Hornet -- new or used?

[Jessica 0]

Well, as everyone probably knows from my defensiveness, my main is an F-111 PD 170.
While I adore my l'il canopy, after putting 50 jumps on it, I think I might want to experience this thing they call "penetration."
I'm considering a Hornet, because they're less expensive, though I'm open to other options.
My question: is it better to buy new, or to save a couple hundred dollars and find one that has a couple hundred jumps on it?
I'm planning on downsizing a bit with this purchase (getting down to a 1:1 loading, heh heh), and I think this'll be my canopy for a long little while, so I want to make the right decision.
Pet me! I'm harmless and cute!

[skycat 0]

Quote

I'm planning on downsizing a bit with this purchase (getting down to a 1:1 loading, heh heh), and I think this'll be my canopy for a long little while, so I want to make the right decision.

See that is what I thought, ok I have this really old 150 I know I'm going to downsize, so no big deal. After about 100 jumps yep I downsized to a 135, cool thought I would keep that for awhile...nope after about 70 jumps I went to a 116 which finally put me to a 1.1:1 wingloading....figured I'd stay there....nope after about 50 jumps I decided to go smaller....my 104 will be here last week of december / first week of January. So that will put me at a 1.3:1 wingloading, now I think I'm probably good to go, since I HATE running out landings.
Ok since I'm probably going to get yelled at by people saying I downsized to fast. I have my own personal canopy coach who critiques every landing whether I want him to or not and he gave me 2 thumbs up on this last downsize. Kelli

[mountainman 0]

Quote

Ok since I'm probably going to get yelled at by people saying I downsized to fast.

Be strong! The force is strong with you!!
-------------
http://www.JumpinDuo.com
"oh no. Not another one"-Alienangel

[TALONSKY 0]

Well I have flown a Hornet 170 and I own a Safire 169 loaded 1.42 to 1. I a personally feel that the Safire is a far supperior canopy( I also had a friend try both out and she agreed with me about the Safie). I think that you should consider the size you want than kind and see what kind of a deal you can get used. I bought my Safire off of Dropzone.com with 150 jumps on it for $550.
Blue Skies

[Jessica 0]

Quote

Ok since I'm probably going to get yelled at by people saying I downsized to fast.

Nah, no one'll yell at you.
Where do you jump?
See...at more than 60 jumps, I've only got three stand-ups. I figure I need the most canopy-help I can get.
Pet me! I'm harmless and cute!

[skycat 0]

I'm out at Skydive Houston in Waller. Come out some weekend I'll sick Derek on you, he'll have you swooping inches off the ground in no time. Actually my problem was I landed hard so many times under those oversized canopies I had some major gear fear when it came to landing. I never biffed, I just always slid my landings in and ended up on my butt. I think he recorded the line, "Your timing was fine, just put your gear down". Well after first getting my flares timing right, then changing the style so it's smoother, it was a matter of over coming the gear fear. So lets just say since I got the crossfire 116 I've improved by leaps and bounds.
Canopy - Wingloading - Stand-up average
Manta 215 - .6:1 - 1 out of 12
Saber 170 - .7:1 - 0 out of 2
Saber 150 - .8:1 - 1 in 20
Saber 135 - .9:1 - 1 in 10
Crossfire 116 - 1.1:1 - 98%(Derek started working with me from jump 1 on this canopy) it would be 100%, but I'm not letting the other weekend slide when the winds were 0 and I butt slid it in a few times.
You know I've really been wondering lately if the stereo types that girls can't land and that girls should be on larger canopies doesn't actually cause us more problems. I mean you can ask JumperPaula the DZ we grew up at was very conservative. The most experienced female jumper out there jumped a stiletto 120 and advised that you should have atleast 500 jumps before getting anything that small or fast. Well a 120 puts me at about 1:1 so why can't I have something that small when the guys with the same amount of jumps are on 170s when their exit weight is in the 190s? That was hypothetical and doesn't need to be answered. I guess now that I've been really working on flying my canopy I've noticed how the guys are always helping eachother out, saying things like "hey man you might want to try X to make it swoop farther, or do Y to make it smoother" yet with the girls they just point and laugh and make comments about dirty jumpsuits.
Ok I'm done venting.
Kelli

[Dutchboy 0]

If you don't care what color it is, I would buy the used one and save the cash. If you do care, or are looking for an uncommon size you might have to go new. I have nearly 130 jumps on my Hornet 190 with 220lbs suspended weight.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[Jessica 0]

Quote

I never biffed, I just always slid my landings in and ended up on my butt.

