soft reserve handle?

[littlclimb 0]

We just got our new Mirages in and it looks like mine will be going back...they forgot my hip-rings and instead of the standard metal reserve handle they put on a soft handle.
I had my first reserve ride on jump 7. I distinctly remember feeling the cold metal in my hand and there was no doubt that I had a good grip on it when I pulled it.
Before I ask Mirage to put the metal handle on, I'd like to hear some opinions of the soft handle vs the metal handle from those who have had to use them.
Susan

[weid14 0]

soft pud type handle won't snag as easily on a shoe, toe, other rig, plane parts as the open handle. downside -- if your left arm is hurt, harder to pull with the right arm.

[Kris 0]

I ordered my Mirage with a soft-handle because I freefly. When taking weird grips it is a lot harder for someone to accidentally snag my reserve handle. Also, as a JM, I've had my students get real handsy in the plane when the door comes open and I do NOT want them grabbing my handles very easily.
The down-side though is that you need a firmer grip to pull it and I've heard that some DZ's won't let their new graduates jump with one unless they have had already had a cutaway.
Kris

[harro 0]

I have had this argument with people before.
I wanted to get one but the argument was " if you are in a flat spin with high G's you wont be able to get a grip on the pad as well as a metal handle "
Freemind, freesky, freebeer, freefly, freesex

[riggerrob 643]

Back in 1979 my main didn't open.
I pulled a silver ripcord handle.
My 24' flat reserve opened.
I lived.
I decided that silver handles were a good thing.
Please do not waste your breath trying to change my mind.
I never trusted most of the soft ripcord handles introduced in the 1990s. It wasn't until the Vector 3 introduced a "soft" handle with a piece of 1" diameter steel tubing that I trusted a soft handle, but I will still never install a soft handle on my personal rig.
If you worry about someone accidentally grabbing your steel ripcord handle, don't jump with the fumble fingered fool!
Sign me,
an old fart.

[weid14 0]

well, the soft handle can also fold under the harness, too. I witnessed an incident of a fast spinning mal, which was cut away, but the jumper could not get to the reserve handle very easily. I thought he was going in -- he was that low. vector rig, and he had turned off his AAD. luckly he was able to get something out, doubt he had time to unstow the breaks.

[apoil 0]

No one's trying to change your mind, Rob, but the attitude that "this worked once for me therefore it is the best thing" is, shall we say a bit narrow minded.
The pros and cons of soft and hard handles have been pretty much discussed.
I decided to get a soft handle on my second rig after
1) a reported fatality from a head down diver having a dock accidently taken on his silver handle (I call this maneuver the "hi ho silver")
2) In a sit fly train my silver handle was knocked loose early in the dive - fortunately no deployment (until 4000 when I foolishly deployed my main - the reserve pin had probably been loosened enough that opening shock was enough to get it out - having anticipated this possibility I immediately chopped the main and had a clean canopy transfer).
Since I made that decision I have witnessed a helicopter exit where the reserve handle snagged on the door handle and static lined him.
I also met another freeflyer who was the unwitting recipient of a "hi ho silver" from a head down and spent some time in the hospital as a result. Not only was he badly injured, but the webbing on his rig was torn to shit. You don't want a reserve deployment at 175 mph or more. You really don't.
But I do agree that it's probably best to make the switch after you've already proven to yourself AT LEAST ONCE that you can deploy your reserve in the event of a malfunction. Same with the decision to remove an RSL.
For all the talk about how difficult it might be to pull the soft pad, you have to do it to cut away so it can't be that hard. And with a spinning mal, cutaway forces can be even higher than reserve pull.
Also, a ringed harness will flex in such a way that the silver D ring sticks out, rather than laying flat across the rib cage. This increases the risk of a snag. There are some newer shapes to the silver handle that reduce snagability, but none of them eliminate it.

[weid14 0]

in response to: "Also, a ringed harness will flex in such a way that the silver D ring sticks out, rather than laying flat across the rib cage"
not on all harness designs, but a lot of them. The Golden Knights lost 16 way (I think 16 way, might have been 10 way) in 2000 cause one of the guys had his silver handle knocked loose on exit. he put it back in place before they turned any points (must have been 16 way, cause there's no points in 10 way, except the first formation)

[mikefarmer 0]

Hmmm, I'm gonna have to agree with Rob on this one. I want a POSITIVE grip on my reserve handle. 50% of my jumps are freefly and the other 50 are student jumps (usually 1st jumpers). I make it my business to control my students and my (and their) handles. And if you touchee my silver on the skydivee, there will be a talkin to. Them's fightin words in Okahomee! No offense Kris, and you know I'm not questioning your opinion, just giving mine.
Peace out! (And answer my poll on Safety and training if you haven't.)
Mike
Sky World

[riggerrob 643]

Apoil,
I will freely admit to being narrow-minded.
I have pulled 17 silver reserve handles and lived 17 times.
I trust silver ripcord handles and will never own a soft reserve ripcord handle.
Part of my logic includes the thick ski gloves I wear in cold weather. Over the years, my hands have suffered far too much frost bite damage for me to have a strong grip in cold weather. I doubt if I could pull a soft ripcord handle on a cold day.
As for ringed harnesses that suffer floating ripcord handles: sounds like a poor harness design to me. Maybe users have to compensate for a poor harness design with a "second best" ripcord design in the short run, but you would not find me buying that combination in the long run.

[MarkM 0]

C'mon rigger, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel

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[Jimbo 0]

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Over the years, my hands have suffered far too much frost bite damage for me to have a strong grip in cold weather.

