Do you teach how to spot?

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

I'm just curious if anyone really teaches it. If so, what size dz, plane (GPS?), student program, student canopies, and when you start to teach it (maybe even how you teach it).

I'm not even sure if the USPA has it in the new program since I never went thru it. I know that my AFP instructors started teaching me about my third or fourth jump (which may have changed in the last six years).

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Samurai136 0]

Quick and Dirty Spotting

Step 1: Calculate the spot.

Which way is the wind blowing? If you want the wind to blow you back to the landing area, take your spot upwind. The distance for the spot is related to the strength of the wind.

Step 2: Spotting.

a. Look Straight Down. The simple way is to place you head over a rivet on the doorframe (looking straight down at it). Lean your head out the door a few inches maintaining your gaze at the rivet and then re-focus on the ground.
b. Use lengths of known landmarks to judge when you are over the spot. i.e. the run-way is 1/2 mile long therefore...
c. For larger aircraft with multiple groups "the ideal" spot is for the middle group exiting the aircraft.


Advanced spotting when the uppers are strong and 90 to 180 degrees off the landing wind direction requires understanding vectors and geometry. Who knows what a vector is?

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[teason 0]

For judging the actual spot, I believe looking down is only a small part of the equation. Looking down can give incredibly inaccurate results because the plane may be crabbing or banking.

I find the best way to find the spot for exit is to look on the horizon and follow a line down. Then pick another point 90 degrees from the first and follow the line down. This can be really easy if you live on the prairies where the roads make perfect 1 mile grids.

If you use this technique, you can spot from the back of a 182 with a student strapped to you, you won't have to stick your head out the door.
You'll also be able to spot with the door closed (perfect for those -20c days at altitude) and even spot while out on the strut. (try it, the first time you do, you'll think you've drifted from the spot.

I know pilots who used to mess with spotters by wagling the wings with changing the flightline. The spotters often thought they had moved to far when in reality, they hadn't moved at all.

Oh, and a word about "5 degrees left", If you give that call and jump out 30 secs later, you have move the spot over about 200 ft. Unless you are jumping accuacy with a T10, 200 feet is not crucial and if it is, your spot needs a hell of a lot more than 5 degrees. I only use small degree changes if there is a cross wind and I'm using a 90 degree jump run to avoid taking students over obstacles.

I guess to answer the origional question, yes, I do teach it and it's a science!

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[AFFI 0]

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Who knows what a vector is?

A container made by the Relative Workshop???

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AggieDave 6]

YES!!!!

Then again this is a 182 DZ that doesn't use a GPS. The DZO has a GPS that we can and have used before, but whats the point. Its easier to spot by hand with a 182. Hell, you can even get the spot close by just looking at the landmarks around the DZ from the back of the plane through a window.

It all starts with the flight planner that every single student fills out for every single jump. It has them write down the uppers and average them for the "rough estimate" of the spot, which works most of the time and they mark on the back of the worksheet on the areal photograph on every flight planner where their exit point should be, where their opening point should be, what their holding area is and their landing patter. The instructor or coach inspects the workshee to see if it is correct for the winds and advises as needed. By the 3rd or 4th jump the student has their head out the door looking for A/C, cloud clearance issues and the correct spot over the ground. By their 10th jumps they're spotting for themselves and their coach (with the coach keeping an eye out just in case).

We start the flight planner process with the very first working tandem (Cat A tandem), although kinda watered down until they take their transition course after their Cat B tandem.


Even when we have a turbine in, the student is spotting, usually we'll fly a special pass at 5k to have the student in the door and spotting. Telling the instructor or coach when they would exit. Then the student goes back to where they should be for exit order and the load climbs to the proper altitude and exits normally.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

I have a reason for asking this. I was thinking about low turns that result from people landing out. A good portion of those last minute turns into a tiny backyard seem to happen because they tried for too long to make it back the DZ. My thought is some of those could have been prevented if they just checked the spot. I do realize that proper canopy instruction including flat/braked turns would help as well....but we could save that for another thread....that isn't where my focus is at the moment.

We are looking at possible wingloading BSRs to help prevent canopy injuries, wouldn't it make sense to install good spotting skills to avoid a few more of those?

Thus I was wondering if it is still taught. If you are an instructor and don't teach it why is that?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[NSEMN8R 0]

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For judging the actual spot, I believe looking down is only a small part of the equation. Looking down can give incredibly inaccurate results because the plane may be crabbing or banking.

