what caused this malfunction?

[Kelly 0]

IM POSTING THIS IN THIS FORUM SO IT CAN BEEN SEEN BY THE FOLKS WHO READ THIS ONE. I ALSO POSTED IT IN THE SAFETY AND TRAINING FORUM. PLEASE JUST READ THIS HERE AND RESPOND IN THE SAFTETY AND TRAINING FORUM SO THINGS DONT GET CONFUSING. thanks!!!!!
tonight a girl at the dz had the weirdest malfunction. On the ground we saw her at
around 1,000 feet, nothing landable over her head, just a pilot chute out. Her reserve
fired/or she pulled... either way she was in cypres territory. Next thing we see is her
under a good reserve around 700 feet, with her stuff trailing behind her.. from what it
looked like on the ground it seemed like it was her main, not inflated at all. it looked too
big to be her bridal/ pilot chute, but than again, ive never seen an uniflated/uncutaway
main that low before, so it just could have been her bridal and pilot chute looking huge..
so the main released from the risers at about 700 feet, she turned, and basically landed
seconds later.
shes fairly new, and doesnt own her own gear yet, so she was a bit confused too, and
worked up.
when they recovered the main and brought it in the hanger it was out of the bag, but im
not sure if somebody pulled it out.. Her pilot chute was knotted. yes, knotted, as in in a
knot. She uses a throw out, and its got the orange handle, not the hackey. The orange
handle had somehow worked its way around the pilot chute and knotted it, no bridal was
included in this knot, strictly the P.C. , and it was about halfway up the PC.
were not sure if she initiated a cutaway that didnt activate (older gear, 3 ring might
have had some 'memory' to it) right away then deployed her reserve or if she deployed
reserve, it opened and then she cutaway.
in any case, my question is: has anyone hear of a pilot chute knotting itself up? maybe a
hesitation at full arm extention that allowed the bridal to loop up?
she had a packer pack for her, but her packer distinctly recalls how she stowed the PC.
she swears she didnt do anything differently. She is completely convinced that she didnt
pack this mal.
TO me it seems packer induced, shoving the PC in by the handle, the handle pushes
between two parts of the PC.. she deploys, the pull of that tightens the knot.... but
then the hestitation scenario was brought up.
im wondering because ive never hear of anything like this, let alone actually seen it in
front of my own eyes. I dont think i would have believed it if i didnt see it, but sure
enough, that handle had somehow worked its way between the PC material and caused
it to knot up.
so have you heard of this? seen this? experienced it? what causes it? what scenario do
you think caused it?
"i can not attest to what i did, just what i remember...."
~me, after one too many

[Jimbo 0]

Simple -
* Lazy pull, the pilot chute got caught in her burble
* While caught in the burble it started dancing around, getting tangled with itself and the bridal.
* When it finally left the burble the bridal was wrapped (knotted) around the pilot chute never allowing it to inflate.
For what it's worth, the Cypres did fire, but did not cut the loop. She beat the Cypres by a second or two.
Note - the bridal was involved in this malfunction. Not sure who said it wasn't, but two riggers demonstrated the malfunction on the ground and the bridal played a pretty crucial part.

[Kelly 0]

jimbo, what i ment when i said the bridal was not involved was this : the bridal wasnt wrapped around anything . the knot was contained entirely in the PC... sure, it played a part in the knot getting there, but the knot didnt have any parts of the bridal in it..
"i can not attest to what i did, just what i remember...."
~me, after one too many

[Jimbo 0]

But the bridal _was_ wrapped around something. It was wrapped around the pilot chute, effectively choking it.
Imagine that the bridal somehow managed to get itself into a loop, the pilot chute managed to get through that loop - mostly - and the the loop closed, choking the pilot chute.
The bridal was _very_ involved.

[Kelly 0]

jimbo,
straight out of the woods, right into the hanger, there was NO bridal around the PC, just a knotted PC hanging from the bridal. sure , the PC and the bridal could have wrapped, but what im asking is would that have caused the knot to tighten up to contain only the PC? like, the bridal wraps around the PC, causing a knot... that knot tightens and moves up to the PC....?
I saw it for myself, the bridal wasnt wrapped around the PC causing a knot. the PC handle had gone between two bits of material and tightened up. Imagine taking your PC and pulling the handle thru the middle of it, knotting it. Now, imagine taking the bridal and tying it around the PC very tightly. THis second scenario wasnt what I saw tonight.
.... see why im asking? im confused as can be.
kel
"i can not attest to what i did, just what i remember...."
~me, after one too many

[Jimbo 0]

The bridal _had_ to be wrapped around the pilot chute, otherwise the pilot chute would have inflated when it came off her back.
This is how the malfunction was demonstrated to me, two different times, by two different people.
Had the bridal not knotted around the pilot chute, the pilot chute would have inflated when it came off her back. The pilot chute was still cocked when it was located on the ground.

