Why I don't jump without a CYPRES

[SkySlut 0]

Thats pretty much what she did...but would you ever expect something like that happening??? Point being, shite happens, you cant predict everything...
"I'll jump anything!"

[MarkM 0]

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Thats pretty much what she did...but would you ever expect something like that happening???

Heh, funny you should mention that...
My protocol is:
Left arm screwed up: first attempt to deploy main via my BOC, two attempts, then go silver.
Right arm screwed up: Go directly for silver.
Both arms screwed up: Say "alright guys you were right, I should've bought a Cypres" over and over until impact.

[billvon 3,085]

>Read my earlier post. I said it obviously depends on the quality of gear maintained by the DZ.
well-maintained borrowed gear kills, too. it's not that the gear doesn't work. it's that you've put 20, 100, 1000 jumps on one set of gear, and in an emergency, you may reach for your reserve handle - and find the harness ring instead, because the borrowed rig is sized differently.
>Our DZ maintains good gear. I'm jumping it right now since I don't have a rig.
>You saying I should just stop jumping?
not at all. whether you jump or not is up to you. however, i think it's a bad tradeoff in terms of safety. it is safer to jump familiar gear with no cypres than jump unfamiliar gear with a cypres.
-bill von

[SpeedRacer 1]

Yeah, I think I'm more inclined to agree with Bill here. Generally.
Speed Racer
"Blue Skies, Red eyes, Sore thighs!"

[Zennie 0]

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it's that you've put 20, 100, 1000 jumps on one set of gear, and in an emergency, you may reach for your reserve handle - and find the harness ring instead, because the borrowed rig is sized differently

Well, under that logic a person should never change from the setup that they've jumped with from Day 1. I'm going from my rental Javelin to a Vector III. Are you saying I should forever stay with Javelins because I know where the handles are? I think we both know the answer to that.
An example of where your argument is legit is in the other Jan Davis' case. She decided to do a BASE jump on borrowed gear. Problem is, her gear used a BOC whereas the borrowed gear used an ROL. Bet we both know where her hand went at pull time. That's a little different from a Javelin vs Vector which both use BOC and both have dual handle cutaway (right-red pillow)/reserve (left-silver) systems. The difference is *much* more subtle, if recognizable at all.
Besides, if I go back to rental gear... again like I said previously, I'll pull high to get used to it again and deal with any emergencies that might arise. I don't think the handle configurations are all that different between a Javelin and a Vector, and besides, that's why you're taught to look and reach, not just reach.
So, I guess I'll have to respecfully agree to disagree with you on this. I'll feel much safer on a Javelin with a Cypres than a Vector without a Cypres. But if I felt that the handles were so differently placed that I might get confused in an emergency, I guess I'd just take a 4-6 week hiatus from skydiving.
Is that a dead horse I smell?
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Blue Skies!
Zennie

[Zennie 0]

As you can tell I tend toward verbosity so here goes...
In re-reading your post I get the sense that you were driving at sizing differences rather than the containers themselves. Fair enough.
But, in talking with some friends who've had some scary cutaways, the one thing they noticed was that the handles weren't where they were expecting them. And this was on their own gear. The harness shifted on them after opening, so the handles were way higher than when they practiced the sequence on the ground.
This kind of gets at my point. The important thing is to look before reaching. I'm going to do that on my own gear as well as rental gear.
Why do I continue to let myself get dragged into these Cypres debates?
Oh, BTW, I detach the RSL before I jump...
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Blue Skies!
Zennie

[MarkM 0]

Would also have to side with Bill on the gear issue.
Everything on your own gear will fit better and you're more likely to know when something is off by the "feel".
I saw an instructor in a bad wrap with a student because he wasn't familiar with the gear he was jumping. The student cut away just after his and the instructor's main got entangled. The instructor never got out of the student's main(he was enveloped by it) and barely managed to get his (thankfully a round) reserve out at around 900 AGL.
That was caused by a loose BOC pouch, which wasn't a problem for the origional owner of the rig because he had adjusted his packing habits to deal with the issue.

