Re-evaluation: 2 out

[MarkM 0]

I've always been taught that a side by side 2 out was something you land if it was stable, but with the recent downplanes I'm wondering if the risers/lines aren't tangled and it looks like your main would clear, do you cut it away?
What's the bigger risk, your main fouling your reserve or it suddenly downplaning when you get close to landing?
Any thoughts, opinions?

[billvon 3,111]

>I've always been taught that a side by side 2 out was something you land if it was stable, but with the recent
>downplanes I'm wondering if the risers/lines aren't tangled and it looks like your main would clear, do you cut it away?
I think you answered your own question. Keep a side-by-side, chop a downplane. Note that chopping a downplane is essentially going from two inflated canopies to one, so you need less altitude to accomplish it. It's similar to the old canopy transfer procedure (not recommended BTW.)
If you _do_ want to chop the main on a side-by-side, I would recommend initiating a downplane to get some separation. (You don't have to get a true, 180 degree opposite downplane, just force some separation.) A hard rear riser turn can accomplish this. If you want to try this, some CRW experience is invaluable.
>What's the bigger risk, your main fouling your reserve or it suddenly downplaning when you get close to landing?
I think it's your main fouling your reserve. If you have a side-by-side or a biplane, and they stay that way, you can land it. If the main separates significantly, you can always chop it. The place this can kill you is in the last 100 feet, so it's a pretty good bet that if the canopies behave themselves for the first, say, 1000 feet, they will behave themselves in the last 100. If they misbehave at 500 feet you have the option to chop. This gives you the most options.
If you do decide to chop your main right away, and it entangles with your reserve, end of story. It's difficult to recover from that.
-bill von

[freeflir29 0]

Disclaimer: I don't know anything about the recent incidents.
However, I did fly two canopies once. I have watched several people land two canopies. The biggest thing I see is people trying to be too rough and steer all over the place. Be gentle.....keep the two canopies together and you will be fine. Don't unstow the brakes on either canopy!!!! Steer with the risers only if you have to. Otherwise treat it like a T-10 jump and just go along for the ride!
"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[MarkM 0]

Alright, so basically keep it real gentle when I start getting low and maybe even keep one hand on the cutaway handle in case things go bad.
Don't take away an option up high(this looks like something that will land) if I can still take it away with the same risks down low(whoops, just downplaned, cut!).
Thanks guys.

[freeflir29 0]

Check and make sure the cutaway handle is accessable. Other than that keep your hands on the main risers. When I flew mine the main was in the front which was nice. Fly the more dominant canopy (usually the main) and keep yourself out of trouble. The things shouldn't just "Go into a downplane" all by themselves. Keep your eye on them all the way to the ground. I didn't stop looking at them until I was about 10-15 Ft off the ground. I had my usual thought..."I can fall from here and live..." LOL
"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[diverdriver 7]

Clay, MOST excellent advice. That is exactly what you do with a side by side. I guess you DO know something. Don't unstow the toggles on either canopy. Steer with the dominant canopy on rear riser and SMALL inputs only. Pick the biggest dang field you can find and let it fly. PLF.
Sorry Clay, had to say it all again. I think it's worth repeating.
Chris Schindler
D-19012
ATP/CFII
www.DiverDriver.com

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

If I've got something above my head and it works, it's staying there.
You shouldn't put a knife in the toaster - but you're an adult now !!!

[AndyMan 7]

I jump a combinations of canopies that I suspect will not handle two out nicely because my main is much smaller then my reserve. (150/210)
Should I ever find myself with two out, given suficient altitude, my plan is to initiate a downplane, then chop the main.
If the two canopies are playing togeather nicely, I might consider leaving them both out if there's a big in front of me. I would be very hesitant about doing any turns in this configuration.
My question though, is given an downplane with elipticals loaded at 1.5, what kind of pull force might I expect? How much preasure do the opposing canopies put on the cuttaway system?
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[freeflir29 0]

"If I've got something above my head and it works, it's staying there."
That was my very first thought (After a few curse words) that came to mind.
"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[freeflir29 0]

"I suspect will not handle two out nicely because my main is much smaller then my reserve. (150/210)"
This is merely a half assed semi educated guess but I'm willing to bet that they will fly together. It may take holding the 150 back a little bit but with some input I think you could ride both of them safely. Just use the rear risers to keep the two canopies together. It's better than getting into a downplane with multiple variations on the outcome.....
"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Another reason why my main is the same size as my reserve (both 170's)
You shouldn't put a knife in the toaster - but you're an adult now !!!

