Tandems and RSLs?

[ColdDuck 0]

I was doing a tandem yesterday, open up the main. Complete ball of shit, lineover and a few tension knots. The canopy starts spinning quickly from the get-go. I release the brakes just to see what if anything it might would do, nothing changes. So I chop it, my passenger and I are on out side as yhr main releases. I try to get back belly to earth, but the RSL pulls the reserve before I do I think. I see the free bag go zipping past my head. Next thing I know I am under my reserve qhich is doing the usual fly-stall thingy. I notice however, that the canopy is jerking my to the left rather violentyly. I look up and see that I also have a lineover on my reserve. I release the brakes and the lineover cleared soon after that.

This experience has left me wondering if any tandem masters choose to jump without the RSL connected?

"Insurance should called In case shit happens, if shit don't happen shouldn't I get my money back?"

[linestretch 0]

first of all, what sorta of tandem rig are you jumping? A line over on the reserve......yikes! I've been jumping without the RSL for about the last 1,000 tandems, and have had 2 chops without them. BUT......they weren't violent mals. I'm still not sure how I feel about it totally.

my pics & stuff!

[skydiverton 0]

If I jump a rig with a RSL to both risers or a collins lanyard I leave it attached.
RSL to one riser: Disconnect (Due to the one side releases earlier situation)

Note: according to my licence I'm not required to jump with an RSL on a cypress equipped rig.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[diablopilot 2]

I know several Strong TI's that do, and a couple RWS TI's that wish they could.


Me? I'll always do tandems with the RSL attached on exit.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[skydog 2]

I had, near enough, the exact same experience.

As for jumping with an RSL..... I still do as a matter of course. After thinking through the various scenarios, I am more infavour of jumping with one attached.

When I was jumping strong in NZ, one place didnt have them attached (read, not on the kit) and the other it was up to the individual TM.

I think it is a case of weighing up the options and deciding from there.

Bryn

Journey not destination.....

[billbooth 10]

The Skyhook was designed precisely to solve this "dilemma" with RSL's and tandem. Because it takes so long (nearly 3 seconds) to get to line stretch after a tandem breakaway (big heavy canopy with long lines), and because it is sometimes hard to maintain stability during this time with a "kicking and screaming" student, there have been many jumper/reserve line entanglements after tandem breakaways. Two of these were fatal. By getting your reserve to line stretch in 3/4 of a second, as well as deploying it directly "in-line" with your body, the Skyhook yields remarkably "clean" reserve deployments. Without any RSL, however, I believe that getting into a side- spin while trying to get stable again is a distinct possibility.

[tombuch 0]

Consider your equipment, even if you don't own it. The Skyhook is super cool because it almost eliminates unstable reserve openings. That's a key advantage of the Sigma over other rigs. If your drop zone uses a different rig, convince them to switch to the Sigma with Skyhook.

As for not using an RSL on a tandem, damn do I think that's a bad idea. When things go bad on a tandem, they go fast and ugly. That's especially likely to happen on a spinning cutaway with a freaked out student. Plus, with an RSL you have an additional way to get the reserve out. I've been certified on the Strong, Racer, Vector, Sima (with and without Skyhook), and have about 1,000 tandem jumps. I'm a believer in RSL's and the Skyhook.

Please also check out the USPA BSR's. Under Parachute Equipment it says that all student jumps (no exceptions for tandems) must use an RSL. If you are jumping at a USPA dropzone, or have a USPA tandem rating you must use an RSL unless you have a waiver from the BOD.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Mixoligist 0]

I'm with Bill, the skyhook is the way.

I'd bet my life on it

..................................
Better you than me
..................................

[riggerrob 643]

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first of all, what sorta of tandem rig are you jumping? A line over on the reserve......yikes!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sounds like he is jumping a Vector containing a PD360 reserve. I never did enjoy opening them as mains. The problem is that they had to stow the brakes so deep - for soft openings - that they open in a stall, bucking and surging until you release the brakes, then spend another minute untangling the lower steering line from the end of the L-bar link.
Hee!
Hee!
Nothing like making a TI work for his measley $30!


line-over on the reserve = firing the rigger!

