Mals

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Good advice indeed - actually pretty much required advice.
Though what I am trying to get across with the statement was for those of us who have not experienced one - it's dread of the 'unknown' - much like a first jump, but in a slightly different sense. Most first time jumpers are afraid because they don't know what to expect, don't know how they will react, and most important don't know if they will in fact, be ok when they leave the plane. I assume most low time jumpers think similarly of the first serious mal, I mean we are trained for it, review mentally and physically for it, but all the preparation in the world is no substitute for the experience of reality.
Thus what I meant by 'getting it out of the way' - a few jumpers I have known seemed to feel more comfortable with the first mal happening earlier in thier career than those who had it happen later (later vs earlier borderline being, let's say, 500 jumps) - they know early on what to expect and know they can deal with it (else they wouldn't be alive).

[billvon 3,123]

>most of these partials were self induced, ie: body positioning, improper packing
>teqniques, etc..i consider line twists partials . . .
Aha. Most people consider a mal as something you have to cut away from. Generally, a partial mal is something like a lineover, where you have part of a canopy out, but still must cut away. Line twist may well be a partial mal, but only if it's so bad you have to chop it (not unusual on small ellipticals.)
-bill von

[rgoper 0]

to alleviate my "angst" and anticipation of my first "total mal" i'm going to rent a "intentional cut-away" rig, bail at 5k, chop and deploy main. i think for those who have not had a reserve ride, it's the initial fear of losing that security feeling of being under canopy, although it may not be flying right. a lot of time can be utilized while under a mal, assessing the situation, and i have seen a few jumpers stay with mals too long. i've seen two line overs, both spinning, and the jumpers stayed with them until a reported 1000-900, that's too low, although 300' should be sufficient for a reserve to properly inflate, if not less, but who knows? that's half the fun of this sport for me! and as i previously stated, i consider line twist a "partial mal" i guess you could call it what you want, but IMO if it's not "textbook" and you have complications, but, you are able to "clear the problem" it's a partial mal. my buckles slipping on my Javelin J-4 container is to blame for most of this, it's going in on monday, back to sunpath to change them out, the current ones are stainless steel, look good, slip bad! i'm never aprehensive at deployment time, because i know what i will do if things don't go as planned, not a doubt in my mind, if there was, i wouldn't ride to altitude! i'm more worried about long spots!
Blue Skies, Hot Days, Safe Landings:
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[DickMcMahon 0]

My first was on JUMP-6 ... a line-over. If you're interested
you can read about it by clicking the link below.
http://www.dickmcmahon.com

[Michele 1]

As if I know what I'm talking about....
Richard said

Quote

to alleviate my "angst" and anticipation of my first "total mal" i'm going to rent a "intentional cut-away" rig, bail at 5k, chop and deploy main.

Not to quibble. Like I said, as if I know what I'm talking about.....and they do have intentional cutaway rigs for a reason....
But for me, it wasn't the actual cutaway which scared me. It was being able to deal with the stress of identifying a problem (took a little while for me to figure out what was going on), the initial wtf is going on??? and then controlling the thought process under severe stress, under a spinning mal, which was the most amazing thing. And I think that the mechanics of cutaway are actually sort of simple; it's the feelings, the sensations, the mental aspect of it which is complicated.
And if you know you're going to cutaway, you will not have this serious complication. An intentional cutaway does not simulate an actual cutaway, in my humble opinion.....
Just my .02, though. Do what's best for you, always.
Ciels-
Michele
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~

[rgoper 0]

michelle:
i kept up with your progression here on this site, but for me, it's not whether or not there's a question in my mind what i'm going to do, i just want to know ahead of time what it feels like to drop from one canopy to another. you were lucky, yours happned early. for me, it sticks in my mind so much that it's starting to become a problem, but on the other hand, maybe it;s a good thing, i'd hate to think i'd become complacent after a mal, or cut away of any sort. a master rigger/dive master friend of mine has this cut away rig, and he rents it out, it actually looks like fun. when he cuts away, he'll deploy his main, then catch the cut-away canopy on his foot and bring it down with him. not me, i'll look for it later, as i don't have 3000+ jumps!
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[RemiAndKaren 0]

Richard.
If we talk about technical issues, lets agree on the terms that are standard in our sport. A streamer is not a total. As Geoff explained, a total is when NOTHING comes out of your container. This is not our interpretation of terms, its the meaning of the word in skydiving.
Maybe you're getting confused with high sped and low speeds mals: a streamer being fairly high speed, and line overs/twists being low speed.
We have a pretty technical sport, so lets make sure we are all talking about the same thing.