[Zennie 0]

Just like everything else, it all depends on the circumstances. I'd feel perfectly fine jumping my DZ's present gear because I've jumped and packed it a lot.
Now, I'm going to have a Cypres that won't need the check for another 4 years. How familiar will I be with the equipment around then? I dunno. Depends on what I'm jumping and what the DZ is renting out. Of course, four years down the road I may change my view of never jumping without a Cypres. I doubt it, but you never know.
What it really boils down to is jumping with what you're comfortable and familiar with. If you're busy worrying about how different your equipment is, that's probably not the best frame of mind to be doing "normal" jumping. There are people who don't like wearing a Cypres. Those people I would think are more dangerous with one than without one.
If you are jumping unfamiliar gear, whether because your gear is out for maintenence, because you're demoing new stuff or because you just bought new equipment, I think a couple of very conservative "familiarization" jumps would be wise.
I know I'll be pulling high the first few times I jump my new rig.
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Blue Skies!
Zennie

[Iflyme 0]

I fly solo, sometimes in a sit... I don't have a cypres. I'd like to have one, but after spending 2 grand on gear, and another $1800 on J/Ts, I can't afford one. I don't agree with DZ's making them mandatory. I do agree with helmet legislation - for motorcycles AND bicycles. And you would never catch me on a motor bike. Too much at risk from other drivers, and no protection in the event of an accident. And I know this debate will NEVER end, but I do like hearing the differing perspectives.
Frank

[billvon 3,085]

>Well, under that logic a person should never change from
>the setup that they've jumped with from Day 1.
that's not really practical. but you are correct in that, when you change gear, you are at risk until you get used to the new gear. drilling often on the new gear can reduce that time.
>I'm going from my rental Javelin to a Vector III. Are you
> saying I should forever stay with Javelins because I know
> where the handles are? I think we both know the answer to
> that.
again, no. but if you are transitioning to a completely new system (i.e. SOS to two-handle, throwout to pullout, BOC to ROL) then that's a big change, and you have to be really careful to untrain and then retrain yourself. if it's identical except for size, you have a lot less to do - mainly just making sure you can find the handles. but it is an additional load on your attention that you have to account for.
> That's a little different from a Javelin vs Vector which
> both use BOC and both have dual handle cutaway (right-red
> pillow)/reserve (left-silver) systems. The difference is
> *much* more subtle, if recognizable at all.
agreed. but even something as minor as where the friction adapter is on the chest strap (racer is different than everyone else, for example) or how tight the legstraps have to be can make a difference in how you gear check yourself, how the rig moves on you in freefall, and (more importantly) where the handles swim to during a normal pull, a total and a lowspeed mal.
i'm not advocating that you never do this. i just think that borrowed gear is a fairly big risk, but jumping sans cypres is a small risk. it's like talking to someone who weighs 240 lbs and wants a triathalon 220 to be safe, but gets a PD143 reserve because it fits in his container better with the big main. it is definitely true that the tri-220 will keep him safer, but i would not consider that tradeoff a good one.
-bill von

[Jessica 0]

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ok, fair enough. question - would you be willing to do a hop and pop without a cypres? no one else in the sky, no RW or freeflying planned?

A hop and pop is the only time I've ever been in a situation where I might have NEEDED a cypres.

[slotperfect 7]

Back in the day, I was anti-AAD. They weren't reliable enough for me (I have experienced two high-fires with a non-CYPRES AAD). Then along came the CYPRES. I attended the PIA Symposium in '93 and listened to Helmut Cloth from Airtec explain how he went about designing the CYPRES. Brilliant! I also witnessed an actual CYPRES save that year, which further influenced my opinion.
Yes, using an AAD or not should be a personal decision. There are people like wildblue that are still anti-AAD. There are more that are anti-RSL, pro-SOS, etc. etc. I respect each of those opinions even though I disagree with each one. Wildblue should be applauded for not trying to brow beat us with his opinion!
If you are pro-AAD, and someone asks you whether or not they should use one, I suggest that you recommend they do. If they choose not to, respect their choice and welcome them on your load with open arms. Using the motorcyclist analogy, I won't turn away a friend from a BBQ at my house because he doesn't wear a helmet. I would even let members of my family ride with him (but they would be wearing one!)
Food for thought: Relative Workshop and Strong both made AADs mandatory on their Tandem Rigs. Buzz Fink at Air Adventures in Otay Lake, CA makes CYPRES AADs mandatory at his DZ. Why not email these folks and ask them why?
Respectfully,
SP

[Aviatrr 0]

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Food for thought: Relative Workshop and Strong both made AADs mandatory on their Tandem Rigs.

