fogobo 0 #1 November 28, 2009 1972 - 74 England Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zoobrothertom 5 #2 November 28, 2009 Quote1972 - 74 England and?____________________________________ I'm back in the USA!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #3 November 28, 2009 The meaning of your message is as clear as an obo in fog. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fastphil 0 #4 November 30, 2009 Post round pre square = triangle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #5 November 30, 2009 I do recall the thunder-bow canopy from back in the day. Karna Sunby had one in Missoula. Tom T-bow had one in Kalispell. That was 74 or so..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #6 November 30, 2009 Security had a Thunderbow team. I think Roy Starbird was one of the members. He jumped a T Bow for a while at the Cal Club DZ at Livermore. I thougt it was a mega cool looking canopy, but next to my tired old C9 cheapo, anything was cool. I liked delta winged planes like the F 106 and the B 58. The T Bow had that look, I wonder how the Thunderbow got its name? Anyone know? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,464 #7 November 30, 2009 Hi 377 ( again ), Yup, Roy was one of them; and for the life of me, I cannot remember any of the others. Roy was the 'old guy' on that team. 'Thunderbow' came from the original Crossbow and then updated with some 'thunder.' BTW, the original Crossbow name came about because one weekend John Maggi, who owned Security, had been to a flea market and saw and old crossbow for sale; ergo, the name of their new rig. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WGore 0 #8 December 1, 2009 Bill Smith was the Captain of that team. I don't remember the other guys names either. They took the silver that year (1972) and were the Champions in 1971 as the Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwich Team. They were the first sponsored RW team since the Golden Knights were not a factor in RW back in those days.Curt Curtis' team took the Bronze so there were 2 California teams in 4-way in the top 3.GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimp 1 #9 December 1, 2009 Brent McLarty also, as I remember. Antioch was their home dz. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #10 December 1, 2009 Thnuderbow was really a Lemoigne class (think Para-Commander class) canopy that just happened to be roughly triangular. They were just fancy round canopies with pulled down apexes, lots of drive windows, stablizers that hung below the skirt, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #11 December 1, 2009 Darn. I thought the T Bows were really something special. Go easy on us old timers. Let us keep the memories even if they are based on falsehoods. Next you'll be telling me that Playboy centerfolds were just ordinary girls with this and that pulled up or extended and finished off with an airbrush.377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #12 December 2, 2009 The T-bow canopy looked cool. The rumor was that they openned very reliably, even better than a P.C. Was that really the case?... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mbranch202 1 #13 December 2, 2009 QuoteThe T-bow canopy looked cool. The rumor was that they openned very reliably, even better than a P.C. Was that really the case?... I have about 300 jumps on one, red with gold arrow.. cut away once!Mike Branch NSCSA #7 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim_Hooper 4 #14 December 2, 2009 QuoteThe T-bow canopy looked cool. The rumor was that they openned very reliably, even better than a P.C. Was that really the case?... I made about the same number of jumps on a T-bow as Mike, with a couple of malfunctions - but then, I was a seriously fast trash-packer. (Roger Clark once said something like, "The way you pack, I'm surprised it ever opens!") Went from the T-bow to a Paradactyl, solely for the lower pack volume. Around 300 on that, too. hoop Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dks13827 3 #15 January 10, 2010 dactyl cutaways then ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #16 January 11, 2010 Quote Quote The T-bow canopy looked cool. The rumor was that they openned very reliably, even better than a P.C. Was that really the case?... I made about the same number of jumps on a T-bow as Mike, with a couple of malfunctions - but then, I was a seriously fast trash-packer. (Roger Clark once said something like, "The way you pack, I'm surprised it ever opens!") Went from the T-bow to a Paradactyl, solely for the lower pack volume. Around 300 on that, too. hoop Ha, if you wanted to see pack jobs that would rarely open, you just had to watch Steve Fugleberg pack his PC. I have 13 saves in my riggers log for just him (3 in one day) ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #17 January 11, 2010 Quote Hi 377 ( again ), 'Thunderbow' came from the original Crossbow and then updated with some 'thunder.' BTW, the original Crossbow name came about because one weekend John Maggi, who owned Security, had been to a flea market and saw and old crossbow for sale; ergo, the name of their new rig. JerryBaumchen ............................................................... Jerry, Tell me more about the Crossbow canopy. I wonder if anyone has a picture of one. Back in the early 70's, when I was a newby, a friend who knew even less than I did, bought a canopy that I think was called a crossbow. Being green horns, we thought we were looking at a para-commander. So I told my friend to buy it. We later found out that we had just bought a canopy that wasn't worth a darn. We were told this was a predassessor of the para-commander. I'm not sure what my friend did with it, but he never jumped it. I've always wondered since then, what exactly is a cross bow canopy?..