Tandem exits from C-182

[Oeystein 0]

Im doing lots of tandems from a C-182 and would like to see videomaterial from others on climbing out and/or exiting that specific airplane.

Is there anyone out there?

[StevePhelps 0]

I have some on my website.

As the vidiot sometimes I climb out on the step as the TM dives the door - other times I float as the TM leaves from a "sitting" position.

[riggerrob 643]

I suppose that I should post some of my hand-cam footage.

Over the years I have tried all the different exits form Cessna 182s, however, for the last 5 years I have concentrated on "sitting" exits.
I sit with my back to the instrument panel and put my left foot on the wheel.
I tell my students to put both feet on the step and crouch down, with their ass on their heels. Then I tell them to put their hands on their chests and lean their heads back.
The less a student "helps" me, the quicker and easier the exit.

Then I put my right foot near the back corner of the door and lean out until the student is balanced on the step.

Then I turn to the photographer and yell "Ready, Set, Go!"

[StevePhelps 0]

That's the method (sitting) Greg Gerondale uses at SDA. Another unnamed TM climbs out on the step like an AFF student. Mel Tilley dives the door.

[AggieDave 6]

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...climbs out on the step like an AFF student.

Remember something, though, some manufactures are strongly against this. RWS will yank your rating for doing that...then again, since the USPA is taking over I guess it ends up in a "grey" area of who controls ultimately controls the rating and if RWS yanks your rating if you're still rated due to the USPA...anyways.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[StevePhelps 0]

Not reccommending it ... I'm just a vidot. Simply stating what one does.

On another note ... Dave, lose the avatar!

[AggieDave 6]

Other manufactures don't care and it will give you a stable exit (as long as you don't bounce your student off the step of course).

I prefer diving out the door from my knees with my student having their feet on the step. Works like a champ, its not hard to do and it is stable.
That and its "quick and dirty" when it comes to asshat students. You don't even have to try to cordinate anything, get their feet in the wind on the step or not and you can launch well past the step in to the relative wind.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[matthewcline 0]

Dave,

Is this some thing new? The waiver tape used to show Bill doing that exact exit (unless I am not correct in the exut being discussed)

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[AggieDave 6]

The waiver tape doesn't have a 182 exit, possibly you mean the course material for your rating?

The course director was supposed to stop the tape there and say "don't do this!"

The material in the video is EXTREMELY outdated and RWS won't update it beyond giving a notebook to the course directors telling them what to say "this is wrong and outdated" to the canidates.

Pretty much every video involving tandems from RWS is extremely outdated with outdated techniques, BUT RWS won't update the videos citing cost instead of simply changing the videos for the betterment of all involved.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[riggerrob 643]

The first text book from RWS showed that antiquated poised exit from a Cessna.
The last time I tried it, my student tried to stand up on the step, jammed me into the underside of the wing and bent a reserve pin!
Scary!

[AggieDave 6]

It still shows that, BUT now the course director is supposed to stop and say "don't do that."

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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On another note ... Dave, lose the avatar!

Uh,.. ya! What were you thinking?

[matthewcline 0]

I went back and looked at the older waiver tape (#5 i think) and it does have a "aff" style exit in it I do not have new waiver tape to compare right now.

My examinor didn't metin any thing there during the Instructor course (july '99) additionally 2 years ago when I went through the RWS examinor course I do not remember being told not to do that but do remember handle checks being stressed a lot. but it is probably my fualt as and don't remeber as I was told I was heading over seas during the class and was trying to "multi taks" and do more than 1 thing at a time.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[skydiveoc 0]

Im in agreement with riggerob. Seated, back to the wind works best for me with a backloop recovery. Since Ive been doing this, the only time ive been taken for a ride is when I tried the standard dive out!

It can be tough with really big guys though, so with them I try a lazy front roll out, stall it 1/2 way around in the sit then back loop it back over. Since I do this one with the bigger ones, I never get stuck on my back or side. The back loop recovery has so much power you almost always have a belly to earth window for recovery. This one's great gfor hand camers too!

[bclark 0]

Lots of different ways to do it, every Tandem I insists their way is best. In my opinion, the best way is to start out kneeling, facing the front whether you are in the front or back. Open the door and spot. Place your right foot on the strut above the step. Place your students right foot on the step. Make slightly more than a 90 degree turn so you are facing out the door a little toward the tail. (Yes it is a tight squeeze turning past the pilot's chair with a rig on, a good way to do it is to keep your spine vertical rather than crouching over your knee.) Keep your student sitting on their left foot in the door. Have them hold on to their harness and get down low (chest on their right knee). Ready set go and pivot over your right foot out the door. I like this because you only have to get your's and your student's right foot out the door, and them low enough to exit cleanly. Very little fuss.

