student with weights?

[Punky_Monkey 0]

Ok guys....debate nicely over this.

I am almost liscensed. I just have my tracking to pass and docking to do. I jumped with the lightest instructor we have this past weekend. Got tired of doing what I called the "dolphin" when I tried tracking so we decided to try to at least get some of my docks done.

Guess what...He had a big, baggy suit on. I had my custom ordered jumpsuit on. I had to fight like hell to catch up to him. When I did it was time to lock on and pull. He said he was as big as he could get. Basically I am screwed here. They still refuse to let me wear the lead. But yet tell me that once I am off student status I will need to wear it to jump with them. No win situation...

The way I see it I will be on student status here forever. So I am just going to focus on the "Door Monster" that reaccured and worry about finishing up when I get to another DZ in a month.

As far as me trying to run out a landing...very rarely happens. I PLF even when I can stand them up. Sometimes the PLF even happens a couple of seconds after I land.

*******
Punky Monkey
You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation

[pilotdave 0]

I used to always wear 6lbs for RW. Never could feel any difference under canopy (on a 150 or 135), but it made a HUGE difference in freefall. I suddenly started falling faster last season, so I ditched the weights. Twice I let experienced RW jumpers who hadn't jumped with me talk me into wearing weights because they were gonna keep a very fast fallrate. Went low both times and couldn't get back up (going low was a new experience for me). After the second time I started leaving my weights at home.
Tried 12 lbs twice when I first got my weight vest. Went WAY low in freefall but still didn't notice anything different under canopy.

Dave

[Ron 10]

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I expect nothing. As I said, if they're going to need them, transition over. But not immediately

No offense, but since you have never needed weight I am not sure you truely understand the problems of being a light butt in this sport.

I have been there. The best example I can give to you that would relate is imagine trying to teach an underweighted student in the ocean...They have to spend energy and time just trying to stay down. A light butt student has to spend a large amount of energy just to fall relative. Also the time spent is wasted time.

Not a productive or efficient learning environment.

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Weight increases dangers

6 pounds is not going to increase any level of danger. Plus it may solve one of the most dangerous situations I can think of...A Student needing help, but being above an Instructor.

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For Punky - that may be now, or the Coach doing the RW requirements for the A license should take steps to slow down.

I'll tell you that I did a Jump with Punky. She is a very light weight girl. She had told me that all of her instructors have always been below her. She had a tight JS custom made, but even with her tight jump suit, me in my "fat boy" suit I still was not willing to risk losing her (BTW I am about 5'6" and 160#'s not). See this was a transition to throwout jump, and a recurrency jump....I HAD to be there for her deployment...Being below her was the most dangerous situation I could think of.

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BTW, your words were "the same type of physics problem." It's not. Neutral bouyancy is a fundamental need for scuba divers, the equilivent of stable freefall for a jumper

The old "A" test had a question like this on it:
What is the most dangerous situation, Horizontal Seperation, or Vertical Seperation?

The answer is that Vertical seperation kills.

So while you may relate stablity to BC. The sport of skydiving is about being RELATIVE. And if the person is physicly at a disadvantage...You need PHYSICAL help. Just like adding weight on a SCUBA dive.

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If they can't obtain it, they'll be bouncing all over the place.

If a person can't fall stable with another person...They create Vertical seperation and that is a big danger.

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It is very dangerous to teach an underweighted student

It is very dangerous for a student to be above an instructor.

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the response typically is to grossly overweight them to make things easier for the class.

You seemed to have missed my earlier post.

1. Make sure the student is in the correct Jump Suit.
2. Put the correct Jump Suit on the Instructor.
3. If that still seems not safe, find a different Instructor....In this case it would have been a guy at our DZ that can fly a WS with students....She wanted to jump with me.
4. Put weight on the student.

Putting weight on the student in EITHER sport just to be lazy is bad...The first steps should be to make it as easy for the Student and adapt to them....But if the case calls for it...Putting weight on them is much safer than below the student.

In the case of a 100 pound girl (Or guy, lets not be sexist) putting weight on them is safer than making them adopt a difficult body position.

The performance benefits is a side effect, but never forget we are there to TEACH the student. We are not teaching anything if the student spends all their energy and time to stay down.

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It's not surprising you didn't need your belt for a fresh water dive. That's about a 6lb shift if all else remains the same.

Fresh water, steel backplate w/wing....Also, I was not fat then

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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So this is a very different physics question. Is adding 6lbs merely the equilivent of changing the wingloading slightly?

Yes, and no.

You bring up a good point about adding total weight to them as a part of their total mass. A 100 pound jumper with a 25 pound rig and 6 pounds means the jumper is carrying 31% of their total weight. This is not fun, and will make the student uncomfertable...So it should be avoided *if possible*.