Quote

a "streamer" is a total mal, with something out, "lineovers" can (and generally are) be totals with something out, food for thought. when you deploy, and your not square, steerable and stable, or you dont feel that "in the saddle" feeling, look up, you may have a streamer, i've seen them, there fugly. i may add that streamers are generally "high speed mals", and need to be dealt with accordingly.

Remi
Muff 914

[rgoper 0]

my reference to a "total malfunction" is translated as follows: true, nothing out is a "total mal" BUT also if you have anything out, and it is not working properly, is that not a "total mal" as well? streamer or no streamer, it's a total malfunction of the parachute system, regardless of what your dragging on top of your self, call it how you want! and there are two kinds of mals, slow and high speed, i've experienced both, i prefer the slow mal, you don't have to think as quick. i had a pilot chute in tow once...no fun...at all. there's really no reason to debate mine and your termonologys for mals, they are what they are.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[RemiAndKaren 0]

OK Richard, good luck on your mission to re-name accecpted standards in the sport.....
Remi
Muff 914

[rgoper 0]

let's see, you are the one who didn't know what a "partial mal" was...........right? so now all of the sudden your an expert? as i said, there's no reason to get into a squabble over this, you want to call it by the "industry standard" it makes me no difference, trust me. by the way, if you ever have a streamer, and i hope you don't, you tell me if it was a partial, or a total malfunction of the parachuting system.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[indyz 1]

For the technical definitions of the different malfunction types, I would take a look at the SIM, starting on page 101. The current SIM is downloadable from the USPA website if you don't have a hard copy version.
--
Brian

[DanG 1]

Whoa, calm down. I think the reason Remi is trying to correct you (whether you like it or not, you are mistaken on your terminology) is that some people teach different techniques for dealing with the two main classes of malfunctions: partial and total. Some people (including the USPA Integrated Student Program) teach that the proper resonse to a total malfunction (nothing out except maybe the PC) is to go straight to the reserve ripcord. They believe you shouldn't waste time cutting away. For a partial malfunction (you have something out, but it isn't working) the proper response is the pull the cutaway handle, then the reserve ripcord handle.
Whether or not this method of dealing with totals is correct is the subject of another thread.
It is important to make a proper distinction between partial and total malfuntions because the responses people may have been taught are different. We have standard terminology so that people across the sport can all communicate without confusion. I'm sorry, but a streamer is, by definition, a partial malfunction, no matter how scary and dangerous it may be. So is a line-over, unrecoverable line twists, and even a broken riser.
- Dan G

[Geoff 0]

The official USPA definitions from the 2001 SIM:
Total Malfunction:
"A total malfunction includes deployment handle problems (unable to locate or extract the main parachute deployment handle), pack closure, and a pilot chute in tow."
Partial Malfunction:
"A partial malfunction is characterized by deployment (removal from the container) or partial deployment of the main parachute and includes, horseshoe (container open), bag lock, streamer, lineover, line pressure knots, major (unlandable) canopy damage, and other open-canopy malfunctions."
Personally, I was taught that a PC in tow was a partial (makes sense to me - the system has 'partially' deployed), but maybe that's the difference between USPA and BPA definitions.
Geoff

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Small ellipticals aren't the only ones. I somehow managed to my 1.3 loaded Safire to line twist and throw me for a few spins yesterday - looked up, saw twists, looked further - to the left side of the canopy was blue, to the right was green/brown, and I was going for a wild ride. Popped the RSL, leaned as far out of the turn as possible, grabbed the risers to pull apart and cursed and swore at the thing like a sailor, it then planed out (I guess it gave up on it's vision of one day being recycled into a PD Stilletto).
That little event was preceeded by a d-bag hesitation on a previous jump (I guess the canopy was a bit shy and didn't want to come out of the bag so quickly), and followed by a hard pull on a subsequent jump - quite the entertaining weekend.
How about you folk?

