DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Interesting about Quebec, georger.

"The hijacking then a political
act, not something heroic as so many people think."

Well, I think part of the "heroic" nature of it, was that maybe it was a political act? People layer their own feelings on to it.

What about the bourbon drink? Does that align with a Quebec theory?

I'm thinking no? or ???

(edit) a quick look at canada and whiskey:
"Canadian Whisky is made primarily from corn or wheat, with a supplement of rye, barley, or barley malt. There are no Canadian government requirements when it comes to the percentages of grains used in the mash bill. Unlike Bourbons, they are aged, primarily in used oak barrels. The minimum age for Canadian Whisky is three years, with most brands being aged four to six years. Virtually all Canadian whiskys (except the pot-distilled malt whiskies of Glenora in Nova Scotia) are blended from different grain whiskies of different ages. Bulk Canadian Whiskys are usually shipped in barrels to their destination country where they are bottled. These bulk whiskies are usually bottled at 40% ABV (80 proof) and are usually no more than four years old. "Bottled in Canada" whiskies generally have older components in their blends and are bottled at 43.4% ABV (86.8 proof)."

[snowmman 3]

Jerry worried "Because so many people wanted to be involved and made false alligation's for 15mins of fame. Many more young woman died.Because of fabrcater's .There was so much Info that led into the wrong direction"

It is possible that if Cooper is alive, he might hijack another plane, I suppose. Maybe ask for even more money!

I guess you're right, Jo is threatening people's lives by impeding the investigation. :)

Run! There's Cooper! and he's got a .......paper bag.

(edit) "Now the truth is being told."

I, for one, thank Larry Carr for telling the truth to us. What a relief. Oh by the way, what is the truth???? did I miss it?

[snowmman 3]

This is a little deep and maybe off the liberal or conservative scale, but as an historical note it's interesting (vietnam references while it's going on..and not yet "over") and it's still applicable today.

It's easy to forget with the Bush "terror" label, that terror has been happening non-stop, by groups all over the world, for a long time. What's new is the ability of smaller groups to inflict its results over longer distances.

Noam Chomsky might make some people livid, which is a reasonable reaction. I've not read much of him before.

http://www.chomsky.info/debates/19671215.htm
The Legitimacy of Violence as a Political Act?
Noam Chomsky debates with Hannah Arendt, Susan Sontag, et al.
December 15, 1967
ROBERT B. SILVERS: ... Under what conditions, if any, can violent action be said to be "legitimate"? ...


...
A second case, which I guess is the one everybody's got on their mind, Vietnam, raises interesting and difficult questions in this regard. I'm not going to discuss the situation post-February 1965 but rather the earlier period. From 1954 to 1957 there was large scale terror instituted by the Saigon government, and the reason was pretty simple, it wasn't just blind and wild. The reason was -- this is Buttinger's theory and I think accurate -- that any democratic institutions that would have been created would have been taken over by the Vietminh and therefore it was impossible for the Saigon regime to allow any sort of democratic expression. It was necessary to resort to violence and terror.

Then, in the period from 1957 to 1965, there were two sorts of violence, roughly. There was the mass violence conducted by Saigon and the United States; Bernard Fall estimates about 160,000 killed during that period. And there was also the selective violence, selective terror carried out by the Viet Cong as part of a political program which succeeded in gaining the adherence of a good part of the population. During both of these periods, Americans tended to accept and condone the violence that was conducted by the United States and the Saigon government, reserving their indignation for the much more limited Viet Cong terror.

For my part, of course, there's no question about justifying the American and Saigon government terror. But what about the harder question, that of the terror practiced by the National Liberation Front? Was this a legitimate political act? The easiest reaction is to say that all violence is abhorrent, that both sides are guilty, and to stand apart retaining one's moral purity and condemn them both. This is the easiest response and in this case I think it's also justified. But, for reasons that are pretty complex, there are real arguments also in favor of the Viet Cong terror, arguments that can't be lightly dismissed, although I don't think they're correct. One argument is that this selective terror -- killing certain officials and frightening others -- tended to save the population from a much more extreme government terror, the continuing terror that exists when a corrupt official can do things that are within his power in the province that he controls.
...

So to sum up: if violence could be shown to lead to the overthrow of lasting suppression of human life that now obtains in vast parts of the world, that would be a justification for violence. But this has not been shown at all, in my view.

[georger 267]

Quote

Interesting about Quebec, georger.

"The hijacking then a political
act, not something heroic as so many people think."

Well, I think part of the "heroic" nature of it, was that maybe it was a political act? People layer their own feelings on to it.

What about the bourbon drink? Does that align with a Quebec theory?