[skycat 0]

actually it isn't an uneducated guess.....I've seen what can happen when a much larger reserve and a smaller main are out at the same time playing together.
from my post in gear and rigging
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Last year at couch I actually saw where the large reserve with a small main was a problem. I don't know the sizes of the canopies, but the girl had 2 out, and it looked like a 150 reserve and about a 100 main. Give or take the sizes could have been bigger or smaller Well the whole time I was watching it the tiny main was dancing around the reserve, not really flying at all, just jumping and twisting around. At about 20-30 ft (I couldn't quite tell from my angle) the main decided it was done playing nice and wrapped it self around the reserve which up until this time was flying just fine, strait and level. She ended up with a main reserve entanglement and a ride in a ambulance pretty badly messed up.
--------------------------------------------------------
She opted to stay with 2 out and due to the large difference in sizes of the canopys it didn't work out so well.

[freeflir29 0]

I have to ask though....was she actively flying the canopies or just along for the ride?
"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[diverdriver 7]

Yah, Kelli, was she trying to flare? Suddenly changing how they were flying together at 20-30 feet sounds, at the surface, that this jumper did something that caused the wrap or entanglement. Is that a possibility? Advice on two canopies out is that you fly both with brakes STOWED and NO flare. PLF. More info would be appreciated.
Chris Schindler
D-19012
ATP/CFII
www.DiverDriver.com

[freeflir29 0]

"fly both with brakes STOWED and NO flare"
No doubt....I unstowed the brakes on the main during mine. Scary couple of seconds as it started to run away from the reserve. Ended up holding it in half brakes to keep them together anyway. Might as well have left them stowed.
"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[skycat 0]

From what I could tell a little of both, flying the reserve but only to keep it heading strait.
The problem was that the main was out flying the reserve it was obvious everyone could see that. It would surge ahead, collapse, re-inflate, do it over again. So you are saying if she would have been hanging on the rear risers trying to slow the canopy down everything would have been ok???? Maybe, maybe not.
Most people when they have that big of a canopy difference also have a main that is elliptical. Ellipticals can act very unpredictable when recovering from a stall.
So her reserve was flying at or pretty close to the stall point (especially since the brakes were probably stowed) of the main which meant that canopy was having trouble keeping pressurized. Think about how your PD190 acted when you used to fly around at the stall point to learn your canopy. Now increase your wing loading and change it to a stiletto. Now that it is stalled let the toggles back up quickly....YIKES!! That is pretty much what was happening.
Now if you are flying two squares, I will agree that they would probably be easier to control and keep them flying nice.
She was lucky though, it didn't happen higher where she wouldn't have survived the fall. She was unlucky cause she froze/panicked/made a bad decision up high and chose to stay in that configuration.
This really is one of those things that you have to decide on based on your gear, I'm perfectly fine with both my crossfire 104 and my PD 113 main both being out as long as they seem to be playing nice. My friend Cyndi just got a smaller rig and reserve cause she knew her PD143 would not play nice with her stiletto 97. There are also people who choose to have large reserves with tiny mains, which is why Mirage has 2 containers made exactly for that. A lot of decisions such as what will I do if this happens or that happens needs to be made on the ground, cause adrenaline really can mess with our thought processes. More than likely when that girl got her smaller main she never re-evaluated her procedures on what she would do, she just went with what she was probably taught as a student.

[freeflir29 0]

Purely speculation but I wonder if it would have flown better had she unstowed the reserve brakes and then held the main in half brakes. Might have gotten the speed to something the main would have been happier with. Guess no one will know unless they try it.....TEST PILOT?????
"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[skycat 0]

I'm puting my money on hitting turbulance since it was on the downwind side of the campground. The wind wasn't high, since it was sunset load, but there was still a breeze, this was Iowa after all.