[rgoper 0]

it is true that the sky diver's manuel says a "streamer" is a "partial" mal, but it also lists that for it to be a "partial" mal, there have to be several other extunuating circumstances, i've just finished reading it again for the hundreth time. in my humble opinion, if it's ok with you guys, i will continue to refer to a streamer as a "total" mal, ok? how can it be a "partial" if you have to "un-j" it? good move getting the RSL undone prior to your thinking you were going to have to cut-away, and deploy reserve! that's been the subject of contraversy as well. everyone was saying you couldn't do it with tension on the risers, because it would deploy the reserve prematurely. i wear mine, and always know where the "red" is, my plan is to dissconnect it in a "high speed mal, or spinning mal" just in case i need to get untangled, or get stable. i hope everybody is comfortable that different methods are utilized at different DZ's, and different termonology as well. but in the end, if a system does not work, and you can't land it............
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[Merrick 0]

I caught up with this thread recently & thought I would give my opinion... Richard, I don't think Remi, or anyone, was trying to point out who's right or wrong. I think the whole terminoligy 'war' was simply as they've said, to point out that there are industry standards that are taught to students so that we all can communicate properly. If you leave the terminology vague, I was taught to cut-away & pull my reserve on a partial mal, but to simply pull my reserve on a total mal. Let's say that some student who has maybe 10 jumps or so is discussing this very thing with you, you start talking about a streamer as a total mal... I can then see him getting confused or, worse yet, idolizing you because you're a 250+ jump skygod (not trying to be antagonistic... think back to when you had 10 jumps, those guys with 200+, hell even 100 jumps seemed like they were just awesome, and you would seriously consider their opinionons as gospel... now we know better!). Anyway, I can see this student thinking "Hmmm... a total mal, I go straight for my reserve!" but NOW he's thinking that a streamer is a total mal, surely you can see the problem. Bottom line is, you call it what you want, but when you're talking to someone with less experience or anyone who's seeking advice, I think, just so there is NO confusion that you should qualify your total/partial with your definition of what you believe they are.
Peace Brudda!
"Pammi's Hemp/Skydiving Jewelry"

[PhreeZone 20]

You say that you are going to pull the French link off the riser in the case of a total or a spinner huh? All that will do is waste valuable altitude that would be better used in exectuing your emergency procedures.
Have you ever been under a spinning main? Its a disconcerting feeling. I always imagined it just like being in a hard spirl. It's not, its more like being in a flipping horny gorilla and being spun at the same time. I was under a spinning main that got line twists when a brake popped on me. If I had'nt hit the other brake there is no way I would have taken the time to locate the link (since its being tossed around with the spin) reach up and accelerate the spin, disconnect the link, pull it clear of the riser, then hit the cutaway handle. Talk to your S&ta about the idea of using at least 2 additional seconds to clear your RSL in a high speed mal, and I'm willing to bet you get a really funny look from him.
At 2200 feet you are at a max 16 seconds from impact, take 2 seconds to realize a mal, another 2 to disconnect the rsl and hit the cutaway and another to hit the reserve. Thats putting you in the neighborhood of 1200-1400 feet. Say a fast 300 feet opening. That now puts you at 900-1100 feet. you now have just 900 feet to steer toward the dropzone or find an out, learn the new flare point of a canopy and deal with any thing line line twists on the reserve from your body spinning at deployment. Even if you fall away from a spinning main, you need to burn lots of altutude to get totally stable. Just think about how much time its going to waste trying to grab that little piece of fabric as its floping all around and your still traveling at a non moving solid body at 120+.......
Different terms are used, but when the main organization uses a term for something, almost everything else accepts it and adopts it for thier teachings too....
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[rgoper 0]

merrick:
well said and recieved. i never thought of it from that perspective, thanks.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[rgoper 0]

phreezone:
yes, i have been under two violently spinning canopys, both of them my own, the same one i fly now. one, the brake came unstowed during deployment, and the other because the left steering line had about a gazillion twists in it causing the canopy to spin out of control upon deployment, (my own fault, back packing procedures, new procedure, untwists steering lines, each jump!!) the first time this happned to me, yeah, it was really scary, the second time, it was still scary, but i had this "been there, done that" feeling going on, so it wasn't that bad, although i didn't like flying in a spiraling downplane configuration with my canopy. on both occasions, i did get my RSL dissconnected first, before anything else successfully, but was able to "clear the mal(s)" before emergency procedures, which i did not have to employ. i want to add, this is my plan AND I DO NOT RECCOMEND IT TO ANYONE ELSE! i make it a habit to always know where the tab is just for that, but again, that's just me.let me also add that on some dives, i dissconnect it entirely, before the dive.
Blue Skies, Hot Days:
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[billvon 3,123]