I'm thinking no? or ???

(edit) a quick look at canada and whiskey:
"Canadian Whisky is made primarily from corn or wheat, with a supplement of rye, barley, or barley malt. There are no Canadian government requirements when it comes to the percentages of grains used in the mash bill. Unlike Bourbons, they are aged, primarily in used oak barrels. The minimum age for Canadian Whisky is three years, with most brands being aged four to six years. Virtually all Canadian whiskys (except the pot-distilled malt whiskies of Glenora in Nova Scotia) are blended from different grain whiskies of different ages. Bulk Canadian Whiskys are usually shipped in barrels to their destination country where they are bottled. These bulk whiskies are usually bottled at 40% ABV (80 proof) and are usually no more than four years old. "Bottled in Canada" whiskies generally have older components in their blends and are bottled at 43.4% ABV (86.8 proof)."

I dont know of any special association btwn bourbon
and Quebec City. Maybe Im missing something. I
spent parts of many summers there as a child.
I remember the stark poverty in the old section
with poor kids running around everywhere, like
Mexico City. But Cooper had no accent. Still he
could have had some association with political sentiments in Canada, as expressed by the Dan
Cooper hero figure.

From the separatist perspective the Dan Cooper
icon amounts to a joke, a put on, a stereotype
for the powerful bumbling super hero to the south whose economy and culture affects everything in Canada, and some resent it deeply.

I have no idea who Albert Weinberg had in mind
when he cast his hero Dan Cooper. If this was
something out of French or British culture, because
the name Cooper has both British and French
links. The name "Cooper" is iconic in its own
right in literature, synonymous with adventure
ever since James Fennimore Cooper. Its a powerful
enduring literary icon in Western literature. Dan
Cooper as a name follows in that deep tradition ...
I am sure Weinberg was aware of the linkage.
Whether the name had specific cultural linikage
in Weinberg's mind, only Weinberg could say.
But as you often say, readers could cast their own
interpretations .... as DB Cooper may have if he
chose the name on purpose to use.

If Cooper chose the name by accident, it is a large
coincidence. (edit] Europeans familiar with Tintin
would see the name association instantly. Americans not familiar would probably miss it altogether.

DB Cooper's association with the comic might have
been casual but, if he chose Dan Cooper because of
the hero specifically, then that establishes some level
of political or cultural self identification - he said he had a "grudge". Grudge assumes some level of
self identification in the larger social context, at
least as perceived by the person saying: "I have a
grudge".

I almost hate to make say this or make any
association - but look at Weinberg's dress.
Look at the Cooper sketch. Formal ties in both.
I realise this is a weak association.

Some have attributed Cooper's dress to businessman,
office genre, food server (Himmelsbach), and the
like. It could also be standard European motif.
Again, I can only speak from my personal impressions
from my background. I dont expect others to make
the same associations ... it has always been
interesting (somewhat humorous) to me that
out of all occupations and niche-social, Himmelsbach
conjectured "food service worker". Low class pessant.

[snowmman 3]

good points all, georger.

you said "It could also be standard European dress."

I may be betraying a stereotype, but were clip-on ties used in Europe as much as US? Especially a JC Penney clip on tie.
I thought I went thru the JC Penney reach in 1971, not sure if it extended into Canada. I was ruminating about it on US service bases at the time. Really doubt Europe at that point in time?
hmm..maybe I'll look.

[snowmman 3]

Quick search. This is interesting. Says in the '70s, JC Penney had stores in Italy
(and the founder died in 1971 ...funny coincidence)

...there's a Belgian connection in 1971!!(see 2nd snip below) (and weirdly an insurance connection). Check the source links if you don't believe my snips.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._C._Penney

"In 1966, J. C. Penney finished off the country's 50 states with the opening of its Honolulu, Hawaii store.

In 1969, the company acquired Thrift Drug, a chain of drugstores headquartered in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. It also acquired Supermarkets Interstate, an Omaha-based food retailer which operated leased departments in J. C. Penney stores, The Treasury stores, and Thrift Drug stores. On February 12, 1971, James Cash Penney died at the age of 95. In respect of James Cash's death the company's stores were closed for half a day. Later in 1971, the stores became J. C. Penney, and adopted their famous logo which has been used ever since (with only minor variants). In 1977, J. C. Penney sold its stores in Italy to La Rinascente and also removed its Supermarkets Interstate leased departments. In 1979, the Visa card began to be accepted in J. C. Penney stores. MasterCard was accepted the following year."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/450063/JC-Penney-Corporation-Inc

"In 1966 it acquired two insurance companies. Overseas operations began in 1968–69, when it acquired Sarma, SA, a Belgian retail chain; and in 1971 it inaugurated stores in Italy under the name J.C. Penney, SpA. In 1988 the firm relocated its headquarters from New York City to Dallas. Although J.C. Penney opened stores in Mexico and Chile in 1995, it closed its international merchandising division in 2003. In the early 21st century the company operated roughly 1,000 stores in the United States and Puerto Rico."