This is a completely different situation.. On a Tandem, you have somebody that probably has zero knowledge of skydiving.. Of course, the instructor is fairly experienced, but the students receive....what, 15 minutes of training? Any gear training? Sometimes.. The Tandem rig manufacturers made AAD's mandatory to protect the passengers, not the instructors..
I believe that making AAD's mandatory on Tandem rigs and student rigs is a good thing.. Since the passengers on a Tandem often have no skydiving knowledge, how likely are they(even if properly trained on the issue) to pull proper handles if the TM is knocked out on exit or loses altitude awareness? With students.....well, you just never know how they may react.. If a student on an AFF 1 dive somehow gets away from both JM's(unlikely, I admit), and starts to spin bad enough that the JM's can't get back in there, do you think they are going to pull? Hopefully the training kicks in, but you never know how somebody will react in a stressfull situation.. At least with a Cypres, that student will likely survive and decide that skydiving is not for them..
I know there are some that say even students should not depends on an AAD.. Well, I would rather see somebody saved by an AAD and decide not to take up skydiving, than go in because they "shouldn't be device dependent"..
Personally, I have a Cypres in my rig.. Will I jump if my Cypres is out for a 4 year? Definitely.. Do I prefer to have one? Yep - otherwise I wouldn't have spent the money on it.. I think about the Cypres every jump.. I can't forget about it like some do.. I think about what I need to do in certain situations - such as an emergency exit at 1500ft - in order to prevent a two-out situation.. Do I rely on it? No way.. But I adjust my emergency procedures accordingly..
Mike

[Head 0]

I, too, refuse to jump without a Cypres. A perfect example is the jumper in my area who recently had a Cypres save after both arms were dislocated by another jumper in freefall. And I understand the point of choosing who you jump with. However, even the best jumpers can make mistakes. What about the woman that was hit on the record attempt a couple of years ago? Surely the jumpers on that attempt had enough experience to avoid a collision. But like I said, even the best jumpers can make mistakes. No attacks here, just stating my case! And anyway, my husband, father and I have an extra rig that we all jump and are familiar with whenever we need it...it too is Cypres equipped!

[wildblue 7]

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Yes, using an AAD or not should be a personal decision. There are people like wildblue that are still anti-AAD. There are more that are anti-RSL, pro-SOS, etc. etc. I respect each of those opinions even though I disagree with each one. Wildblue should be applauded for not trying to brow beat us with his opinion!

Whoa.. back up. I never said I was "anti-AAD" ... sorry if I gave that impression. Unless I start seeing fatalities attributed to a CYPRES aad, I will always be for them. My rig has a Cypres, and I just ordered a new rig with a Cypres. I think AADs are fantastic, I just think people rely on them too much. The statement "I won't jump without one" I just can't comprehend.
But again, it's all a personal decision. Do your research, make the calculations.. it's your life.
RSL - there's a whole other debate we probably shouldn't start. But you're right, it's just like deciding to jump with an aad or not. I looked at all side, and decided I didn't want an RSL. Your opinion may differ, and that's fine, as long as you looked at all sides and did your research, I will respect you choice.

[mountainman 0]

Do you want to know why you shouldn't jump without your Cypress? Check out Zennie's webpage http://here and click on the Cyprus opening movie in the skydiving section. Remember, this could happen to ANYONE!!!
cielos azules
Brandon and Laura
http://home.woh.rr.com/brandonandlaura/
a work in progress

[Zennie 0]

Link got messed up there. The direct link to the movie is here.
I think that movie is actually a double-save cuz I sure don't see the first guy going for anything.
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Blue Skies!
Zennie
Edited by Zennie on 4/12/01 12:22 PM.

[wildblue 7]

Actually, I see that as a reason to not lose altitude awareness... not as a reason to never jump without a Cypres.
I wonder how many people who don't have an aad just lose altitude awareness and burn in.

[Zennie 0]

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I wonder how many people who don't have an aad just lose altitude awareness and burn in.

I would think "lots", but I don't remember seeing anything like that in the incident reports. Bet they're glad they both had a Cypres though.
I think the new big danger is going to be people getting overly-reliant on their audibles. I know there have been times when I haven't heard mine (but I wear mine inside a noisy Protec -- might have to duct tape those vents). I could see a people burning in because they didn't hear their audible and just kept going.
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Blue Skies!
Zennie

[MarkM 0]

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I could see a people burning in because they didn't hear their audible and just kept going.

Yeah. I don't even fully trust my visual alt. On the ride up I try to get a good eyeball view of what 4k looks like.

