skydived19006 4 #26 July 19, 2005 Well, I guess I can now get off my soap box! And this sets a precedent for any other IAD/SL DZs! As Gary said, if enough of us apply for this waiver, they might change the BSRs. The BOD meeting was this last weekend, and my people earned their Coach Rating the weekend before. I did end up submitting individual names that this waiver applies to, it's not an open waiver for my DZ. Martin Air Capital Drop Zone Wichita Kansas "Martin, I'm glad you asked because I was going to contact you and forgot. The waiver was approved with very little discussion in the committee, and without any at all when voted on by the full BOD. The main part of the discussion in the committee was related to me suggesting that we change the related BSR. This shows that it is good to do the detailed work up front so that there are no questions from the BOD members. If you don't hear from Mike soon I suggest contacting him so you can put those Coaches to work this weekend. Good job. If more people would ask for a similar waiver, the BOD would realize that the related BSR might just need changing. :) -- Gary Peek"Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #27 July 20, 2005 QuoteIf I needed to get out at 3500 feet with my passenger, then I would unbuckle him, hook up at least one top snap, then exit and throw my drogue while holding the passenger around his waist with my left hand. Am I the only person in the world who hooks up the top two buckles of tandems before we even start to taxi? (except in bench-seat aircraft) QuoteI don't understand why you think having the door open with a belted-in tandem passenger is a big deal; it's not. In a Cessna, the tandem passenger (at least at our dropzone) is belted in facing the rear, right behind the pilot seat. In an Otter they are all the way up front. My understanding is that the paperwork that lets us use our inflight door requires that all persons in the airplane have at least an emergency parachute on while the door is open. As for the original point of this thread, I don't see the problem. Whether doing S/L, IAD, or AFF, a student should demonstrate an ability to control their heading and recover from instability before being cleared to jump with coaches. The BSRs word it a little differently, but says essentially the same thing. Once those criteria are met, further student jumps are not static line, IAD, or harness-hold, thus 4(c) becomes the relevant BSR and a coach rating is an "appropriate instructional rating" Is the argument that coaches should be allowed to dispatch students as soon as they're on clear & pulls instead of waiting until they've demonstrated an ability to control themselves in freefall? I think I'd prefer that the current design of the program be followed, i.e. people get their coach ratings, do a bunch of coach jumps (which will invariably teach them some of the bad things students can do), then get an Instructor rating with that experience under their belt, then let the newer students really scare the hell out of them. I know we used to allow someone with a hundred jumps to JM first freefall students, but the bar has been raised and I don't have a problem with it. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #28 July 21, 2005 Sheesh . . . just dump the coach rating and go back to Jumpmasters. Being a Jumpmaster "was" the training ground for becoming eligible for the Instructor rating. The coach rating is now giving wholesale access to pre-A-licensed jumpers in order to learn a trade. Rational jumpmaster training is holding up the malfunction pictures in the hanging harness room and assisting in other aspects of the FJC with a seasoned Instructor. The Jumpmaster Certification Course (JCC) taken prior to becoming a Jumpmaster would explain twenty ways to kill your student, ten ways to kill yourself, and five ways to bring down the whole bleeping aircraft. Static line jumping is a no fooling around thing. You are chucking the gear as much as the student and you have to understand how both of them work. We need to stay true to the original intent, no matter how anyone spins it. All student instruction is to be under the direct supervision of an Instructor. That means as long as I'm kneeling behind her in a C-182 I can hand the static line to my mother and let her tap one out. The coach rating is adrift and subject to interpretation. Sometimes it looks to me, like a layer of insulation between DZ's and the courts. and/or another profit center, at worst it shows the people making the rules aren't allowing student training its due. We blew it on the canopy landing thing. But, it wasn't our fault, we all bought into the seven or eight AFF jumps and hello limbo land for students. And a student is anyone without an "A" license and it seems like we are shirking that duty. We need to remember this is a sport and not a business. I read Capitol Commentary in PARACHUTIST and feel like I've been to a board meeting . . . and need a drink. NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #29 August 3, 2005 Quote Is the argument that coaches should be allowed to dispatch students as soon as they're on clear & pulls instead of waiting until they've demonstrated an ability to control themselves in freefall? I think I'd prefer that the current design of the program be followed, i.e. people get their coach ratings, do a bunch of coach jumps (which will invariably teach them some of the bad things students can do), then get an Instructor rating with that experience under their belt, then let the newer students really scare the hell out of them. I know we used to allow someone with