Another exit order question

[mattb 0]

Yes - I am currently unemployed which may explain my random deep thoughts.
That being said -
Where to "hybrid" divers fit into the exit order? I don't mean experienced RW/freefly groups but the group of 2-4 whose dive plan is "go out linked in a sit, flip on our bellies when we break apart". On a couple occassions last year I exited after other freefliers who ended up on the belly by 10,000 feet and watched as I fell below them. Horizontal separation was not an issue, but falling past people is still somewhat unsettling.
Thoughts?

[billvon 3,120]

>Where to "hybrid" divers fit into the exit order?
I'd put them in freefly vs RW depending on their fall rate. Light people who sit for a short time, then belly out, are RW. Heavy guys who are head down 75% of the time go with freeflyers.
>Horizontal separation was not an issue, but falling past people is still somewhat unsettling.
That's what happens with RW-out-first, which seems to be the most common exit order at US DZ's.
-bill von

[freeflir29 0]

"falling past people is still somewhat unsettling"
I love that...I had many solos during my first 100 free fly jumps. I used to love watching people turn points as I rocketed past them in a sit or HD. Lets you know just how fast you are going! Plus...it's kind of neat to be under a full canopy and watch the group that left before and after you open...."I only have a C license, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[diverdriver 7]

Just remember that horizontal seperation is what is going to save your life.
I would put Hybrid dives where sit flyers go. If a dive is totally sit then it won't fall as fast as head downers so it will actually have a little more drift. Since a hybrid dive usually involves more than the usual 2-3 way train then it will probably be out first in the freaks order and thus keeps seperation nicely anyway. Does that work for you?
Chris

[apoil 0]

a lot of people seem to have accepted the doctrine that RW fliers will drift more.
The main reason being that they are in the wind longer.
From my experience it's about 10 maybe 15 seconds longer.
Vertical fliers however are presenting a significantly greater surface area to horizontal winds a loft and may actually drift further or just as much.
Let the controversy rage on.
At my DZ we've been putting freefliers out first with generally good results.
Anything can work with proper thought and proper communication. Crosswind jump runs are an option as well

[diverdriver 7]

Yes, it can work if you understand how the transition between freaks to flats work. Doing the crosswind jumprun is a great way to do it. But don't count on vertical seperation to get you your safety margin.
Free fliers do not present a larger cross-section to the wind contrary to popular belief. And if they do it's negligable because they are alway spinning or changing their presentation. The driving factor in all the drift is the freefall time. It's physics. And no, your raging debate is not inflamatory. We all need to talk about this so everyone understands what is going on.
Chris Schindler
ATP/CFII
D-19012
www.DiverDriver.com

[apoil 0]

Quote

But don't count on vertical seperation to get you your safety margin

I never did and I never suggested it.

Quote

Free fliers do not present a larger cross-section to the wind contrary to popular belief. And if they do it's negligable because they are alway spinning or changing their presentation.

Why is it that they don't? This is how we move faster and slower, by presenting more or less surface area to the wind. It's the very reason why freeflyers go faster?
"always spinning and changing their presentation?" Have you EVER been on a freefly dive?
I'm willing to accept that this is a specious proposition, but if you are going to dismiss it you'll have to do better than saying in essence "no it doesn't, or if it does it's negligible"
Let's see some of your physics. the differential of 5-15 seconds of drift in most upper winds isn't enough to necessarily change the exit order. The true safety margin is longer time between groups and not struggling to get a full twin otter out in one pass.