[SpeedRacer 1]

I think what people need to remember is the concept of "BACKUP" safety devices... It's not a backup if you ignore the things that come before it. For example, I just bought an audible altimeter & I plan on using it as a backup safety device to my wrist altimeter. And the AAD is a backup to all of that. When people just rely on the backup device first (for example, not bothering w/altitude awareness & just using the audible), you lose the safety benefits of having backup devices.
Speed Racer
"Blue Skies, Red eyes, Sore thighs!"

[Aviatrr 0]

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I think the new big danger is going to be people getting overly-reliant on their audibles. I know there have been times when I haven't heard mine (but I wear mine inside a noisy Protec -- might have to duct tape those vents). I could see a people burning in because they didn't hear their audible and just kept going.

Unfortunately, some people don't use the two altimeters that they can never forget to carry - their eyes.. If you ever go very far below your 'normal' opening altitude, and you actually LOOK at the ground, you will likely notice you are low.. The eyes are your primary instruments.. Altimeter is secondary.. Audibles are a distant third.. I had an altimeter fail on a dive not long ago.. I check it around 9k, then again probably 10 seconds later, and I was still at 9k.. I was solo head-down, and continued my dive as if nothing were wrong.. When the ground looked about right, I went belly to earth, slowed down, waved off, and pulled.. Had about a 3 minute canopy ride - which is normal for my pull altitudes and canopy flying.. It's not very har

[Aviatrr 0]

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I think the new big danger is going to be people getting overly-reliant on their audibles. I know there have been times when I haven't heard mine (but I wear mine inside a noisy Protec -- might have to duct tape those vents). I could see a people burning in because they didn't hear their audible and just kept going.

Unfortunately, some people don't use the two altimeters that they can never forget to carry - their eyes.. If you ever go very far below your 'normal' opening altitude, and you actually LOOK at the ground, you will likely notice you are low.. The eyes are your primary instruments.. Altimeter is secondary.. Audibles are a distant third.. I had an altimeter fail on a dive not long ago.. I check it around 9k, then again probably 10 seconds later, and I was still at 9k.. I was solo head-down, and continued my dive as if nothing were wrong.. When the ground looked about right, I went belly to earth, slowed down, waved off, and pulled.. Had about a 3 minute canopy ride - which is normal for my pull altitudes and canopy flying.. It's not very hard if you pay attention..
If I ever have a Cypres 'save' because I lost altitude awareness, I will hang up my rig.. I normally jump with a Cypres, but would not hesitate to jump without it if it is out for some reason, or I am jumping somebody else's rig without one..
It CAN happen to anybody - like the 4 way team, at Nationals last year, that all had Cypres fires during a practice round.. None of them pulled anything - they were supposedly still turning points when their Cypres' fired.. Video guy pulled shortly before that, and ended up with 2 out.. 4 saves and one 2 out all at once.. Complacency kills..
Mike

[Albatross 0]

O.K. I am a newcomer to the sport 50 jumps. I just bought a rig that has a cypress and a RSL. Now we can all debate the RSL I know that I am but the cypress I am glad to have. I think of it and treat it like an airbag in a car. I don't count on it. I know that it can hurt me in the wrong circumstance. I always use other protection so i will not need it but it does help me feel better that it is there if I evere need it. I know that shit happens in life. Hell I had a friend of mine pass out getting off the can. Nothing was wrong with him just the perfect combination of a hundred little events that together caused the fainting. What if that type of shit happened in freefall? It is nice to have something that will be there to TRY and help you.
Blue Skys and Safe Landings
Albatross

[billvon 3,085]

>I think the new big danger is going to be people getting overly-reliant on their audibles. I know
> there have been times when I haven't heard mine (but I wear mine inside a noisy Protec --
> might have to duct tape those vents). I could see a people burning in because they didn't hear their
> audible and just kept going.
this is a danger both with audibles _and_ AAD's. in years past you had to check your altitude pretty frequently (or at least always be sure what altitude you're at) or you would die. this had two effects - one, it was a strong incentive to remain altitude aware, and two, it provided a sort of darwinistic removal of the jumpers who could not remain altitude aware. (sick, i know, but that's the way it was.)
nowadays we have neither issue. skydive until you hear the beeps, and if you don't, well, your cypres will save you. most jumpers don't think about it in those terms, but when you look at how they skydive, that's exactly what they do. i've even heard freefly coaches tell their students not to look down, since it messes up their head-down.
which jumpers are at risk for this dependency? hard to tell, although some (like the coach above) are pretty obvious. one test that i have is to ask someone to jump without a cypres, just one jump, whatever type they feel most comfortable doing. if they refuse, there's a good chance they are relying on their cypres more than they admit.
-bill von