strop45 0 #126 October 10, 2009 QuoteI never said my personal opinion. I base my opinion.... So is it or is it NOT your opinion?? Make your mind up. Having more or less experience doesn't alter the fact that its your opinion?? Also having more experience doesn't always make you right. I've had much more experienced skydivers expose the 45 degree rule...The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #127 October 11, 2009 QuotePost: So I guess this conversation is over. It's hard to discuss something if people just continue to shout the same thing over and over. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the lack of responses is because your opinion is right either. Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing. Not one person has discussed the *issues* I raised. Instead they just keep yelling how they are right. The best most have been able to bring is an emotional response and avoidance of a resonable discussion of the issues."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #128 October 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteMy canopy skills, spotting, packingCrazy, etc. were just as good as someone who had 15 jumps and started with AFF. You compared your abilities with a similar AFF student at that time? You held spotting/packing/canopy control competitions? Also, a single data point does not make a data set. So where is your data set that proves AFF trained skydivers have a worse accident record than SL/IAD?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #129 October 12, 2009 We've tried to discuss the issues you raised. You've chosen not to listen. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #130 October 12, 2009 Quote Quote Quote My canopy skills, spotting, packingCrazy, etc. were just as good as someone who had 15 jumps and started with AFF. You compared your abilities with a similar AFF student at that time? You held spotting/packing/canopy control competitions? Also, a single data point does not make a data set. So where is your data set that proves AFF trained skydivers have a worse accident record than SL/IAD? I'm still waiting on that "data" too, Prof. Don't get your hopes up. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #131 October 12, 2009 You guys may be waiting a couple more day's. Ron should be at national's right now. Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #132 October 12, 2009 Quote You guys may be waiting a couple more day's. Ron should be at national's right now. It's nasty down there. They've got nothing better to do but postwhore till the weather clears."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #133 October 12, 2009 Quote Quote You guys may be waiting a couple more day's. Ron should be at national's right now. It's nasty down there. They've got nothing better to do but postwhore till the weather clears. I figured it was. Im in dallas and it suck's. Knowing the team Ron is on I bet there doing nothing but kreepingNothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #134 October 14, 2009 Saying over and over, "I like it better" is not a discussion."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #135 October 14, 2009 I give up. Good luck at Nationals. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #136 October 15, 2009 you never had a discussion with ron before, did you?The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #137 October 15, 2009 Quoteyou never had a discussion with ron before, did you? No, and I apparently still haven't. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #138 October 15, 2009 >>NickDG i think you are a abject failure.....thanks for your rambling about the good ole days and your nice little trip down memory lane. Your commitment to holding on to the past is admirable but futile.I haven't looked into this thread since I OP'ed . . . And boy, you guys kinda drove it right off the rails. But I'm replying to the post I found the most annoying. hallux, unitil you out live me - my time is your time. And you'll realize, when you get closer to the end than the beginning, your point of view becomes more valid not less so. If that isn't the case, we are all in a lot of trouble . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dks13827 3 #139 October 16, 2009 I learned in the 70's on S/L. I never messed up until jump 15 ( 20 second delay ) when I tumbled, got stuck on my back, then pulled !! Scary !! I remember thinking afterwards that having an instructor do a harness hold for a few jumps to terminal would have been really great ( that was not an accepted practice, however, it was not done. ) If my daughter wanted to become a jumper, I would suggest 2 tandems, 5 S/L or IAD jumps, then some AFF jumps. IMO, the best of both worlds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #140 October 16, 2009 QuoteSaying over and over, "I like it better" is not a discussion. Ron, you have a lot of valuable experience, knowledge and opinions to contribute. But your apparent need to always get in the last word in any skydiving discussion makes a lot of people, including people pretty knowledgeable in their own right, feel that having a discussion with you is more trouble than it's worth. Not saying you have to care; just saying it's the case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #141 November 10, 2009 I've seen the AFF students who rode a plane back down because they were too scared to go out the door at 3500 and I've seen students struggle through S/L that would have almost certainly done better on AFF. I've also had the opportunity to experience three different instructional courses, one before the ISP and Coach programs were in use in this region, one during the years when the transition was occurring and one this past summer on the new format. I've also had the opportunity to look at them critically as I've finished up my Master's in leadership and prepared to move into a phd program in leadership and education. Based off all that, I think that Nick is both right and wrong. What Nick attributes to AFF is far less about the instructional method and far more about the instructors. Times have changed and perhaps even more important the generations have changed. While I understand Nick's fustration I also understand that the genie can't be put back in the bottle. So rather than debating why a method has been a success or failure, why are we not asking ourselves, "how have the times and people changed, and how do we as instructors tailor our materials and presentation to remain relevant?" -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
