Universal risers

[Andrewwhyte 1]

From AFF student gear thread

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On a second note
Does anyone use student rigs with universal risers?
(the risers that make out of sequence cutaway impossible)

Where I used to work we had them but where I am at now we don't

We bought a DZ last year that has universal risers on the gear so I have just spent a year working with them.
The first thing I noticed about them is what a pain in the ass they are to hook up. That and the sudden shortage of double ended loops make them annoying to work with.
More importantly is the need for a longer than usual rip cord in order to insure the cut-away cables activate before the reserve. This in turn means you need to insure the student clears the rip cord. A student with short arms could theoretically reach the end of their arm stroke without activating the reserve. This, to me, is a solution in search of a problem; one which creates it's own problem as it goes.
When we replace the gear it will not include universal risers. We will depend on training to insure the correct EP sequence.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

All of the student rigs we (Raeford Parachute Center) bought in mid 2001 were student Javelins which were all equipped with what you are calling "universal risers". In reality, they are just SOS rigs with a separate cutaway. As not all of our student rigs are so equipped, we never told the student that pulling the wrong handle first would not kill them. There really isn't a problem with the longer-needed reserve handle pull on the rig since if you pull it far enough to cutaway, but not far enough to activate the reserve, the RSL will still take care of that. Once again, we still only taught the proper two-handed "look, reach, look reach, pull, pull, clear" technique to all of our students no matter what they were jumping.

I have never heard of the system in question being called "universal risers" though.

Chuck Blue
D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, BMCI, PRO

[livendive 8]

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All of the student rigs we (Raeford Parachute Center) bought in mid 2001 were student Javelins which were all equipped with what you are calling "universal risers". In reality, they are just SOS rigs with a separate cutaway. As not all of our student rigs are so equipped, we never told the student that pulling the wrong handle first would not kill them.

Thanks for explaining the term. So we're talking about one cutaway handle and one SOS handle, not two SOS handles, right?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Exactly. The "regular" cutaway handle (on the right) is exactly that. The silver steel reserve ripcord, in it's standard location on the left, acts just like an SOS if you screw up and pull the wrong handle first.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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All of the student rigs we (Raeford Parachute Center) bought in mid 2001 were student Javelins which were all equipped with what you are calling "universal risers". In reality, they are just SOS rigs with a separate cutaway. As not all of our student rigs are so equipped, we never told the student that pulling the wrong handle first would not kill them. There really isn't a problem with the longer-needed reserve handle pull on the rig since if you pull it far enough to cutaway, but not far enough to activate the reserve, the RSL will still take care of that. Once again, we still only taught the proper two-handed "look, reach, look reach, pull, pull, clear" technique to all of our students no matter what they were jumping.

I have never heard of the system in question being called "universal risers" though.

Chuck Blue
D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, BMCI, PRO

The term was one used in the other thread.

True, the problem with the longer rip cord is moot if the rsl does it's job (or if the opener does its). However systems and procedures need to be designed not to rely on the back-ups. I know of a tandem pair that went in because (among other things) the rsl came undone during the jump.
I just think it's overkill. If i thought it was really necessary I would install it on my own gear.

[voodew1 0]

I was the one that brought up the discussion and when the rigs were ordered "universal risers" were the term used during the ordering process ??? What else would they be called???

As for

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I just think it's overkill. If i thought it was really necessary I would install it on my own gear

It is a safety thing for new jumpers who my be overwhelmed and panick not for the experienced jumper.

My question is why not have it -- your comments about how hard they are to hook up????? how often are you taking them apart???

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[mark 107]

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when the rigs were ordered "universal risers" were the term used during the ordering process ??? What else would they be called???

Sunpath calls them "dual cutaway risers," and the system is a "dual cutaway system."

"Universal risers" would connect to my capewells, tapewells, and my 3-rings, and to a host of other riser receivers.