However the danger of a student that could float above an Instructor is MUCH more important an issue to handle than discomfort.

We cannnot expect the student to match the Instructors fall rate...If Jumpsuits are not enough to ensure saftey...then it leaves two options....The Instructors should start on "weight watchers", or the Stundent will need lead.

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Adding 6lbs to a 105lb person is adding 5% (well, ignore the rig for now) to their momentum and kinetic energy. If they try to run out a landing and trip, is that lead very bad, mildly so,...?

Well the difference is 0.027...Not much of anything. We expect the Student to perform fine when we add 25 pounds of rig...In this case adding 6 pounds of lead is not that great of an increase...As you said 5%-6%. And the benefit of added saftey is the key point.

Instructors should do everything possible to adapt to the student. But the most important thing is to build as much saftey as possible. In SCUBA you can over weight the student even though the added bulk of the inflated BC to compensate will cause more drag and increase air consumption. Also having all the extra weight wears physically on the student...And its not fun.

But it is safer.

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But stepping back, my only point was that the weight belt in scuba is not optional equipment, outside of rare circumstances. You don't have the option of diving solo or doing freeflying to avoid wearing it.

On an AFF jump the skydiving student does not have the option of doing a solo or freeflying either.

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So long as there is a shallow bottom, the more lead, the 'safer' the student is, and the easier to watch over.

The faster an AFF student falls the safer it is on a skydive as well.

But in both cases the ideal situation is to try and reduce the weight needed. In skydiving you try to adapt to the student first and foremost...However, skydiving is a sport that is very difficult for the extremes of the weight spectrum. A very light weight student and a very big boy will spend a lot more energy trying to be relative than a "Normal" person.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelpdiver 2]

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Ok guys....debate nicely over this.

...

The way I see it I will be on student status here forever. So I am just going to focus on the "Door Monster" that reaccured and worry about finishing up when I get to another DZ in a month.

Don't worry- Ron and I occasionally have these discussions. Sometimes tries his patience a bit, but I end up with a much more detailed viewpoint of the matter at hand.

Seems odd that they won't let you use lead even with an A. I wondered if my dropzone was ever going to let me off AFF - seemed like they wanted me safe, but still paying often. Good luck with it at a new place, and put that door monster in its place.

[Punky_Monkey 0]

Thanks....The new place is only for a weekend next month. Should be able to finish up what I have left and then I can make the decision when I will wear the lead.

The "Door Monster" is getiing weaker, and weaker and weaker....

*******
Punky Monkey
You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation

[Ron 10]

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Don't worry- Ron and I occasionally have these discussions. Sometimes tries his patience a bit, but I end up with a much more detailed viewpoint of the matter at hand.

And he corrects me when I screw something up..

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Seems odd that they won't let you use lead even with an A

She does not have her "A" yet...Thats the problem. She can't fall with her Instructors, so she can't pass the objectives.

I see it often. A DZ will not let a student (Someone without a license) jump with lead. But then once they get the license they tell them to wear lead.

I talked with my mentor about this...He mentioned the same things you did about increasing their weight. He focused on how it would be uncomfertable. He also said that adding weight should never be a lazy "I's" way of dealing with the problem.

My stepped progression was created after talking with him about this issue.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,089]

>How do you feel of a student with 24 jumps wearing weights?

I would not require, or even ask, an AFF or SL student of mine to wear weights. Wearing weights increases the likelihood of injuring yourself when you're landing, and increases the odds of drowning if you land in water. I would also hesitate to use a standard weight vest or belt with lighter women, since it actually helps with stability - and it would not be good to graduate a jumper that could not get stable without weights.

That being said, I would have no problem putting weights on a coaching student if they were having serious fall rate problems _and_ they were beginning RW with other people. At that point, the risk of losing sight of one another due to fallrate changes (which adds to the risk of collision) outweighs the additional risk during landing, and at that point the jumper already has a few dozen landings

>The problem lies in that since I have started jumping my coaches
>and instructors have always been about 5 feet below me.

This really isn't acceptable in my book. Carey Peck, a 230+ lb guy, docked on one of the outer rings of the 300 way when it was falling at 104mph. He did it by using tricks that should be known to any competent instructor/coach - swoop cords, webbed gloves, sleeves and a loose suit made of draggy fabric. I can get down to 85mph in the tunnel with nothing more than my bigway suit, which corresponds to about 90-95mph with a rig on in freefall, and I'm a very average sized guy.

At the early stages of education, instructors must be able to stay with their students no matter what. Instructors who cannot do this are lacking critical freefall skills, in my opinion. You will sometimes see a student who goes flat and starts spinning suprise an AFF-I, and get above him. But for it to happen more than once is poor planning and poor flying on the part of the AFF-I. That's the problem I would fix.