I find the best way to find the spot for exit is to look on the horizon and follow a line down. Then pick another point 90 degrees from the first and follow the line down.

I think I can spot ok by looking down, but this sounds interesting. I don't think I get it though.
Could you explain it again?

Being able to spot with the door closed could come in handy in MI.

[bodypilot1 0]

These days most DZ's have GPS and dont teach much in the way of spotting, as we did years ago.

Mostly bigger DZ's have the pilots do the spotting with the GPS, and all that is required by the jumpers is to stick their heads out the door and look for traffic.

Some smaller DZ's that let the jumpers spot, having them give heading corrections to the pilot.

I always thought it was a fun thing to do and wish more jumpers had the chance to learn it.



Keepin' it safe!
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[PhreeZone 20]

If you give a 5 left and jump 30 seconds later the plane (182 at 80 knots) you have travled 4050 feet forward and my my math about 353 feet left. Make it a larger plane thats fast (Otter at 90 knots and Casa at 100 knots) puts you 397 feet left with a forward distance of 4557 feet or 441 feet left and forward 5060 feet. Those numbers are just for the first group out. Lengthen the spot for later groups in the Casa and you are getting to 500-600 feet left.

450 feet is more then enough distance to keep a lot of people from having get-home-itis. I get looked at when I call 5 lefts in a 182 but I'd rather call it and put me so I don't need those 350 feet rather then exit where the pilot wants me to and have to land out.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Reginald 0]

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wouldn't it make sense to install good spotting skills to avoid a few more of those?

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I agree with this. I jump at a large turbine DZ with world class pilots that spot very accurately using GPS. Even with that said I stick my head out the door when possible and check the spot myself. I’m inside center on my 4-way team and when doing 4 way I literally can’t spot so I rely on the video guy and OC to do it. I see FAR too many people simply jump when the green light is on though. Many of them don’t even pretend to look out the door. I know for a fact that all of them have been trained to spot though.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

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[livendive 8]

Of course. We don't have a GPS in either of our airplanes, and I'm also a TM. At some point in time, the students I'm teaching today will be spotting a load that I'm getting out last on.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[ripcords 0]

On our cessna dz, we begin teaching spotting starting on the first nontandem jump. It is a gradual progression, starting with looking and calling the cut, to eventually being able plan the spot, brief the pilot and direct the pilot to that spot on jump run.

[stratostar 5]

YES and for the hard to learn it students, we just give them rounds till they learn, they'll get good at spotting or walking.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Ron 10]

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I'm just curious if anyone really teaches it. If so, what size dz, plane (GPS?), student program, student canopies, and when you start to teach it (maybe even how you teach it).

Yes I teach spotting. I take some folks to a Cessna DZ and give them a class and let them take turns spotting.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[teason 0]

I think I have to respectfully disagree, 450 - 600 ft is about 20 houses. Think about how small that distance looks from 2500'. It's 1/10 of a miles or less.

The concept is this; lets say a canopy can glide about 1 1/2 miles (about a 3:1 glide ratio at 2500") from opening altitude. That would mean that even though your spot should be over top, you could open up in an area with a radius that is 1 1/2 miles from the spot. That's a 3 mile diameter, an area of over 7 square miles.
Your spot could be off as much as 7500+ feet!
That's why I view 400-600 feet as being insignificant.
I'll concede it would make a difference in a large, fast moving aircraft where to spot has you deep in a quadrant due to obstacles. The old days of round would have made the area even smaller and fine tuning would have been key, but most times I see a 5 degree correction, it happens in a 182, the spotter jumps with 15 to 20 secs of the call.

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I'd rather call it and put me so I don't need those 350 feet rather then exit where the pilot wants me to and have to land out.

This is why I think 5 degrees is inadequate. If 350' is the difference between making it and walking, it means that you are a mile or more away from the spot. At that point 5 degrees isn't enough. At that point, you need at least 45 left for the perfect spot.

I've got a feeling I may have to explain this better, later. I need my training diagrams.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[teason 0]

I usually show jumpers this technique while in the plane so it's quite hard without a visual reference.

The first step in teaching this technique is to get the student on a jump run and get him to exit at a certain point. (I find straight roads work the best) I have them look on the horizon 90 degrees to the flight of the aircraft and have them draw an imaginary line downward. (that's why a long straight road works so well)
Once that technique is mastered, the student learns to pick two points 90 degrees to each other. It can be the jump run and another at 90 degrees to the flight line or two points 45 degrees to the flightline.