[billvon 3,120]

>From my experience it's about 10 maybe 15 seconds longer.
About right. With 60kts of uppers, that's an additional 1000 feet. If the profile is 60kts exit to 0 kts opening, it's 500 feet.
>Vertical fliers however are presenting a significantly greater surface area to horizontal winds a loft and
>may actually drift further or just as much.
Nope. To prove this to yourself, watch a small and a large hot-air balloon launch. The bigger one will not get blown more by the wind. They will both travel at exactly the same speed as long as they're at the same altitude (and therefore in the same wind.)
Skydivers are no different. If you are flying head-down, and the wind at your altitude is blowing at 60kts, you're moving at 60kts. If you're doing RW, and the wind's blowing 60kts, you're moving at 60kts. (Unless of course either group is tracking, which throws everything off.)
>At my DZ we've been putting freefliers out first with generally good results.
There's no problem doing that, but you have to allow a huge amount of time between freeflyers and RW people if you want to do that.
>Anything can work with proper thought and proper communication. Crosswind jump runs are an option as well.
Yeah, we used to do that on all our jumps at Brown - not for separation, but because we were 1/2 mile from the border and couldn't just fly any old direction.
-bill von

[rgoper 0]

**The true safety margin is longer time between groups and not struggling to get a full twin otter out in one pass.**
finally, some words of wisdom! this is what i've been saying since day 1, and have been "shot out of the saddle" a lot of times. it's funny how they don't mind making a second pass for good spots for afp, or aff, tandems, etc...but the rest of us, every man/woman for themselfs i guess. freefliers do move around the sky a lot, when i do head down, i always do a 360 at around 6K to look around and see where everybody is, i generally catch up to the rw formations that have jumped previously, not on top of them, but to my left or right, which essentially slows my head down dive down because of having to lift my chip up to do this, for once i would like to do a head down dive and not have to worry about this, i'm in agreement that freefliers should exit first, reason # 1, no other group is going to fall faster, reason # 2, they generally beat everybody else to deployment altitude anyway. my rant is over. (why are free fliers referred to as "freaks"?) just curious
R.G.

[PhreeZone 20]

If the plane is going to make a second pass for the students, get out then. If you don't like how deep you are call go around, if the pilot won't listen, ride the plane down.... its that simple. If you are the last out... just open high
I've jumped without looking down and had to pull at 5 to make it back before. Its not that big of a deal if you are last out of something like an otter or casa/skyvan to pull a bit higher. Its the price you pay to freefly, think of it that way.
Freefliers out first has been proven to work ONLY if the RWer's give HUGE amounts of delay time, 15-20 seconds seems to be the ideal number on the calculators. Not many people can stand in the door with the green light on for that long with out everyone yelling "GO!, for gods sake GO!"
Belly first 98% of the time.... Vertical seperation is far from ideal... Horizontal is good Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush

[rgoper 0]

**Its the price you pay to freefly, think of it that way.**
good point phree, i never thought of it like that.
R.G.

[weid14 0]

that's exactly the point, you will catch up to a RW group but they will be to the left or right, if an RW group goes after, they could drift over you -- that is a problem. UNLESS they give a much longer delay in teh door. So, to get everyone out (DZ's are a business after all) reasonably on 1 pass, you'd have to get out way short of the DZ if you were getting out first, so take your pick -- it's a walk either way.

[diverdriver 7]

1) I don't struggle to get an otter out on one pass. I do it with a lot of ease actually.
2) Measure yourself crosswise and then across the chest. What is the percent change?
3) I have plenty of freefly jumps and I do fine thanks for asking.
4) My apologies for not giving better physics or "proof". Sometimes I forget not everyone knows me and takes what I say at face value. But I have been doing this for awhile.
Think about doing a two way head down. Now, are you presenting you back to the wind the whole dive? Or did you turn sideways at some point? If you turned then you are in the same relative posistion as a flat flyer. No change in my book. But you can actually over analyze this. You are correct. More time is better. But then there's a point of diminishing returns. You want perfect safety? Don't jump. Otherwise, look at what is going on, set some guidelines, and then adjust for special cases. That's the best you can do in any acivity you do that involves high risk such as skydiving.
Chris

[diverdriver 7]

Quote

i'm in agreement that freefliers should exit first, reason # 1, no other group is going to fall faster, reason # 2, they generally beat everybody else to deployment altitude anyway. my rant is over. (why are free fliers referred to as "freaks"?) just curious

