Student seat belt use

[tdog 0]

Novice AFF instructor question here - since I only have three jumps (fun jumps) from a Cessna, I am kind of spoiled by bigger planes and their procedures.

I saw a video of a student sitting by the door in a small Cessna... Student not leaving due to winds. Experienced jumper leaves at full altitude. Student had seat belt on while sitting by open door...

Due to the fact the other jumper could cause some emergency where all would have to bail, and/or the student's PC could go out the open door - I thought the rule was - door open, seatbelts off. (and why a lot of DZs require the door to be closed until an altitude where a prudent skydiver would be willing to bail on their reserve)

What is your policy? For the sake of discussion - lets talk about both small Cessna's where the student is right in the door, or maybe an Otter where the student sits far from the door... If the student cannot leave or is not going to leave - but the door is open... Seatbelt on or off?

[Miami 0]

As long as my student is wearing a rig they take their seatbelt off at 1000' and keep it off for the rest of the ride, unless they have to ride down, then they put it back on at roughly 1500-2000'. Doesn't change for me regardless of what a/c it is.

Miami

[feuergnom 29]

what he said

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[TheDonMan 0]

Always take off the seat belt at 1000ft regardless of AC.

The world is full of willing people, some willing to work, the rest willing to let them.

[tdog 0]

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Always take off the seat belt at 1000ft regardless of AC.

Well, our DZ has a 2000 foot rule for everyone that I should obey - but I get the point - that I am not crazy...

[AggieDave 6]

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Always take off the seat belt at 1000ft regardless of AC.

Do you think that 4 people could get the door open and get out at 1000ft in a 182 that had the engine quit? What altitude would the 4th person be leaving at? What about the pilot trying to hold a little bit of altitude with the jump door open on a 182 trying to let his friends out safely AND trying to find a field to land in AND trying not to stall the plane out.

I've been in a 182 when the prop quit spinning, it was at about 250ft and we went from 250ft to ground level FAST. That's what got me thinking, that's why I believe that we should change the thinking about 1000ft to 1500ft. That extra 500ft could be all the difference.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Fast 0]

I saw the same video and didn't like the use of a seatbelt right next to the open door. I think the risk of a PC out the door outweighs the risk of the student falling out.

I wouldn't have had the seatbelt on if it was a coached student that I was in charge of.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[BASE841 3]

I was the one who shot the video and was her reserve-side AFF-I. When the experienced jumper in the back chose to jump in winds too high for our student, I weighed the risks of a PC out and catastrophic aircraft mal vers. her accidentally falling out while he was between me and my student. I decided the chances of the latter were higher than the former and snapped her seatbelt on. Once the door was closed, I took it off until shortly before landing.

So far, most posts have been to keep it off. In the case that was staring me in the face, the choice was obvious to me, and I'd do it again unless my S&TA tells me otherwise.

By an interesting coincidence, we're having a DZ-I meeting tomorrow, where I'll bring this up. I'll let you folks know about the discussion and the final decision by our S&TA.

[tdog 0]

Cool video, and I am glad your student had so much fun.

I hope you understand my tone was more curious than anything, because I don't claim to know much of anything - because I learn stuff every day.

[bch7773 0]

our DZ uses 1500 ft for that exact same reasoning.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Miami 0]

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Do you think that 4 people could get the door open and get out at 1000ft in a 182 that had the engine quit?

It's not only about getting out. At 1000' if the engine quits you may need to get out, or you may need to refasten your seatbelt...which you should have time for at that alt.

Miami

[riggerrob 643]

If you glance at her pilot chute - before you open the door - and it is still in its pouch, the chances of it slipping out (while she is sitting quietly) are tiny.

[AggieDave 6]

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It's not only about getting out. At 1000' if the engine quits you may need to get out, or you may need to refasten your seatbelt...which you should have time for at that alt.

Thats why I prefer the 1500ft seatbelt policy at some DZs. If you're below 1500ft but the pilot needs everyone out, its nothing to pop the seatbelt and get out. Its faster to take a belt off then put one back on (especially for setups that have the seatbelt running through harnesses).