I have done the back to dash sitting exits, but I don't like them because it is very hard to check your drogue when it is jammed up next to the fuel selector. It is also frequently difficult to get your students feet past the rear of the doorframe. I also don't like the possibility of banging the back of my rig around on the instrument panel. During the dirt dive on the ground I familiarize my student with the airplane, and have them sit next to the pilot facing forward. I sit behind them facing forward. I instruct them not to push on the rudder pedals or grab the pilot or controls. When it is time to hook up, I have them grab the leading edge of the doorframe and I help them up from behind. Then I get up behind them and hook up kneeling. I get a good hookup that way, my rig is not getting banged around, and it is easy to spot and climb out.

[riggerrob 643]

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Lots of different ways to do it, every Tandem I insists their way is best. In my opinion, the best way is to start out kneeling, facing the front whether you are in the front or back. Open the door and spot. Place your right foot on the strut above the step. Place your students right foot on the step. Make slightly more than a 90 degree turn so you are facing out the door a little toward the tail. (Yes it is a tight squeeze turning past the pilot's chair with a rig on, a good way to do it is to keep your spine vertical rather than crouching over your knee.) Keep your student sitting on their left foot in the door. Have them hold on to their harness and get down low (chest on their right knee). Ready set go and pivot over your right foot out the door. I like this because you only have to get your's and your student's right foot out the door, and them low enough to exit cleanly. Very little fuss.

I have done the back to dash sitting exits, but I don't like them because it is very hard to check your drogue when it is jammed up next to the fuel selector. It is also frequently difficult to get your students feet past the rear of the doorframe. I also don't like the possibility of banging the back of my rig around on the instrument panel. During the dirt dive on the ground I familiarize my student with the airplane, and have them sit next to the pilot facing forward. I sit behind them facing forward. I instruct them not to push on the rudder pedals or grab the pilot or controls. When it is time to hook up, I have them grab the leading edge of the doorframe and I help them up from behind. Then I get up behind them and hook up kneeling. I get a good hookup that way, my rig is not getting banged around, and it is easy to spot and climb out.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes.

I did that exit hundreds of times when I worked at Hinckley, Illinois. Kneeling does make it easier to tighten side straps and check handles.
Unfortunately an old knee injury re-asserted itself, making prolonged kneeling painful.

[riggerrob 643]

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Im in agreement with riggerob. Seated, back to the wind works best for me with a backloop recovery.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I just do a simple dive out, so that I end up belly-to-wind.
By extending my arms overhead and tucking my feet up my butt, I can usually prevent a front-loop.
The only time I get front-looped is when students forget what I told them about kicking me in the a$$.

Why you would want to complicate that exit with loops, etc. is a mystery to me!

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[bclark 0]

I agree, I cannot think of a single reason to do aerobatics on exit. I have heard instructors assert that the extra airspeed following instability gives them more authority. IMHO if you need that extra airspeed you already have problems with your exit technique.

[Liemberg 0]

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if you need that extra airspeed you already have problems with your exit technique.

But you could turn that around just as easely saying that once you end up with 'aerobatics on exit', you need some airspeed to sort things out...

BTW: Sitting with my back towards the prop is my favorite in a C182. I do it on my knees (still good, "knock on wood") and my student/passenger can come sit on my lap, without having to kneel himself.
I tried it sitting on my bum a couple of times but find it almost impossible to get out that way.

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[bclark 0]

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if you need that extra airspeed you already have problems with your exit technique.

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But you could turn that around just as easely saying that once you end up with 'aerobatics on exit', you need some airspeed to sort things out...

Your are right, perhaps I should have stated that more clearly. If you feel like you need to do INTENTIONAL aerobatics on exit.......etc.

Oh, your idea of kneeling back to dash also sounds like a good way to go. I have never tried that. I am assuming you sit most of the way to altitude, then get up on your knees to hookup?

Here's another one. I have been to DZ's where when there is only one tandem pair on the airplane, the Tandem will sit next to the door and make the videographer climb over them to exit. The only reason I can think of to do this is so the Tandem doesn't have as far to move to the door.

I personally take the back of the plane which gives me more room to hook up, and give the responsibility for the door and spotting to my videographer. Also I think in an aircraft emergency, it would be much easier to exit the aircraft without having to climb over a tandem.

Any thoughts on this. I am curious as to what is common practice at other DZ's.

BTW Thinking about all this crap sure make me glad we have 3 Otters!

[AggieDave 6]

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Oh, your idea of kneeling back to dash also sounds like a good way to go. I have never tried that. I am assuming you sit most of the way to altitude, then get up on your knees to hookup?

