Hooking up for take off. Good idea? Bad idea?

[riggerrob 643]

There are only two reasons to hook-up students before take-off.
First, if there is no door on the airplane.
Secondly, if you a crammed in beside the pilot in an ancient, narrow-body Cessna.

[rustywardlow 0]

Hey Arch. Nice to hear from you and yeah it's good to be back even if I do have a bionic leg now. It's hard to put skydiving on a shelf.
Oh and thanks for backing me on this one.
And by the way the Boy Scout Motto is "Be prepared." I should know I'm an Eagle Scout except in my troop our motto was "Seem prepared."

[Arvoitus 1]

riggerrob

***What if the aircraft doesn't have seat-belts?

...................................................................................

Take your ass/money/friends to another DZ.

Do small Cessna's really have seat-belts in the States?

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[fcajump 164]

Arvoitus

******What if the aircraft doesn't have seat-belts?

...................................................................................

Take your ass/money/friends to another DZ.

Do small Cessna's really have seat-belts in the States?

Not when I started (1990), but in the last 23 years the FAA and several incidents have driven up compliance. I don't know any DZ that doesn't have belts for every jumper on every plane.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[normiss 868]

Or even better - the one's that are entirely STOKED about pulling the ripcord.
Then they just stare at your hand when you give the signal.
"I wondered why you were putting your hand there. I totally forgot!"

It's usually a bit of an overload for first timers.

[Remster 30]

Arvoitus

******What if the aircraft doesn't have seat-belts?

...................................................................................

Take your ass/money/friends to another DZ.

Do small Cessna's really have seat-belts in the States?

They had them in Canada when I jumped them by the time the 90's were done.

Remster

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Arvoitus

******What if the aircraft doesn't have seat-belts?

...................................................................................

Take your ass/money/friends to another DZ.

Do small Cessna's really have seat-belts in the States?

All the ones that I have jumped out of have had them.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Arvoitus 1]

Hmm, the regulations in my home country allow to carry up to ten skydivers without having seat-belts so none of the small cessna's even have them. For some reason I just went ahead assumed this was the case in States and elsewhere. Well I guess that teaches me to assume things about stuff.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[baronn 111]

I see this all the time and Totally agree here. Just makes sense. My pilot isn't sure and neither ami on what is actually required by the FAA. 2 separate seat belts or can 1 be used for both? I have been using just one myself and don't want to be in violation of anything that might put the pilot in jeopardy. Anyone have a clear answer here?

[mark 107]

baronn

I see this all the time and Totally agree here. Just makes sense. My pilot isn't sure and neither ami on what is actually required by the FAA. 2 separate seat belts or can 1 be used for both? I have been using just one myself and don't want to be in violation of anything that might put the pilot in jeopardy. Anyone have a clear answer here?

91.107(a)(1) and (2): each person gets his or her own belt/restraint. The restraint systems are not designed for two people to share.

Mark

[riggerrob 643]

American skydivers' attitudes towards seat-belts changed radically after the two crashes in 1992.
Over the winter of 1992 and 1993, the FAA gently leaned on USPA .. saying (behind closed doors) "You either convince skydivers to wear seat-belts ... or you will not enjoy the alternative."

In 1993, I remember a USPA Course Conductor telling instructor candidates "Both you and your simulated student must be belted in - before the airplane taxies - if you want to pass this evaluation dive."

[neandertal 0]

1) No door and no seat belts? Seat your student away from the door. You, the TI, fun jumpers and/or the cameraman at least have a parachute.
2) I am 6'4" at 245lbs and I have no problems hooking up my students beside the pilot in the venerable narrow body. Actually, after a while it became very comfortable. I have my cubicle and learned how to use it accordingly. My hook up procedure will commence before we bail out, if the aircraft is still flying straight and level, and in one piece...

Simply put, hook up your student for take off will lessen your chances of survival in a aircraft crash if:
1) You are the student and your TI is non responsive;
2) You are an injured TI and your student is non responsive;
3) Your are already hooked up to your student and the aircraft suffers catastrophic airframe failure / spin / unusual attitude at low altitude;
4) You are seating behind of the tandem pair mentioned in any option above.

No Drogue, no JUMP!!

[baronn 111]

Great. So now, if the TI is out, the folks in the back will have to get past a hooked up student attached to an unresponsive TI who also happens to be blocking the main escape route. Yeah, that sounds like a smart idea.....

[baronn 111]

If I read this correctly, the pilot is not responsible for the passengers using the belts but, only in briefing them on the use of said belts. Don't wanna nitpick here but, putting a separate belt on a student while crammed into a 182 is not always easy to do. I do it in the back but, use only the one on the front. In the event of a crash, the only time it will bear full weight would be if the plane is upside down. Not trying to diminish that scenario but, not real likely to occur. Any thoughts?

[peek 21]

baronn

If I read this correctly, the pilot is not responsible for the passengers using the belts but, only in briefing them on the use of said belts. Don't wanna nitpick here but, putting a separate belt on a student while crammed into a 182 is not always easy to do. I do it in the back but, use only the one on the front. In the event of a crash, the only time it will bear full weight would be if the plane is upside down. Not trying to diminish that scenario but, not real likely to occur. Any thoughts?

Assuming we are talking about the US, well, the FAA does not care how likely a crash is, or how difficult it is to brief your student on seatbelt usage and get them secured into it.

Every person needs to be restrained with their own restraint (seatbelt or belts), and everyone needs to be briefed on its usage.