[Punky_Monkey 0]

Thanks for your input.

I am from a small DZ and learned by S/L (I hate that thing). Aff was not an option for me.

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That being said, I would have no problem putting weights on a coaching student if they were having serious fall rate problems _and_ they were beginning RW with other people. At that point, the risk of losing sight of one another due to fallrate changes (which adds to the risk of collision) outweighs the additional risk during landing, and at that point the jumper already has a few dozen landings
hat thing).
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I am on my coached jumps and that is where this is all coming from. None of my instructors HERE are able to fly with me. So I will never be able to get the docking portion done. Hence why once again I will be on a flight to a larger DZ where the tools and everything else is available for me. I don't want to fly with weights but if it is something I have to do for now or when flying with others...So be it...Anything to make this dream a reality.

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At the early stages of education, instructors must be able to stay with their students no matter what. Instructors who cannot do this are lacking critical freefall skills, in my opinion. You will sometimes see a student who goes flat and starts spinning suprise an AFF-I, and get above him. But for it to happen more than once is poor planning and poor flying on the part of the AFF-I. That's the problem I would fix.
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I agree that is why I am flying out to a bigger DZ again. More options. I want to learn correctly. Not just wing it and hope the instructor saw something when I jumped. If I am going to skydive I want to learn correctly and not develope all these bad habits from winging it.

*******
Punky Monkey
You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation

[kelpdiver 2]

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She does not have her "A" yet...Thats the problem. She can't fall with her Instructors, so she can't pass the objectives.

I think she also said they told her that even off student status, they wouldn't let her use lead to jump with them. (post 26)

[Punky_Monkey 0]

This is what I said
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They still refuse to let me wear the lead. But yet tell me that once I am off student status I will need to wear it to jump with them.
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Which means no lead now...Lead as soon as I have my "A" if I want to jump with them...Nutso, Nutso....

I do realize I have to be able to fly my body and be stable without the lead. I think I do a good job at it. I hope at least. (Ron, you've jumped with me once. I am correct right?) Only problem I really ever had was a slow right handed turn. And that was only for a couple jumps on my delays and when I wasn't jumping much over winter. No it wasn't a spin. Samething happens to me when I am being stupid and just bring my left arm in to check alt. Habit trying to break.

*******
Punky Monkey
You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation

[Ron 10]

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I think she also said they told her that even off student status, they wouldn't let her use lead to jump with them. (post 26)

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They still refuse to let me wear the lead. But yet tell me that once I am off student status I will need to wear it to jump with them. No win situation...

Not how I read that....I read it as they will not let her wear lead till after she is off student status. But once off she will need to wear it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelpdiver 2]

ok, that's even dumber than how I read it. That's like training people on ripcords or SOS and not transitioning them until after they're done.

[billvon 3,089]

>If I am going to skydive I want to learn correctly and not develope all these bad habits . . .

That's a reasonable plan. Many schools are starting people earlier and earlier on booties, the mantis position, HP canopies etc with the idea that they won't have to 'unlearn' anything later. As long as you keep in mind that the primary goal is to skydive safely and the secondary goal is to have 'good form' etc. there's nothing wrong with going that route.

[Punky_Monkey 0]

ok, that's even dumber than how I read it. That's like training people on ripcords or SOS and not transitioning them until after they are done.
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I hate to tell you but at my DZ, my tiny home DZ they don't transition until after you have your "A". I got lucky on that one, when I went to a bigger DZ and transitioned.

*******
Punky Monkey
You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation

[Punky_Monkey 0]

Yes, I realize that the primary goal is to skydive safely and the secondary goal is to have 'good form' etc.

That's why I ask all sorts of questions when I don't understand something or agree with something. I am not afraid to ask any question. I have even asked before if you can sneeze in freefall.

*******
Punky Monkey
You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation

[DanglesOZQld 0]

In my own opinion I believe that the instructor is the person who should be able to keep up with the student certainly on all AFF and A licence jumps. Change instructors if this is not possible with the one you are jumping with.

There are arguments with camera flyers blaming Tandem masters for slow fall rates or fast ones for that matter also, and the instructor is the camera flyer in this case!! If you have a student it is up to YOU the instructor to fall at their rate at least initially!

ONCE TRAINING IS FINISHED or you have made the student work on their slow or fast fall rate as required I believe that weight should be a consideration.

IE- "A" licence to fly your own body and the following licences the trainee should be doing most of the work in preparation to jump with other groups in fun mode.

Like I stated prior just my own two cents worth, or $0.00001 when converted to US Dollars ;) BSBD! -Mark.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"