I'm assuming that he's in a wide body 182. An old narrow body 182 with the flap handle on the floor is a really bad spot to be in with a tandem rig. It interfers with the flap handle, the rig doesn't actually fit there and its easy to wedge the drogue under the flap handle.

Atleast in my experience that's my take. A few years ago I got a PC of our large 300sq ft student rig stuck under the flap handle on a narrow body 182. That memory makes me very weary for doing tandems from here.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Liemberg 0]

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I am assuming you sit most of the way to altitude, then get up on your knees to hookup?

I 'sort of' lie down and take a little nap... (meaning yes...)

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the Tandem will sit next to the door and make the videographer climb over them to exit.

Sounds like a recipe to make things MORE complicated...
Any one that I trust to video me and my pax, I also trust to find the right spot...Moving backwards to the door is easy, we do it all the time if we do 2 tandems without video from the C182.

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BTW Thinking about all this crap sure make me glad we have 3 Otters!

Spoiled brat!

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[skydog 2]

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***I tried it sitting on my bum a couple of times but find it almost impossible to get out that way.

I jump from a 172 and the technique used here I have never seen elsewhere in the world.

The tandem pair sit facing the prop for the ride to altitude. On exit the pair are seated in the door. I have my left arm high on the strut, my left leg on the step and my right leg dangles over the right edge of the step.

On my signal the pilot gives a slight "push over" giving a bit of -G, and for a split second we are lifted up off the step. I then pivot round my left arm straight into the relative wind.

It takes hardly any effort no matter the size of the student. It sounds slightly bizarre but works every time. It is by far the easiest I have done in terms of getting out of the aircraft and into the air.

Bryn

Journey not destination.....

[Andrewwhyte 1]

We use narrow body 182s in Pitt Meadows and use the seated exit exclusively. If there is one tandem in the plane they sit behind the pilot as you would think. If there are two tanda we both sit facing the tail. As Rob Warner is a lot bigger than me he sits behind the pilot with the larger student. I sit in the J/M seat with the smaller of the two (you are correct, I do like this arrangement). In order to give my legs the width they need to go around the student Rob moves a bit aft and I lay my right knee between his rig and the pilots seat. Because there is no room in my slot, I tighten my laterals before the door is closed. I simply hook up the shoulder snaps at altitude and I am ready. Some other TMs I know who exit from this position prefer to tighten up after the door is open. I am not big on this as it leads to stuff flapping in freefall.
There are three issues to think about with this method:
1. My hook-up sequence is different for a 182 than it is for other a/c. This is a very real problem and should not be ignored. When I am sitting in the plane with my laterals tight it feels like I am ready to go. The way I deal with this is I do my hook-up sequence in order every time with position checks on the quick-snaps when I normally would be connecting them. I follow this up with a four snap check just before I put on my goggles. This I do whether sitting on the floor of the 182 (special hook-up sequence), the floor of the 205 (standard sequence), or on the bench of the King Air (standard sequence).
2. I am attatched to my student during take-off; in the event of a failed take-off (fire?) I am encumbered. I am acutely aware of this as we roll. I am also aware that these are both quick-eject snaps. I consider this a very low risk issue.
3. Putting Rob and the larger student in the tail and then moving them further back to make room for my knee does make the a/c ass heavy. I could see this being less than ideal some places. At our DZ however we are in a moderate climate (we call 90 F a really hot day), we are at 7ft above sea level, we have lots of paved runway and I know our aircraft are properly maintained. There are times when we take the 205 just because the students are too big, but that usually has to do with room rather than total weight. Besides the pilot would rather have a heavy tail than have Mr. bull in a china shop (that would be Rob) bashing into her and her controls all the way up.
The advantages of this system are that it is much easier on the TM's knees and back, and that there is much less chance of interfering with the a/c during flight. I sit down and the next time I move is when the door is open.
As far as Dave's comment about hitting the door latch, I find that not to be an issue. The key is to get the student's feet on the step for a pivot, and then push through the student rather than over them. Remember when you are facing the tail your motion is to unhook you rather than to hook you like the old poised exit style so very rightly banned by Mr. Booth.

[skydiveoc 0]

Ive tried Andrewwhyte's technique and I though I was the only one to try this! Glad to see it works for you. It does suck with biggies. Also, doesnt work well with Vectors for me. We have Sigmas and Strongs. The Strongs are more narrow, fit better, and attach higher up at the lowers (disadvantage for student control though). I have trouble getting the Sigma tight down low with this technique.

It is definitely better on the knees and back. Makes a diff when you're on tandem number 15 of the day and the pilot has tp make repeated go arounds.

It is also hard to spot with the door closed.