. He said it flew extremely stable and really like it.btw...you can ask Zennie my bf is definately qualified to test jump and judge canopies.Kelli Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #9 February 4, 2002 Don't get me wrong.. I WRENCH and I do mean WRENCH the hell out of the canopy.. I am stepping down slowly.. I am just VERY carefull to learn everything the canopy does before I get around other canopies. I frequently do 120 to 180 degree carves that build up MASSIVE amounts of speed. Way too much fun!! I don't think I will ever be able to fly a bigger canopy after experiencing a high performance one. I really enjoy doing a 180 front riser, hanging for as long as I can hold it and ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMM!!! I'm always high but that's a good thing!! :) I don't intend to hurt myself or anyone else.. I have definately had spinning, diving openings.. I have come to expect them and compensate as they come. Considering I can lose 2 grand pretty quick getting out of one I always pull above 4500 feet.. And I will until I feel a bit more confident with the openings.. I am learning quickly how the weight distribution in the harness can correct the problem before it happens.. Flying through the opening I guess you can say. The Diablo at my wing loading likes to dive.. I find myself frequently on the rear risers on opening just to level it out so I can get my shit together and let the big dog eat.. I like what my diablo does and I land it well I just want a bit more at the bottom end.. I have seen a few crossfires POP up at the end of the surfs.. I would like to have the energy and performance left at the end of the surf to do that.. Most of my landings are 90 plus front riser carves..RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #10 February 4, 2002 Quoteyou can ask Zennie my bf is definately qualified to test jump and judge canopyYeah I'll definitely vouch for him. He's one of the few people in Houston who actually flies a VX the way they're supposed to be flown. "Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #11 February 4, 2002 QuoteI am stepping down slowlyHahahaha.... thats funny... Just the other day you were saying after 130 jumps you have wnet through 5 canopies and were getting smaller and more agressive every 30 jumps or so.While full altitude hop and pops teach you a lot about the basics of a canopy, somethings can only be learned down low when things start happening fast. If you still have'nt learned to control your openings by harness adjustments, then you have no business jumping anything near the complexity you are. Crossbraced dance way more then any other canopy durning open and controling them through the harness is sometimes required to stay alive.Remind me to stay away from Spaceland if this type of canopy attitude is encouraged or even tolerated there.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #12 February 4, 2002 Kelly!! Holy shit!! I didn't know that was you!! lolYes I know he is qualified,,, Without a doubt.. He is the person that really showed me how to track!! :) lol What was he jumping? A VX 60????? He is definately fun to watch!! I miss Texas!!Rob CowanBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #13 February 4, 2002 If I said that it's the truth... And if you don't goto Spaceland that's your loss my friend.. It is the best DZ I've ever seen..Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #14 February 4, 2002 QuoteA VX 60????? He is definately fun to watch!! I miss Texas!!Yep he is still on his 60, he is looking very pretty. This weekend him and another guy up at Dallas were doing formation swooping, it was sweet to watch. Of course you know he will be the first to tell you to pay your dues before downsizing. Lets see he had something like 800 jumps on the 70 before he went to the 60 which he now has something like 600 jumps on, and before those he had over 1000 on an Alpha something or other.Kelli Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #15 February 4, 2002 QuoteI didn't say that?????Actually, you did. It starts after the 17th word in your previous posting.QuoteI'm always high but that's a good thing!! :) I don't intend to hurt myself or anyone else.It's already been mentioned that doing your high performance manuvers up high is nice, but hardly makes you safer than anyone else. I'll go so far as to argue that by really working the canopy only up high you're a bit more dangerous than others, what are you going to do when you get into some below 1000 feet? I hope you know, because it doesn't sound like you do.QuoteConsidering I can lose 2 grand pretty quick getting out of one I always pull above 4500 feet.. There was another thread on here where someone, I think it was Bill Von (my apologies if it wasn't), explained that opening high to give yourself 'more time' to deal with potential shit isn't really a good idea. One of the biggest problems with doing this is that one day you'll open lower than usual, think you've got X amount of time, and the results will probably be ugly. Something to think about.QuoteThe Diablo at my wing loading likes to dive.. I find myself frequently on the rear risers on opening just to level it out so I can get my shit together and let the big dog eat..Again, that sounds scary to me - you should have your shit together before you get on the plane, you should have your shit together before you leave the plane, you should have your shit together before you dump. If your canopy scares you so much that you have to get your shit together after you dump you might want to think about a new, perhaps larger and more docile canopy.QuoteI like what my diablo does and I land it well I just want a bit more at the bottom end.. I have seen a few crossfires POP up at the end of the surfs.. I would like to have the energy and performance left at the end of the surf to do that.. It's already been mentioned that almost any 9 cell will give you what you're after, everything from an old fashioned Sabre to a Stiletto/Crossfire/Cobalt.Stay safe.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #16 February 4, 2002 I think you are taking what I am writing out of context. I always have my shit together.. I appreciate the constructive criticism!! Thanks a million..RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #17 February 4, 2002 If you are taking about your housee keeping of poping the cheststrap to the max to let the canopy open up all the way, stowing the collapsed slider behind your head and all the other things needed to allow for extreme canopy flight..... All of that should only need done with no riser input and you should'nt even need to look at the canopy to do it.Call up Brian Germain and talk to him about demoing a Samarui and talk to him about your canopy flight experience and sizing. Tell me what he has to say. Brian and John LeBlanc ARE the experts in my mind. When Brian told me based on my video of my canopy flying that I needed to adjust a lot of things I took his adivce to heart and completly changed my flying tatics. He also told me not to downsize for a while since at 1.25:1 I have a lot more proformance to wring out of the canopy then my 50-75 foot surfs. He was talking like I can get up to 100' with changes in my flying and I still have a big canopy over my head if I need it to sink into somewhere.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #18 February 4, 2002 Good point.. There is no way in hell I could put that Diablo down in a small backyard..Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #19 February 4, 2002 The fact is rhino, we don't know what you mean.PD recomends the Sabre 2 up to a 1.6 wingloading.Considering that Aerodyne doesn't recomend the Diblo above 1.4, you're going to be a whole lot closer then you are now.The characteristics you're seeking exist in the Sabre 2. At a high wingloading, the Sabre 2 is a fun canopy that opens nicely and puts out a nice surf.At least give it a test jump, I think you'll be surprised. If, after jumping it you think it's too tame, then try the stiletto. I can't imagine any scenario that somebody like you should (or rather, should WANT to ) jump a Vengeance. You're just wasting your money because you're not going to use it effectively._Am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #20 February 5, 2002 Quote Don't think I would safely want to hit a Safire or Sabre2 at over 1.6 if you know what I mean.. My second rig has a Sabre2 in it that I load at 1.5.....flies and swoops great.. I've jumped a Sabre2 at almost 1.8, and Scott Miller has jumped the Sabre2 loaded damn near 2.5, IIRC.. I know he competed in swoop competitions on one at something like a 2.0 wing loading.. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amir1967 0 #21 February 5, 2002 what is wrong with the Vengeance at that wing load that you called it waist ?amirAM67 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