Pilots are assuming (perhaps erroneously!) that instructors are doing this with their students.

It's such a common sense rule that I don't know why anyone has a problem with it. It can save lives if there is a crash.

[indyz 1]

peek

Assuming we are talking about the US, well, the FAA does not care how likely a crash is, or how difficult it is to brief your student on seatbelt usage and get them secured into it.

Every person needs to be restrained with their own restraint, and everyone needs to be briefed on its usage.

Pilots are assuming (perhaps erroneously!) that instructors are doing this with their students.

It's such a common sense rule that I don't know why anyone has a problem with it. It can save lives if there is a crash.

Too many TIs, the examiners who train them, and the DZOs who employ then are ignorant of a major part of FAR 105.45: "(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation using a tandem parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a tandem parachute system, unless... (2) The person acting as parachutist in command... (i) Has briefed the passenger parachutist before boarding the aircraft. The briefing must include the procedures to be used in case of an emergency with the aircraft or after exiting the aircraft, while preparing to exit and exiting the aircraft, freefall, operating the parachute after freefall, landing approach, and landing."

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I've been at it for 32 years as well and I've done a lot more than 2000 tandems and I'm going to disagree with you, Rusty. On "straddle bench" aircraft I am ALWAYS going to connect the lowers for takeoff and I am also going to have the uppers connected anytime after that when the door is open (like when hop and pops get out or when it's hot as hell out). Having the lowers connected makes it MUCH easier for me to quickly( and safely) exit the aircraft in an emergency situation. It also DOES keep my passenger from "getting away from me" and actually gives them an enhanced "sense of security", particularly when I'm near the door. If you don't believe it, then you should ask your students/passengers The only time I do this on "side bench" aircraft (like most Otters) is when I'm stuck first out on the floor. There's no way to do it when you are sitting beside your student.

Ultimately, I'll take that "more ready to exit" configuration over the "possibly safer in an airplane crash" configuration every single time. It just makes WAY more sense in my opinion and it's SOP at the three "straddle bench" DZ's I've worked at in at least the past five years.

Thanks for creating a good debate thread! It's refreshing to hear other points of view.

Chuck Blue, D-12501
AFF/TM/SL-I, PRO, etc,

[SLIPPYBLUEKNOBE 0]

But how many airplane crashes have you been in during your 32 year tenure?

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I have never been in a "ball the airplane up" wreck, but I've been forced to emergency land (both on and off field) when we were too low to jump, but never with a tandem. I've done one emergency exit with a tandem and managed to get totally hooked up prior to getting out at five grand.

I doubt very seriously that it's going change the odds of being critically injured one way or another whether or not you have individual seatbelts or are strapped to your instructor by the lowers in the event of a SERIOUS airplane crash. Maybe someone has the time to put together the stats from the various crashes we've endured in the time that tandems have been jumping.

Chuck

[SLIPPYBLUEKNOBE 0]

I think that the odds are in our favor, but I also believe that the correct answer is to have a seatbelt for each person. Although I have done about 800 tandems in New Zealand, non of which had even one seatbelt in the plane.
Sometimes my briefing includes, " I have your harness connected to the parachute and my harness is seat-belted to the airplane so if we crash on take off please disconnect my seat belt and drag my body out of the fire, and I will try to do the same for you."

[Tetrahedron 13]

SLIPPYBLUEKNOBE

I think that the odds are in our favor, but I also believe that the correct answer is to have a seatbelt for each person. Although I have done about 800 tandems in New Zealand, non of which had even one seatbelt in the plane.
Sometimes my briefing includes, " I have your harness connected to the parachute and my harness is seat-belted to the airplane so if we crash on take off please disconnect my seat belt and drag my body out of the fire, and I will try to do the same for you."

That sounds completely irresponsible.
What if they can't drag your lifeless body out of the plane?
They get to burn with your remains?

That's the whole point of this thread.
Each person should have their own seatbelt and you should NOT connect the passenger harness to the parachute until you are at a safe jump attitude.

Sure, the chances of surviving a plane crash are slim, but why deny your passenger that slim chance of survival?

[SLIPPYBLUEKNOBE 0]

Quote

That sounds completely irresponsible.
What if they can't drag your lifeless body out of the plane?
They get to burn with your remains?

That's the whole point of this thread.
Each person should have their own seatbelt and you should NOT connect the passenger harness to the parachute until you are at a safe jump attitude.

Sure, the chances of surviving a plane crash are slim, but why deny your passenger that slim chance of survival?

Isn't it more responsible to give them the info?

[DougH 270]

SLIPPYBLUEKNOBE

Isn't it more responsible to give them the info?

No? Isn't it more responsible to not put them in the possible situation of having to drag your dead body out of the plane in a crash? If the door is closed, and there are proper amount of seat belts, then isn't it more responsible to leave them unhooked until at a jump altitude, or at least until after takeoff when the greatest chance of engine failure has passed.

You are on straddle benches, how hard is it to hook two upper connectors or more in an emergency that is high enough to jump?

I guess all of this is a moot point for my 182 jumping ass! I don't have straddle benches, and we all get our own seat belts.

I show my students how to remove the seat belt, and explain to them that in an emergency I will try to help them from the plane if I am able but if I can not undo their seat belt they should do so themselves. I also sometimes, but not always, ask them to kindly undo my belt and drag me from the plane if they can.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[riggerrob 643]

How about hooking a student's side-strap to a cargo ring?

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

How is unhooking oneself from your TM more difficult than undoing a seatbelt?