For just about every single engine jump plane out there, including a 182, I can't see how a load would be able to get out with enough altitude for the last few jumpers at 1000ft. With a twin engine plane, it depends on the plane and pilot, the pilot may be able to sustain altitude with a single engine for everyone's safety on leaving the plane.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Orange1 0]

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I was the one who shot the video and was her reserve-side AFF-I. When the experienced jumper in the back chose to jump in winds too high for our student,

This is off the main topic, but interested me in that it implies you would have had the experienced jumper follow you out. I did AFF in a 182, and anytime an experienced jumper came up with us, they had to get out at 9000' while we went up to 11000'. I guess the logic being AFF students can end up tumbling all over the sky. Just out of interest, what type of jump was he doing and what kind of separation would he have been told to give you, or would he have been on a second jump run?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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As long as my student is wearing a rig they take their seatbelt off at 1000' and keep it off for the rest of the ride, unless they have to ride down, then they put it back on at roughly 1500-2000'. Doesn't change for me regardless of what a/c it is.

Agreed.

[BASE841 3]

The experienced jumper was going to take another pass, then belly fly.

[livendive 8]

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As long as my student is wearing a rig they take their seatbelt off at 1000' and keep it off for the rest of the ride, unless they have to ride down, then they put it back on at roughly 1500-2000'. Doesn't change for me regardless of what a/c it is.

That's basically my approach. When landing with the plane I guess I put it on a little sooner...maybe 2000-3000 feet, but I can see how lower makes sense.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[mark135 0]

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I was the one who shot the video and was her reserve-side AFF-I. When the experienced jumper in the back chose to jump in winds too high for our student, I weighed the risks of a PC out and catastrophic aircraft mal vers. her accidentally falling out while he was between me and my student. I decided the chances of the latter were higher than the former and snapped her seatbelt on. Once the door was closed, I took it off until shortly before landing.

There was another choice. one where you didnt have to weigh any risks.
just tell the exp. jumper no, we are all riding down.he can go up on the next load.

_______________


"It seemed like a good idea at the time"

[happychick 0]

Hi Dave I experienced and aircraft emergency at 1000' in a C182. The engine failed and all four of us got out and landed safely.
The a/c and pilot also made it.
I have always believed we were very very lucky that day. Only the pilot was wearing a seatbelt, the dz did not enforce a seatbelt policy. The DZ is no longer open.

[AggieDave 6]

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Hi Dave I experienced and aircraft emergency at 1000' in a C182. The engine failed and all four of us got out and landed safely.

Glad things turned out the way they did. Some questions, if you don't mind, since obviously your emergancy situation in a 182 was very different from mine.

Was the engine still producing any power? How low did the last person get out at? How long do you think it took for all 4 to exit and did the pilot exit the AC?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[happychick 0]

Sure I don't mind.

Nope it lost all power.
I would be guessing as I was first out at 1000'. We were flying over a canyon and as the last 2 got out they had the canyon depth for more altitude so they most likely were around 900 to 1000'.
As first out I never saw anyone else leave the plane. The pilot stayed with it, dove the a/c down into the canyon, gained speed, brought it up and essentially did a hook turn onto a field. There was no damage and no serious injuries.

[redramdriver 0]

We recently adopted this same idea after one of our jump pilots gave us a class on fall rate of a 182 with the door open. We have since changed our way of thinking, and our plan, seat belts on/off at 1500' as well.

So, you bring your beer?

Its 5 o'clock somewhere
POPS #9344

[fcajump 164]

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Sure I don't mind.

Nope it lost all power.
I would be guessing as I was first out at 1000'. We were flying over a canyon and as the last 2 got out they had the canyon depth for more altitude so they most likely were around 900 to 1000'.
As first out I never saw anyone else leave the plane. The pilot stayed with it, dove the a/c down into the canyon, gained speed, brought it up and essentially did a hook turn onto a field. There was no damage and no serious injuries.

Glad to hear your situation came out ok... good you had the canyon.

I don't remember where I read it, but a few years back read of a similar situation without a handy canyon and several of the jumpers did not get open in time. I would suggest that given the canyon you were effecitvely at 2000' AGL... This sounds more like a reasonable time to bail-out of a C-182...

Thanks for the reflections for us to consider!
Jim

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[happychick 0]

Thanks! Nope we had 1000' AGL using the canyon depth of about 400'.

Shannon

[Miami 0]

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We recently adopted this same idea after one of our jump pilots gave us a class on fall rate of a 182 with the door open. We have since changed our way of thinking, and our plan, seat belts on/off at 1500' as well.

How much time did he say you had from 1000' till ground with a fully loaded 182? And what is your minimum bail out alt in an a/c emergency?

Miami