I'm not trying to be a smartass, and I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life, this is only an observation, but maybe you should reconsider jumping in cold weather?
Help with cancer research here.

[SniperCJ 0]

Ummmm, I almost hate to bring it up but...
Unless youre jumping a SOS system (which I doubt), then youre pulling a soft handle for the cutaway.
In a spinning mal youre more likely to have a harder time gripping the cutaway handle than the reserve handle due to the forces involved. So the "hard to grip, hard to pull" argument leaks a little.
Dont get me wrong, Ive pulled silver twice. I liked the feel of the metal in my hand and the fact that you can hook it with your thumb when you pull. Nice cozy feeling.
Personal choice either way you go

[PhreeZone 20]

An alternitive to a solid metal handle and the soft pillow is a soft loop handle. It attaches the sameway as the pillow, is flexible like the pillow but still allows you to hook your thumb in it like a metal. We have them on our student rigs for both the cutaway and reserve. They allow you to fully hook your hand and grip, but stay out of the way and don't pop out of the harness like a metal handle can.
At my next repack I'm looking into having Sunpath make me a soft loop since I'd like to ditch the metal because it pops out everyonce and a while.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[SBS 0]

What it comes down to is that you need to do what you are going to feel comfortable with.
I like the point that I have seen mentioned a number of times, regarding the pillow cutaway handle. My question is that if the pillow is so dangerous, according to some, why is it that the majority of those same people will jump with a pillow cutaway handle?
I have known people to accidently pull a reserve handle, and it can not always be blamed on someone without experience, or "fumbly fingers" or whatever it was called. There are any number of situations that we get into that could pull a metal reserve handle, and that is why I choose to jump with two pillows.
As far as the "talking to" that someone mentioned, if his student were to pull his reserve handle, that would be great, assuming that everyone was still alive and unbroken. I think that's an issue that I would prefer preventing, rather than an attitude of "cross that bridge when we come to it".
I also like the option of a loop, but would have to say that I consider a pillow to be the safest all around option for freefliers in general. I'm sure some will disagree with me, but that's just my opinion. What I think is a more important consideration, though, like I said originally, is gear fear. The best option for you is what you are comfortable with.
jmho,
Steve

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I will not jump soft reserve handles. I need to be able to hook a thumb in something in case my fingers get fucked up. Unlikely to happen? If you say that then you have not been smashed in a door, kicked doing 4-way, or tangled in a CRW wrap. As for the argument about metal ripcords coming undone, that's bullshit. Seat the thing and check your velcro.
Just my 20-years of experience talking.
Chuck
My webpage HERE

[SBS 0]

Not being a smart ass, but do you jump a metal cutaway handle?
Steve

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Negative, but I am seriously considering replacing both of my handles with the fabric loops that some guys jump.
Chuck
My webpage HERE

[SBS 0]

That's reasonable.
You have a good point about your hand getting messed up, I just think that if it is that serious an issue to anyone, it would make sense that both handles would be loops/rings.
Steve

[skybytch 273]

My rigs have always had and always will have metal reserve handles. My reasons?
1) I like to be able to see where the cable is attached to the handle. Can't see that with a pillow but with a metal handle the cable and swage are always visible and can be easily inspected.
2) I haven't had to use a reserve yet (knocking on wood of course....), but I do have 12 years of practicing the hook with a thumb pull method. I don't want to change my emergency procedures now or ever; muscle memory is strong.
3) I always protect and/or watch my handles. I don't worry too much about an unexpected snag. I have had a floating reserve ripcord before; wasn't a big deal.
4) Another thing to consider is upper body strength. Pulling a pad requires a bit more strength than pulling a metal handle. The only time I ever had real good upper body strength was when I was doing tandems; today I wouldn't trust that I have enough to pull a pad.
All that said, it's really a personal choice. What do you feel comfortable with? Consider all the pros and cons or each type of ripcord and make your own decision.
pull and flare,
lisa

[SBS 0]

yeah, yeah....shut up.
Go answer the phone or something, so I don't have to.
:-p

[Jimbo 0]

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4) Another thing to consider is upper body strength. Pulling a pad requires a bit more strength than pulling a metal handle. The only time I ever had real good upper body strength was when I was doing tandems; today I wouldn't trust that I have enough to pull a pad.

Do you have a D ring for your cut away handle as well?
Help with cancer research here.

[skybytch 273]

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Do you have a D ring for your cut away handle as well?

Not at the moment... I have a pad for the cutaway on my new rig; that's all that was offered. I jump a big slow Spectre so I don't anticipate ever having a high g cutaway situation. I am looking into a loop cutaway handle.

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Go answer the phone or something, so I don't have to.

STFU and get some work done for a change. Asshole.
pull and flare,
lisa

[SBS 0]

"STFU and get some work done for a change. Asshole."
That's uncalled for! I'm going to get the chick that sits behind me to edit your post! You won't get away with this! ...wait a second...
:-p

[riggerrob 643]

skybytch made a good point: "muscle memory is strong."
After "X" hundred or "X" thousand practices, it becomes too much of a hassle trying to teach old dogs new tricks.
That is why you see POPs jumping with pull-outs or pilotchutes stowed on their leg straps.
As for my adaptation to cold weather jumping .... I moved to a milder climate: the coast of British Columbia, where it rarely gets much below freezing. I have also learned how to dress myself, and finally I only jump when I can hide behind tandem students. Tandem students are great at reducing the wind chill. Ha! Ha!