Mark

[voodew1 0]

The rigs in question were Wings but I do see your point.

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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My question is why not have it -- your comments about how hard they are to hook up????? how often are you taking them apart???

Not that often, but since I have thirty of them it does come up. The real problem I have with them is the need for the longer than usual ripcords and shorter than usual cutaway cables.

[livendive 8]

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It is a safety thing for new jumpers who my be overwhelmed and panick not for the experienced jumper.

My question is why not have it...???

Why have them? Is there a rash of students doing out of sequence EPs? If there is, wouldn't better instruction be a better alternative to adding one more layer of gear conversion when they finish student status? Students should know by the end of their training how to maintain their riser connection point, and such a system just complicates the matter, doesn't it? Not to mention the possibility that some instructor might train the function of the SOS handle at which point the student can see it as the easier step. Bad on the sport gear they're moving to, and for that matter bad if someone doesn't notice a single cable going through both loops on the gear their jumping. Basically, it seems like an unnecessary complication of the gear and the training.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

We have never had an out of sequence student cutaway since I have been working at Raeford. That said, I think the system has it's merits. I don't know why you would want to switch the risers from that rig onto another type of rig or vice-versa. As to taking them apart and hooking them back up (for maintanence I would assume), it's not a big deal. You just have two cutaway cables on each side which go through either end of a free-floating white loop. Anyone who has ever packed a tandem rig will know immediately how to stow the cables and how NOT to stow them.

Chuck

[livendive 8]

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We have never had an out of sequence student cutaway since I have been working at Raeford. That said, I think the system has it's merits. I don't know why you would want to switch the risers from that rig onto another type of rig or vice-versa. As to taking them apart and hooking them back up (for maintanence I would assume), it's not a big deal. You just have two cutaway cables on each side which go through either end of a free-floating white loop. Anyone who has ever packed a tandem rig will know immediately how to stow the cables and how NOT to stow them.

I wasn't talking about moving the risers from that rig to another, rather training the students on that type of riser connection and then another...like training ripcord pulls and then converting to throw-out, or SOS and then converting to DOS. Having packed my fair share of tandems, I know the free-floating loop thing, but we're not talking about you or me, we're talking about students. One other thing...my understanding is that the grommet through a riser is the riser's weakest point. In this type of riser, you have to double the number of grommets through it. Anyhow, I don't think it sounds like a terrible system, and it might someday prove to be a great feature for a less than stellar student. It just seems like something that makes gear a little bit more complicated, in hopes of fixing a problem that doesn't really exist.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billbooth 10]

The "universal riser" system complicates the canopy release system, thereby introducing new chances to mis-rig it. This reduces its reliability. When we went from one drogue release handle to two, on early Vector tandem systems, we utilized the same double ended loop method the universal riser system uses. Guess what...we also went from almost no failure-to-release-drogue malfunctions to constant failure-to- release-drogue malfunctions. Packers would put both cables through both loops. Loops would get replaced with incorrectly made loops that were too stiff because of the stitching used. The point is I've been through this already, and it's a proven bad idea. Why would anyone in their right mind want to lower the reliability of STUDENT canopy release systems?

[bob.dino 1]

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my understanding is that the grommet through a riser is the riser's weakest point.

Nope.

[voodew1 0]

Well hopefully the instructors are doing the at least 2 gear checks on the ground and the one in the plane before exit --- its pretty easy to see wether or not it rigged right

But then the TIs are supposed to check their shit too so I guess it can happen.

I personally like the system even though I have never had a student do an out of sequence deployment --- for that matter never had a student with a mal -- but it that one student that has an out of seq deployment might be saved by it.

As for training with it -- the student is never taught that there is a single release handle, they are taught regular procedures and all student / rental gear is checked by the AFFIs or DZO before they leave the building -- before every jump

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[riggerrob 643]

The real problem I have with them is the need for the longer than usual ripcords and shorter than usual cutaway cables.