Since teaching this, I have found that spotters not only have more accuate spots but also are quicker to pick up on drift the aircraft may be experiencing and changing winds while climbing to altitude. I've even seen spot corrections made from the strut (usually to new pilots who let the drag bank the plane right)

Tim

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[PhreeZone 20]

A glide ratio is great but lets face it, if I hop out short into the wind I'm not making it back. A true spotting diagram is an oval with the ideal spot just inside the near end of the oval and the further away you get the narrower the spotting coriador is. The further away you are off the wind line the more crabbing you are going to have to do to make it back to the traget which means that eliminates from your forward speed.

I have jumped a plenty of DZ's where the landing area is less then 500 feet across in one direction. I used to jump at one airport where the landing area was about 2500 feet long, but less then 200 wide. Most of it was unusable and landing off in one diretion was a surefire way to get arrested for trespassing.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[JohnMitchell 16]

The small amount of correction you get with a 5 degree turn and 10 seconds of flight is not much. I did once hear an experienced jump pilot tell a new pilot "If they say 5 left, give them 10. If they say 10 left, give them 20." So you may be getting more correction than you know. I usually don't call for anything less than a 10. Also, the earlier the correction, the more difference it makes. (I know, Duh)

It's been a while since I've had to call for a correction, since GPS and the really experienced pilots at our DZ. But that little correction you say doesn't matter, well, I like to say that I'm spotting not for the jumper, but for the freebag. There's a lot of tall trees in the Northwest to hang your stuff up in if you have to cut away.

[riggerrob 643]

I've even seen spot corrections made from the strut (usually to new pilots who let the drag bank the plane right)

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That is largely a waste of time as the airplane will not cover enough ground - in the 2 seconds between the signal to the pilot and when the jumper lets go - to make any difference.

This technique makes as much sense as the alibi that you missed the DZ because you tracked the wrong way at break-off."
Hah!
Hah!
If the spot was that bad, you were never going to make it back.
It is also rather arrogant to believe that the average belly-flyer can track far enough to get out of this own way!
Hah!
Hah!
You can cover more ground in 20 seconds under canopy than you can in an entire minute of freefall tracking.

[riggerrob 643]

In Pitt Meadows, we start teaching spotting during the first jump.
We believe in a gradual method that starts with having the student hang their head out the door on jump run.
Next we teach them to look straight down and remember a landmark pointed out by the instructor.
Next we start teaching them how to predict wind aloft, followed by deciding when to climb out, followed by teaching them how to steer the plane left or right, followed by etiquette lessons about how to spot for multiple groups exiting on the same pass.
Finally, we teach them the folly of allowing Bob to spot.
Hee!
Hee!

[teason 0]

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I've even seen spot corrections made from the strut (usually to new pilots who let the drag bank the plane right)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That is largely a waste of time

I agree, my point was more one of awareness than anything else, after all I had previously mentioned just what you said, a small correction secs before exit is will only get you a couple more feet.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[teason 0]

Think More of a cone and if a WDI was dropped in the centre, it would hit the peas. The lower you are, the smaller the area of the top of the cone is. The higher you are, the larger it is.
I judge where to let out jumpers based on where a round (or freebag) lands. Sometimes that puts us to the outside quadrant. If you have a fast moving plane with lots of jumpers and you are deep to the side of the quadrant, then yes getting every extra foot would be critical, but seeing that you are more likely to spot from a bug smasher than an otter, a 5 degree correction isn't going to make the difference between making it and not. If it does, then you needed more than 5 degrees.

I guess it's just perspective, I teach at a 182 DZ.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[bch7773 0]

yeah i teach how to spot. we do S/L outta a c182

MB 3528, RB 1182

[JohnMitchell 16]

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yeah i teach how to spot. we do S/L outta a c182

That's fun. You get to spot at least 3 times on every load. I've done a lot of those. I spot pretty well.

[AndyAnderson 0]

Read the requirements on the "A" license card, If you can not meet the requirements do not sign the card.

Even if you instruct at a big DZ you can let the student spot, give corrections and exit other wise you are robbing the student of an ability and forging the proficiency card. Looking out the door on a jump run just does not cut the mustard.

If the DZ will not do it properly then they shuold not issue any licenses!

I am dissapointed by D license holders who have never really spotted a jump run.

Andy.