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[riggerrob 643]

Back in the early 1990s I often disconnected my RSL when doing tandems. But that was back when we suffered a lot of broken risers. We solved the problem by switching to Type 7 risers and hiring better packers. We still catch the occasional flipped through riser during packing, but make it clear to packers that they do not get paid if they pack a rig with a flipped through riser.
Now I religiously leave my RSL attached on Strongs.
If I had a choice, I would wear a Skyhook.

[ColdDuck 0]

I have complete faith in the rigger that packs my tandem and personal reserves. I am convinced that the lineover I did have, which cleared almost as soon as I released the brakes was a result of my body position when the reserve came off my back.

And yes I am jumping Vectors

"Insurance should called In case shit happens, if shit don't happen shouldn't I get my money back?"

[aironscott 3]

Bill-
Thank you for posting here as often as you do. Being the "Big Daddy" of tandems I think that its great that you let us all know your opinions and suggestions. I know that you have done tons of research and development on the skyhook but I got to tell you that I have not noticed much of a difference in opening speeds on slow speed tandem cutaways between skyhook and RSL openings. I should say that I don't see many high speed tandem mals. Even with the cool canopies that we have out now. To me the skyhook is a bit overkill. After all we are opening up at 4000- 5000', there is time.
There are a couple of things about the skyhook that bother me. The fact that I no longer have access to a crystal ball with my right hand (or teeth) bugs me. I have also seen bag strip with a skyhook equiped rig(Wasn't me but I was watching it with my student under canopy about 200 yds away). And even though you sent out that circular on how to set up and pack the skyhook, I still open rigs and find that they have been packed wrong.
I'm sounding kinda bitchy here and I apologise for that. Just so you know, the Sigma is by far and away the best thing to happen to tandem skydiving since the drogue. I say that as a tandem I and as a rigger and I thank you for coming up with as good as a design as any of us could have hoped for thus far.

As to the person who is wondering about wether or not he sould use his RSL.....don't ever unhook it until you have a good main.

Oh what the hell anyway....what could possible go wrong?
Here - hold my beer.....watch this!

Aaron

“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!”

[billbooth 10]

You're right. Because tandem reserves take so long to open anyway, the Skyhook doesn't make a whole lot of difference (about 150 feet) in opening altitude, compared to a normal RSL deployment. What a Skyhook does accomplish is to get your canopy to line stretch much faster (3/4 of a second vs 3 seconds). Again, this can be very important as two people have died due to entanglement with reserve lines after tandem breakaways.

As to bag strips, we have never seen a bag strip in literally hundreds of Skyhook videos. In the beginning, I too was worried about bag strip, so I did a lot of drop tower tests, and designed the Skyhook bridle to break before it puts enough force on the bag to cause strip. The military has now done a lot of Skyhook tests with much larger and heavier canopies, and much higher loads than we see sport tandem jumping, and also have seen no bag strips.

[tdog 0]

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As to bag strips, we have never seen a bag strip in literally hundreds of Skyhook videos.

Can someone educate me to the definition of "bag strip". What, when, how?

[NickDG 23]

You can liken bag strip to pulling a tablecloth off a set table without disturbing the dishes and silverware. The problem of bag strip first came to light years ago with the advent of the reserve freebag. A free bag, as you know, is not "hard" connected to a reserve canopy in anyway. Under certain circumstances after the reserve pilot chute launches and the bridle loads up, the mouth of the line stow pouch on the freebag can open prematurely spilling out the lines and then allowing the canopy out of the bag. This either leaves you with a mess at best, or at worst, a reserve canopy sitting in the container with no good way to get it out.

Bag strip can also occur on canopies with full stow bags, like mains, when the stow band system fails for one reason or another. However in this case because the bag "is" connected to the canopy you'll still get line stretch. You'd then experience a deployment that is essentially "free" packed. This means the canopy is packed except no deployment bag or line stowage system is used. I think a lot of very hard openings are caused by this but no one sees it and there's no evidence of it after the fact.

As for using RSLs and Skyhooks, or not, it breaks down like this. There are just too many different situations that can develop. You can only hope you have the right gear and the right setup to deal with the situation you get handed. Nothing works all the time. It's why you can pretty much disregard it when someone says either, "My RSL worked fine and I will always use it." Or, "I saw a RSL kill someone and I will never use it." In both cases you have a person who doesn't understand the nature of the beast . . .