>if it's ok with you guys, i will continue to refer to a streamer as a "total" mal, ok?
You can call it whatever you like. Just please, please do not talk to students and/or new jumpers and use your new system of terminology. A term you enjoy using can kill someone if they use a few words from your system and a few from the conventional skydiver vocabulary, and come to a glaringly wrong conclusion (i.e. don't waste time to cut away from a total AKA a streamer.) It has happened before.
-bill von

[billvon 3,123]

>i did get my RSL dissconnected first, before anything else successfully, but was
>able to "clear the mal(s)" before emergency procedures, which i did not have to
> employ.
Just a warning - history has shown that you do what you practice, not what you think would be a good idea on the ground. If you regularly unhook your RSL before dealing with a problem, that's what you will do if you ever find yourself under a "total mal" or whatever it is you call a thing you have to cut away from. That's fine, as long as you have the altitude, and as long as it is possible. If it's not possible (I had one mal where I couldn't even _see_ the risers much less the RSL) it may kill you, or tempt you dangerously low.
I know, you'd never search for the RSL for that long. But our muscle memory is suprisingly strong, and more than one person has gone in tugging on their harnesses, or searching for a main handle. Just something to keep in mind.
-bill von

[rgoper 0]

billvon:
please see my response to merrick, ok? and i did add that if i dissconnect my RSL, that it is my plan, and i DO NOT advise others to do as i am doing, this is my plan, and mine alone, although i did learn it elsewhere. despite what gets attention in this forum, the student should listen to the certified jump masters that are teaching them. i am not above learning myself, but i could do without the sarcasm, and being "pounced upon" by numerous individuals. i also related to what the sky diving manuel said about the totals, and partials, i thought i had it covered from all angles, guess not, huh?
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[rgoper 0]

billyvon:
are you implying that someone is going to be influenced to not cut away a streamer because of my reference? that's absurd. if a jumper doesn't cutaway from a streamer, i don't know what to say. i tried correcting myself by referring to the sim, but obviously it's not good enough for you, play fair now. read ALL the post, instead of just select little bits and taking them out of context. thanking you in advance for you kind help.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[RemiAndKaren 0]

Richard,
I'm no expert. I know that. I aslo know that 25 partials in 250 jumps is awfylly high, thats why I ask what a partial was for you. I guess you are right, if you include end cell closure, light line twists, etc...
Ths Merrick for clearing up my goal here. There are a lot of new jumpers (or even people who havent jumped yet) reading these threads, and I for one do not want to confuse them with the wrong terminology or procedure. I am sure you never wanted to confuse people Richard, but you will.
Remi
Muff 914

[rgoper 0]

Remi:
PLEASE refer to my posts to Merrick. i emphasized the fact that i had never thought of it that way, and made reference to the way the sim states it, why in the hell are we "beating a dead horse?" i added a dissclaimer as well, and added that in the end the student needs to listen to there jump masters, what else can i do? each dz employs different methods of beginner and progression methods, which often include very different termonology than the sim, maybe because that's the way that the particular dive master likes it, i don't know. cut me some slack.........whadduya say? i'm not out to reinvent the wheel, although i am an engineer by trade, and i do have my own ideas about handling different circumstances. you have now made mention of my partials again, i tried to explain how they were happening, and what types they were. this i know for a fact, i am a safe sky diver, have never been injured, and have never injured anyone else, in fact i'm also an EMT/Paramedic and tend to injured jumpers on the drop zone all the time. (two shoulder seperations in two weekends, back to back) i try my level best to help out anyone who asks, but i am not in the position to continue litigation with you, or anyone else in this particular forum, if i want a good argument, all i have to do is go wake up my wife right now. you ask anyone who knows me, if thev'e ever seen me do anything unsafe, see what you find out. and no, i won't confuse anyone either, unless there not paying attention to there drop zone divemasters, and doing there own research in the sim, but they to, will one day have opinions of there own. can you honestly say that you go along with everything in the sim, verbatim? we are all entitled to our own opinions, why should i be any different? have a safe and happy holiday season.
Richard
"Gravity is My Friend"