You are counting on vertical seperation if you put freefliers (freaks) our first unless you give TONS of seperation time which most people don't understand. If you tell the whole load the same seperation count this will work with a few adjustments. What if your head down group has a premature deployment? Then an RW group can float over the top and through that canopy.
Many Flat flyers also deploy lower (this is a generalization not intended to slam anyone) 2-3k. I find a lot of freeflyers deploy above 3k. This can cause problems if counting on the vertical seperation.
I don't know, if a guy with blue hair, piercing in every identifiable part of his body, and tumbles intentionally as he goes out the door isn't considered a "freak" I don't know what is.
Relax, I free fly too.
Chris

[rgoper 0]

**I don't know, if a guy with blue hair, piercing in every identifiable part of his body, and tumbles intentionally as he goes out the door isn't considered a "freak" I don't know what is. Relax, I free fly too.**
i know there are many things to consider in exit order, i just always figured the "big ways" always wanted out first so they could get the best spot. i've seen 16 ways go out, 8 ways, 4 ways, etc...do us "freaks" a favor, and turn on the green light about 20 seconds early! (if your not already) they take 30 minutes to get in position, and launch. J/K that freak analogy is funnie!
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[weid14 0]

The pilots I have typically flown with adjust the spot for the group and their climb out speed. Our team (unless we're doing a 10.5 pass) usually does get out a little short (sometimes to short, but we make it back). and I think that is a fairly common practice.

[diverdriver 7]

Just as an aside: during the record in 1998 I was giving 36 seconds between green light and actual launch. The pilot should be timing the climb out as part of where to put them out.
Chris

[apoil 0]

Quote

Freefliers out first has been proven to work ONLY if the RWer's give HUGE amounts of delay time, 15-20 seconds seems to be the ideal number on the calculators. Not many people can stand in the door with the green light on for that long with out everyone yelling "GO!, for gods sake GO!"

depends on the uppers generally. If they are light then the difference doesn't matter as much.
But seriously, when have you seen an RW group take LESS than 15 seconds to do their full climbout and exit count?

[apoil 0]

Quote

You are counting on vertical seperation if you put freefliers (freaks) our first unless you give TONS of seperation time which most people don't understand. If you tell the whole load the same seperation count this will work with a few adjustments.

following the general rule of big to small. After the last freefly group exits, it will be the largest RW group in the door. If they are a 4way or more, they'll generally take plenty of time getting setup.
Other practices for added safety: freefliers tracking perpendicular to the line of flight, and flying their canopies in that direction until the next group opens.

[weid14 0]

in response to:
But seriously, when have you seen an RW group take LESS than 15 seconds to do their full climbout and exit count?
all the time -- our 4way team is in and out of the door ususally in less than 10. now if you're setting up a 20 way... but then again that would be a plane full.

[ltdiver 3]

Nice illustration from Tim Wagner here:
http://www.omniskore.com/freefall_drift2.html
ltdiver
__________________________________________
http://www.discover.net/~ltdiver

[billvon 3,120]

>But seriously, when have you seen an RW group take LESS than 15 seconds to do their full climbout and exit count?
If I'm jumping with other experienced jumpers, time from climb out to exit takes 5-8 seconds for us - not enough time unless you have zero uppers, which is why I often wait a few seconds before beginning our climb out (unless, of course, we're the first group, in which case I take maybe two seconds to check for traffic, then climb out and go)
-bill von

[kallend 2,150]

Concerning climb-out time:
I like Max Meijer's approach - he's a large group RW load organizer at Skydive Chicago. Load the plane in the right order so there's no jockeying for position. When he climbs out (he's always center float), he counts to eight, then ready set go. Eight seconds is plenty of time for even a 16 or 18 way to get itself organized in the door if no-one has to climb over someone else.

[kallend 2,150]

<<http://www.omniskore.com/freefall_drift2.html>>>
You can download the original program from which Tim made this illustration from my web site
http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/

[diverdriver 7]

Here ya go John. I'll make it linkable.
http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/
Chris