OMG, me too.
I actually agree with you. I think there's some major girl-predjudice out there.
Maybe I'll demo/rent something a little smaller in a ZP.
Pet me! I'm harmless and cute!

[Spectrejumper 0]

The best advice I've heard is if you can't land the canopy you've got, get something smaller.
Man, it's hard to convey sarcasm on the net.
Seriously though, there's a great article on PD's website regarding wingloading. It thoroughly explains why a light jumper flying a tiny canopy is not equivalent to a heavier jumper flying a larger main at the same wingloading.
Mike D-23312
"It's such a shame to spend your time away like this...existing." JMH

[skybytch 273]

Look at/jump some other zp canopies before you buy anything. You can find some great deals on used (and even some new) Triathlons and they are great first zp canopies - easy to pack, fly and land.
You can also find some pretty good deals on used Sabres, which also fly and land pretty easy but aren't quite as easy to pack, and imho the Tri is easier to get a stand up landing out of.
In any case, you'll love the zp flare compared to F111 pull and flare,
lisa

[Watcher 0]

Quote

Ok since I'm probably going to get yelled at by people saying I downsized to fast.

Too Fast? Alot of people i know jump 1:1 or 1.1 : 1 right after AFF. Im flying at 1.55-1.6 : 1 and i only have 160 jumps, i get good advice at the DZ from the people that have been doing it from awhile, and at first i got resistence but they see that im really current 30-40 jumps a month and something of a natural. Just showem you can do it and theyll shut their mouth.
As a side note i like the Safire too, but love my Nitron 120, best landings around.
Jonathan

[Jessica 0]

Quote

The best advice I've heard is if you can't land the canopy you've got, get something smaller.

Yeah, but a F-111 170 with 400 jumps on it didn't set me down nearly as well as an almost-new rental ZP 150 did.
Pet me! I'm harmless and cute!

[Watcher 0]

ZP better than F111. nine cell better than 7 cell, ellipitcal better than square. Heavily loaded better than lightly loaded on better performance canopies. For landings i found these to be true. If you feel safe on the canopy then continue to jump it.
Jonathan

[skycat 0]

Quote

The best advice I've heard is if you can't land the canopy you've got, get something smaller.

Well who ever said it, must have been right if you look at the stats.

----------------------------------------------
First let me say when I say landed hard I don't mean I pounded into the ground, the only landings like that where the 4 pilot chute over the noses that I had on student status. (The begining of the gear fear) I never trusted canopies to land me soft after that.
--------------------------------------------------
Actually you have no idea how many times I heard well if you had a normal wingloading on that canopy it wouldn't land you so hard. I got a 1:1 wingloading and guess what......from the very first landing there never was that, heavy feeling in my knee when I landed (I have a bad knee from several old gymnastics injuries) so I would have to sit it down to avoid spraining that knee. All I ever heard was speed is your friend, the more speed you have the more flare power you have. I was pretty much grounded if the winds were over 15 mph so as you can tell I didn't have any speed which ment not alot of flare, heck I couldn't even come close to stalling my first 2 canopies.
I spent 200 jumps hating the canopy ride, dreading it, cause I knew at the end it would be an exercise in protecting my knee from a hard landing. Then I decided to listen to the several instructors who were telling me to go down to 1:1 that once I had the flare power from the canopy I wasn't going to have any problems and could finally learn all aspects of the canopy. So I ordered a Safire 116 and well when the 116 (which happened to be a crossfire since someone messed up) arrived, guess what....great landings....damn when I flare the canopy actually flares what a concept this may be due to the fact it is elliptical though. I haven't flown anouther square since I got it. I still get the lingering gear fear every once in awhile where even though everything was done perfectly I sit down at the end.
On the other hand I've been paying my dues, doing lots of hop and pops, working on this or that, different kinds of approaches, different kinds of conditions. I no longer hate the canopy ride, I love it, I love that feeling of the ground zipping past just inches under your feet. Plus, I'm finally able to learn my canopy, becuase this is the first canopy that the front riser preasure wasn't so heavy that I could quite litterly lift myself up in the harness.
I will always think having someone as small as me under something as big as a 215 is a bad idea. I only wish I would have started skydiving 6 months later, cause then I would have learned out at Skydive Spaceland where I would have been jumping a Saber 150 on student status. I would have learned the correct skills from the start.

Quote

Seriously though, there's a great article on PD's website regarding wingloading. It thoroughly explains why a light jumper flying a tiny canopy is not equivalent to a heavier jumper flying a larger main at the same wingloading.

btw....I already knew that my little butt under a 120 with a 1:1 WL is a bit faster than a person at 190 with a 1:1.