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,464 #18 January 11, 2010 Hi steve, I'll give it a try. Pioneer Parachute Co., sometime in the early '60's, licensed the LeMoigne concept from LeMoigne ( who was a Frenchman who came up with the idea of using a formed panel to direct the air coming out of a round canopy ). Pioneer did some early work, using the LeMoigne principle, for a personnel canopy; however, they were not really putting too much effort in getting it off of the ground. Pioneer did do a demo jump with a Para-Commander at the '63 US Nationals that were held in Issaquah, WA. As this was before my time, I know little of this actual jump; I think they only did one jump. I started in Feb '64 and Pioneer was running some ads for the P/C in PARACHUTIST magazine but the canopy was not available. It is my understanding that this/these early P/C's were being controlled by pulling down on a rear suspension line ( like we did with 1.1's & 1.6's ). About this same time Security was getting into the sport gear business and were working with the Army team & PCA on developing a new rig. Since Pioneer had the license for the LeMoigne principle, Security had to come up with 'something else.' That 'something else' became the CrossBow canopy, or XBO as we called it. Because of the license, Security had to stick with a flat panel canopy; or come up with something radically new. The result was their XBO, which has only flat panels; but they did pull down the apex and add stabilizers ( but only four stabilizers vs the P/C which had five per side ). The XBO had four Derry slots on each side for steering and a number of drive holes in the rear for propulsion. Dan Abbott, who designed the entire XBO system, told me a couple of years ago how he was able to 'copy' the LeMoigne concept yet not copy it. He built the Derry slots with a tape on the radial seam but only a folded edge on the fabric side of the slot. This allowed the edge with just the folded seam to 'stretch' a little bit during flight ala the LeMoigne concept yet be a flat panel during packing. The steering lines on a XBO canopy go from the toggles up to the Derry slots. BTW, the Derry slot was developed by some guy named Derry back in the early '60's. The bottom line is that the XBO is a flat panel canopy vs the P/C which has 'formed' panels for steering & propulsion. Also, which Dan posted here a couple of years ago, when Security showed their first XBO canopies to Loy Brydon & PCA, Brydon immediately went to Pioneer with the steering concept that Security developed and then Pioneer used it for their steering system on the P/C. The entire XBO system was introduced in the early part of '64 and this kicked Pioneer in the keester to rush the P/C onto the market. IMO, if it had been for the introduction of the XBO at that time, we would have waited forever to get the P/C on the market. Maybe Howard White or someone can come up with a good photo of the XBO which would help understand all of this better. There was a great photo of an XBO on the cover of SKYDIVER magazine sometime in '64 or '65; it was of Ted Mayfield jumping with a huge 7-Up logo painted into the tail of the canopy. Ted worked for the local 7-Up distributor at the time and they bought him an entire brand-spanking new XBO rig for advertising purposes. This immediately lead to a number of people talking companies into buying them rigs and/or canopies for marketing purposes. I remember seeing a photo of some guy who had a Seagrams logo painted into the tail of his XBO canopy. Does this help any? JerryBaumchen PS) I have always considered it interesting in the both LeMoigne & Jalbert did their early development work for lifting devices only; they had no interest in a device for use by jumpers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 6 #19 January 11, 2010 QuoteMaybe Howard White or someone can come up with a good photo of the XBO which would help understand all of this better. Sure. Lots in mid-60s Sky Diver mags. Lyle Cameron, its editor, was a big XBO fan boy. The XBO was on the cover of the July, 64, issue and the attached pic was an ad on the back cover. QuoteThe Crossbow harness and piggyback container assembly is the greatest change in parachuting since Da Vinci. The reserve is on the back! Yes, you read it right; the reserve is on the back, piggyback on top of the main. and.. QuoteThe Crossbow has two fully independent control systems, each with its own purpose. Under normal spotting conditions the parachutist should work only with the toggles on the rear risers,which provide turns and full brakes. Where a jumper has either undershot or overshot his opening spot, he could use the Crossbow's "overdrive," the front toggles... I'll scan and post some more pix soon. And, BTW, Cameron wrote in almost equal praise about the Barish Sailwing, which he saw about a year later. As to the PC, if memory serves, Pioneer first saw its market as a towed parasail. I'll check on that, too. And I last saw Teddy Mayfield at the Old Farts reunion in Salt Lake City in 2008. HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #20 January 11, 2010 Is Ted Mayfield still kicking? I heard he was on the city counsel at Sheridan. Is Elevator still flying? Those names stir up a lot of memories. I didn't jump at Sheridan much, but I'll never forget the jumps I made there.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,464 #21 January 11, 2010 Hi steve, QuoteIs Ted Mayfield still kicking? I heard he was on the city counsel at Sheridan. Yup, he still is. He had to give up the spot on the Sheridan City Council because he married a gal from the Phoenix area and they spend their winters in AZ. Last time that I saw him was at the memorial for Gary Douris in Nov. Quote Is Elevator still flying? Elevator is currently flying & living in the Philipines; he is flying cargo to wherever they want it. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,464 #22 January 11, 2010 Hi howard, Somehow I knew that I could count on you. In that photo it is very easy to see the two Derry slots on each side of the canopy. Also, anyone can see that each panel in the canopy is flat, no formed panels ala LeMoigne principle. If you can find it, try to post the photo of Mayfield with his 7-Up canopy. It was a first, although he had 7-Up buy him a 1.6 & put a logo into before they bought him the complete XBO rig. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 6 #23 January 12, 2010 couple more from the same issue... The caption on the first one says: "Steering lines coming from two points on each side of the four-slot modifications. Lines run to the center line, join again before running down the center line to the toggle knobs of front and back risers." HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,464 #24 January 12, 2010 Hi steve, So now you have a lot of info on the XBO. Howard, Might I say Great Job with the photos; if they don't explain things, nothing will. Quote"Steering lines coming from two points on each side of the four-slot modifications. Lines run to the center line, join again before running down the center line to the toggle knobs of front and back risers." Security eventually changed the steering line configuration to be like those on the P/C's. That is a photo of their very first configuration. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,464 #25 January 12, 2010 Hi howard, A little bit of trivia about the XBO. In the summer of '64 Ralph Hatley bought a P/C; they only came in R/W/B as in the avator for SEREjumper. Since Ralph was a dealer for Security, they put the pressure on him to jump a XBO; so he ordered one patterned as close as he could like the R/W/B P/C's. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