On the subject of tandem in general, to me the advent of tandems seems like the U.S. space program of the late 50s and early 60s. The air force is then using winged runway launched airplanes and getting closer to space with every flight. This can be compared to when tandems are first done without using a drogue system. Then the airplane to space idea is scraped in favor of the rocket launched vehicles and now here we are with the space shuttle and all its problems. If they had stuck with the airplane approach we'd probably be there by now and if we hadn't gone to drogue systems on tandems we might also have figured out a way to reef for tandem terminal. The space program is now trying to come up with a runway to space program, like what the Rutan Brothers are doing, but NASA lost all those years of development.

The next rich person in skydiving will be the one who figures out non-drogue terminal tandem . . . Obviously the reefing has to be more slowly staged, but if not a reefing innovation to slow the deployment how about moving the drogue concept from the rig to the tandem pilot. Can you envision a tandem wing suit? Drogues are accepted as normal nowadays, but old timers still feel like you jump, intentionally give yourself a pilot chute in tow, and then spend the next 50 seconds making goofy faces at the camera . . .

NickD BASE 194

[tdog 0]

That was one of the more educational posts I have read in a while.

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Under certain circumstances after the reserve pilot chute launches and the bridle loads up, the mouth of the line stow pouch on the freebag can open prematurely spilling out the lines and then allowing the canopy out of the bag. This either leaves you with a mess at best, or at worst, a reserve canopy sitting in the container with no good way to get it out.

Now I got it... So, how do you prevent this? Are those "certain circumstances" definable as "if these two or three things happen, you are likely to..." - or are they the "random" sort that you never know what hand of cards you will be dealt?

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Then the airplane to space idea is scraped in favor of the rocket launched vehicles and now here we are with the space shuttle and all its problems.

And the rumors I hear from friends who work in the space industry... Look for a capsule design, like the apollo program, to return...

[billbooth 10]

I did figure out tandem terminal openings, back in 1984. (We had to. Tandem reserves do not have drogues.) There were over 10, 000 tandem jumps on our 360 main before I went to the drogue. I made about 300 of those personally, and tandem terminal opening shocks were not the problem. The problem was the speed itself. Several tandem terminal jumps in a row really beat you up, and the photographers simply could not keep up. So according to your prediction, I should be really rich by now. What happened?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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This experience has left me wondering if any tandem masters choose to jump without the RSL connected?

I didn't jump with an RSL on tandems, but I did jump with the Skyhook a few times.

Derek

[John4455 0]

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If your drop zone uses a different rig, convince them to switch to the Sigma with Skyhook.

I made that suggestion when Paul McGowen brought his new sigma to the DZ. All I got was a funny look. I would have loved to try it.

How do ya like it Johnny?

[riggerrob 643]

The next rich person in skydiving will be the one who figures out non-drogue terminal tandem . . . Obviously the reefing has to be more slowly staged, but if not a reefing innovation to slow the deployment how about moving the drogue concept from the rig to the tandem pilot. Can you envision a tandem wing suit? Drogues are accepted as normal nowadays, but old timers still feel like you jump, intentionally give yourself a pilot chute in tow, and then spend the next 50 seconds making goofy faces at the camera . . .

NickD BASE 194

[efs4ever 3]

I have four tandem chops in 1050 tandem, and I used the RSL on all of them. It bothered me during the eternity till reserve over my head when I did NOT have Sky Hook. I was spinning on every one of the mals, and felt uncomfortable with the body position on reserve deployment.... until...my fourth chop. That rig was equipped with a Sky Hook. It was on company gear. Soon after that I had my personal Sigma retro fitted with a Sky Hook. (Fortunately, I haven't chopped my own gear since 2002.)

You just don't have time to flip through the reserve lines on a Sky Hook deployment. Nuf Sed.

Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

[DanglesOZQld 0]

Quite happy NOT to have the RSL attached and the other guys don't use it either. The Tandem rigs of course have Cypres units fitted.

On my own personal gear the very first chop I ever had was from a spinning HP canopy with the rsl attached. Nothing like getting about 8-9 line twists on a reserve to get the pucker valve going!

BSBD! -Mark.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"