a hundred jumps to JM first freefall students, but the bar has been raised and I don't have a problem with it. Blues, Dave Ok, a few inaccuracies here… This one is nitpicking, but my waiver allows Coaches to work with students only after the H&P. You say we formally let Jumpmasters work with freefall students, where I came form Jump Masters were allowed to do absolutely everything short of teaching the FJC. They thought with no supervision form jump 1 on, and were allowed to dispatch students starting at jump #1. I don’t know what your definition of “a bunch” is, but at a little Midwest DZ where we have less than 50 students take the FJC a year, and less than five get to the point where a Coach would be allowed to work with them it would take 10 years to get “a bunch” of student jumps in under my definition. Ok, so you’re an IAD Instructor and your students goes unstable in freefall on a 30 second delay. Explain what an Instructor can (is allowed to) do for that student that a Coach can not, please! Read the proficiency cards for both a Coach and an IAD/SL instructor; fill me in on where an Instructor is required to perform any freefall skills above that of the Coach. Now I’ll be the first to admit that a Coach with “a bunch” of student training jumps will have far better free fall skills, but again we go back to the 10 year thing. Chasing, and dodging a student is excellent freefall skill building. Where USPA turns the Coach lose with students is in my estimation where it gets a little scary. “Ok, I’m going to lay a base and you’re going to swoop down and dock on me”, you damn sure better be able to get the hell out of the way of these students! MartinExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #30 August 3, 2005 Quote You say we formally let Jumpmasters work with freefall students, where I came form Jump Masters were allowed to do absolutely everything short of teaching the FJC. They thought with no supervision form jump 1 on, and were allowed to dispatch students starting at jump #1. I just used the first freefall as an example, it being (in my experience) the scariest to JM. I was a S/L and IAD JM myself and took students from first jump to A-license. That said, I think I know where the disagreement is coming from. I never had a coach rating and am mostly doing AFF progression these days. With that in mind, my students are cleared to jump with coaches at the same time as they are cleared to self-jumpmaster. At one DZ where I work, students are under the supervision of an IAD-I until their 10 second delays, then they're bumped to full altitude and go with an AFF-I for 4 jumps (essentially Levels 4-7), and then they're cleared to jump with coaches (or do solo's). Without offense intended toward any current coaches, I personally am just not comfortable clearing a student of mine to jump with a coach unless I'm also confident that the student will take care of themselves if the coach goes low or whatever. Most of the coaches I know are competent fliers and anxious to be good instructors, but not all. That said, in a pure S/L or IAD system, I wouldn't be dispatching a student on 20 second delays unless I was confident they'd take care of themself. So I guess I could see allowing coaches to jump with those students on a case-by-case basis (i.e. I trust the coach's flying abilities at least to the extent that they won't take the student out) QuoteI don’t know what your definition of “a bunch” is, but at a little Midwest DZ where we have less than 50 students take the FJC a year, and less than five get to the point where a Coach would be allowed to work with them it would take 10 years to get “a bunch” of student jumps in under my definition. I also work at a DZ with numbers similar to those. We started offering AFF last year, but before that we were strictly IAD & S/L (both of which we still offer, but few take us up on it). We used I's until students were cleared to self-jumpmaster. Really, with that low of volume, why do you even need coaches to do those jumps? Not enough I's to handle the load? QuoteOk, so you’re an IAD Instructor and your students goes unstable in freefall on a 30 second delay. Explain what an Instructor can (is allowed to) do for that student that a Coach can not, please! Both are allowed to do the same things. However, being allowed to do something doesn't mean squat if the rating holder is a hundred yards away. The person with more experience jumping with students is more likely to be in the same piece of sky with an unstable student. QuoteRead the proficiency cards for both a Coach and an IAD/SL instructor; fill me in on where an Instructor is required to perform any freefall skills above that of the Coach. Now I’ll be the first to admit that a Coach with “a bunch” of student training jumps will have far better free fall skills, but again we go back to the 10 year thing. Chasing, and dodging a student is excellent freefall skill building. Where USPA turns the Coach lose with students is in my estimation where it gets a little scary. “Ok, I’m going to lay a base and you’re going to swoop down and dock on me”, you damn sure better be able to get the hell out of the way of these students! You seem to agree that the one with more student jumps will be better at flying with students. Whether these jumps were picked up under a coach rating or an I rating, they build experience. If you don't trust your coaches to be able to dodge a meat missile coming straight at them from distance, why would you trust them to jump with a meat missile that can't yet fall in a straight line? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