[Kelly 0]

oh god, i dont know how to explain this any other way..
this is why im wondering how this couldnt have been Packer induced. Thinking it was packer induced i could easily see how this could have happened, but if it wasnt...
how could the bridal/PC bounce around in the burble and the PC knot itself? even IF the bridal wrapped around the PC, or maybe even the PC handle, and that caused it to loop thru the PC...
but im telling you JImbo, I saw it for myself. I held it, i examined it, with The Rigger who runs the Packing matt standing right there. The PC was knotted around itself. the bridal was hanging down connected to the Main canopy. I know that it wasnt altered, cause when i mentioned we should take a picture of it This same rigger said "that IS a good idea, but they untied the PC... we could duplicate it but that wouldnt be acurate, it wouldnt be what it originally looked like. SO i know that the bridal wasnt unwrapped before i saw it. I was so confused by this, so i was really examining it with this rigger.
it looked like the PC was looped in half, the orange handle pulled over and under and thru the hole.. then tightened. Im wondering how a burble, how Freefall, how a full arm extention could cause this.
Im not saying in any way that this was an intentional act, I simply say 'was looped in half..." to give you a visual..
but im 100% sure that the PC handle somehow got worked around the material and was looped thru. I know that there wasnt any bridal there. Im 100% sure the bridal wasnt wrapped around the PC in the end... maybe it wrapped and that caused the knot to slip up to contain only the PC, but there was NO bridal around that PC. Im more sure of that than i am that this cast on my leg is neon green... and youve seen the cast, its neon green.
so that is where my question comes from, how the hell did that PC wrap around itself? i can totally see how that would happen, pushing the PC into the pouch by the handle, while accidently pushing it between two parts of material.. flatten the pouch by your preffered method, pull the handle out, youde never realize you just routed that PC handle between two bits of material..

"i can not attest to what i did, just what i remember...."
~me, after one too many

[apoil 0]

Yes it's a common error, but to see everyone in this thread make it over and over again, post after post is annoying.
"bridle" refers to things attached to your horse or pilot chute.
"bridal" refers to things attached to your fiancé

[wildblue 7]

Quote

For what it's worth, the Cypres did fire, but did not cut the loop. She beat the Cypres by a second or two.

You mean the cypres fired, but didn't deploy the reserve, right?
Oh, and the whole knotted PC thing - I would guess that the knot got started in the bridle, and moved down the line to the PC where it finally tightened up.
My sunshine-She finer than a painted rose- Aerosmith - Sunshine

[johnny1488 1]

Quote

You mean the cypres fired, but didn't deploy the reserve, right?

It fired after the reserve had been deployed already because she was still falling through 750ft (or there abouts) and doing over 78mph or whatever. At least thats what I got from it.
Johnny

[PhreeZone 20]

Quote

For what it's worth, the Cypres did fire, but did not cut the loop

Now this is a bigger issue then the mal if this really is what happened. As you are explaining it, the CYPRES unit activated, but it did not cut the loop?
If the unit was properly installed it is virtually impossible for this to happen. The cutter is installed at the base of the loop and it should cut right through the cord, not the loop. The cutter head is moving at increadable speed and with enough force to cut steel, but yet it did not cut the loop, am I understanding that right?
Or did the Cypress activate after the reserve was released from the container, but before she slowed down? And if this is the way it happened I'm courious how the riggers determined it happened that way. There is a big difference between the two events.
A rainy day at the DZ is better then a Sunny day at work

[wildblue 7]

Easy there tough-guy! That's what I was trying to clear up too, I'm sure he meant it fired, but didn't release the reserve (just words got mixed up there somewhere) I'm guessing it did cut the loop, but the reserve was already out, so people see it as not cutting the loop, but what they mean is that it wasn't responsible for the deployment of the reserve.
k.. I think I just successfully talked in a circle.. and confused myself
My sunshine-She finer than a painted rose- Aerosmith - Sunshine

[Jimbo 0]

The Cypres activated after she manually deployed the reserve and before she slowed down.

[Aviatrr 0]

Quote

If the unit was properly installed it is virtually impossible for this to happen. The cutter is installed at the base of the loop and it should cut right through the cord, not the loop. The cutter head is moving at increadable speed and with enough force to cut steel, but yet it did not cut the loop, am I understanding that right?

Well, I'm not sure what type of rig the person was jumping, but the CYPRES cutter is NOT located at the bottom of the loop on all containers.. Many containers have the cutter attached to the inside of one of the closing flaps - meaning that if the reserve is deployed, the loop is no longer through the cutter - therefore, the cutter CAN fire and NOT cut the closing loop..
Mike

[alan 1]

Yes, Kelly, I have seen this before and it is as has already been pointed out. Lazy toss, the pc bounces in the burble, goes through a loop in the bridle, the knot tightens after it has moved out to the pc itself. The knot is in the pc. Have you ever tied a simple overhand knot and then moved it along the rope/string while it was loose and in big loops? This is what happened. Same goes for the CYPRES fire. It has already been pointed out that it is possible for it to fire right after deployment and not cut the loop. What is important here is that this person receive some additional training on emergency procedures, with an emphasis on deployment altitudes, decision altitudes, and initiation altitudes.
alan

[PhreeZone 20]

Opps... I've been so stuck on packing Dolphins and the like lately I forgot that Mirage and Racers and the like are set up different. I know how to tell the difference between a pull or a Cypres fire on a Mirage, I'm not so sure on a Javelin or a similar model.
A rainy day at the DZ is better then a Sunny day at work

[Kelly 0]

thanks for the confirmation guys.
this got me thinking so much that i sat down and attempted to recreate the mal. I found exactly what you said allan, that a sort of slip knot, for lack of a better word, could develop and cause it to happen.
Im sorta anal so i dont like not knowing everything i possibly can. this is one more piece of info to get stored away...
thanks again,
kel
"i can not attest to what i did, just what i remember...."
~me, after one too many