[skycat 0]

definately demo demo demo demo demo.... :-) talk to lots of people about canopies. Do some hop and pops so you can really concentrate on how you fly and flare the canopy. That is why I originally chose the safire, I had a tendency to flare deep, and that was the canopy that reacted best to it. Definately buy used though, cause I now have almost 300 jumps and am finally going to settle down with this new canopy.

[Merrick 0]

Quote

"I a personally feel that the Safire is a far superior canopy( I also had a friend try both out and she agreed with me about the Safie)."

I took the following quote from a recent thread that might explain the very reason you formed this opinion. The thread was the one about the Safire VS Sabre2's, but since Sabre2's are basically the same as Hornets (from what I understand) I figured it would apply here too. Take it for what it's worth, I haven't had a chance to check the validity of it yet.

Quote

"Part of the reason a Safire 169 seems to go faster then a Sabre2 170 is by PD's measuring scale the Safire is really more like a 160 or even 155. Icuraus and PD use 2 different measuring techniques to get square footage. I quick search of this fourm will show you a lot on this topic. Basically a Safire is 5-10% smaller then its advertised."

Obviously if the Safire is 5-10% smaller it's going to turn crisper, have a more powerful flare, & all around fly better/faster than a larger canopy. Like I said, I don't know how much truth there is to it, but I remember reading it somewhere else before, so it can't be all wrong!
If you do want to demo some canopies, one thing to know about PISA is that they don't have any sort of demo program. They do however have a 100% money back guarantee, so if you don't like it you can return it. No, I'm not a spokesman for PISA, I've just been thinking real hard myself lately about getting a Hornet that's all.
"Pammi's Hemp/Skydiving Jewelry"

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

A Safire does not have a "powerful flare" no matter how you load it. I would always recommend that someone on a budget buy the better-flying, less-expensive Hornet as a first main. Not sure where you guys are shopping, but I am able to get them for $950 in custom colors, brand new. I have seen examples with less than 100 jumps for around $700. Check the classifieds.
Chuck
My webpage HERE

[skreamer 1]

Quote

I would always recommend that someone on a budget buy the better-flying, less-expensive Hornet as a first main.

Yep, I took Chuck's recommendation and have made about 90 jumps so far on my Hornet - I'm really happy with it. I don't care if the resale value on Hornets isn't that great, by the time I get to selling it (in about 160 jumps time) I would have gotten good use out of it and great value at under $1000 brand new.
Will

[MiataDRM 0]

YEPPY! UPS just delivered my Hornet-170 this morning! I almost bought one new from Riggs & Things (on special for $910)...but I ran across a used one on SkyKat's website. I got it for $675 w/ only 40 jumps. Pray to the skygods that it's clear this weekend so I can jump it. Oh, and I love the colors too :oP
Before looking at the Hornet, I was thinking of getting the Saber-II. I spoke w/ and emailed a few people that have had experiences w/ both...in a nutshell, the main differences (aside from the label) are the the performance using the risers while surfing turf. At my level, I didn't think the difference would be noticeable since it's lightly loaded and I don't surf...so that's a few hundered dollars that I saved that will be going to my DZ account :-P
Blue Sky & Semper Fi
Majdi

[adamsr 0]

I don't think that downsizing is too fast either, i bought a second hand hornet 190 loaded at about 1.25:1 straight after finishing my RAPS training (about 30 jumps) and out of about 50 jumps now only had 1 non-standup landing.
I actually find it easier to land than the skymaster 290 student canopies that I used whilst on RAPS.

I've had comments from lots of people about my landings and canopy control in general, saying how well i fly the conopy, including one person saying it's nice to see someone flying a fairly high performance/loaded canopy sensibly, instead of being a prat and trying to fly it too agressively too soon.

The only bad comment i've had from someone is after i'd just jumped and intentionally landed right in the middle of the accuracy circle, and in his opinion i shouldn't have been jumping a semi-ellyptical canopy with my experience level (about 55 jumps at the time.) but I didn't really value his opinion because the first thing he said when i told him the hornet was made by PISA was 'oh right, what's it a copy of then?'... the look on his face when i said 'a Sabre2, but bought out 4 years before', was absolutely classic.. he didn't really say much after that :-)

Take my opinions with a pinch of salt, because i am a low time jumper with very little experience compared to the majority of people on these forums, but i believe that wingloading is not the be-all and end-all of whether a canopy is right for a person or not, every canopy is different, and every person is different, i have no problems flying my Hornet at 1.25:1 but the next person may pile it in at the same loading... don't condem people just because of their jump numbers!!!

anyway, i'll shut up now, this post is waaaaay too long :-)