[snowmman 3]

this article says they were starting to look at Canada retail (with T. Eaton) in 1974. In 1974 they had 85 stores in Belgium!!

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10B10F83D551B778DDDAF0994DC405B848BF1D3

U. C. Penney and T. Eaton Plan Canada Retail Study
April 16, 1974, Tuesday

Page 58, 123 words

The J. C. Penney Company and the T. Eaton Company, Ltd., Canada's largest general-merchandise retailer, have announced a joint study of retailing opportunities in Canada. Their objective is an eventual joint retailing effort in that country.
...
Penney, second largest American retailer of general merchandise after Sears, Roebuck Co., already operates 85 Sarma-stores in Belgium and four stores in ..."

Brenda Moore got married on Long Island, reported 8/27/1972.
Here father was the president of the Belgian division then:

"Brenda Moore Is Wed on LI
New York Times - Aug 27, 1972
Her father is a vice president of J. C. Penney Company, Inc., and president of the company s Belgian division, Sarma, S.A. Mr. Cher was graduated in 1970 ... "

[georger 267]

Quote

good points all, georger.

you said "It could also be standard European dress."

I may be betraying a stereotype, but were clip-on ties used in Europe as much as US? Especially a JC Penney clip on tie.
I thought I went thru the JC Penney reach in 1971, not sure if it extended into Canada. I was ruminating about it on US service bases at the time. Really doubt Europe at that point in time?
hmm..maybe I'll look.

Yes, clip ons, especially among workers and working
class. Quick, cheap. Because the tie meets social
standards. (Interesting he takes it off before
he jumps). We had a driver in Quebec City. When
alone in the car he took it off instantly - hated wearing it. But when transporting people or getting out of the
car he always put it on, like a requirement of the job.
Then off, and he would almost tear it off, and down
on the seat beside him. I thought it was funny. My
mother always told him to take it off once we were
in the car but he insisted on keeping it on as long
as there were passangers - for public appearance.
He felt important having it on if we were in the car.
Then off immediately, to fit in with his peers ....
He had a whole thing about this tie! As a kid I
thought it was very funny.

I dont know if JC Penny or what. Somehow I doubt
JC Penny in Quebec City. It may be too early for Eatons? In fact there were vendors near the old
section who sold things like ties and shoes and stuff...
our driver might have bought his there.

Social class is important in EU. Carried over into Canada. People dress accordingly. When I grew up in the 50s social class was evident especially in cities in Canada. (even farmers would wear a tie - old broad thick wool ties, usually brown).

well I may be making more of this than there is
but if our Dan Cooper is the Dan Cooper from Tintin...
then our hijacker was making some kind of point,
if only to himself, and at some intellectual level...

How many people hijacking aircraft would pick that name out of a hat? Cooper is a common name,
but Dan Cooper (aviation hero and parachutist)?

Have any other hijackers used folk hero names?

How do the odds split for a dimwit to pick a hero
name vs a common English name? Either way it
seems to me at a level higher than a dimwit would
naturally do?

[georger 267]

Quote

Quick search. This is interesting. Says in the '70s, JC Penney had stores in Italy
(and the founder died in 1971 ...funny coincidence)

...there's a Belgian connection in 1971!!(see 2nd snip below) (and weirdly an insurance connection). Check the source links if you don't believe my snips.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._C._Penney

"In 1966, J. C. Penney finished off the country's 50 states with the opening of its Honolulu, Hawaii store.

In 1969, the company acquired Thrift Drug, a chain of drugstores headquartered in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. It also acquired Supermarkets Interstate, an Omaha-based food retailer which operated leased departments in J. C. Penney stores, The Treasury stores, and Thrift Drug stores. On February 12, 1971, James Cash Penney died at the age of 95. In respect of James Cash's death the company's stores were closed for half a day. Later in 1971, the stores became J. C. Penney, and adopted their famous logo which has been used ever since (with only minor variants). In 1977, J. C. Penney sold its stores in Italy to La Rinascente and also removed its Supermarkets Interstate leased departments. In 1979, the Visa card began to be accepted in J. C. Penney stores. MasterCard was accepted the following year."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/450063/JC-Penney-Corporation-Inc

"In 1966 it acquired two insurance companies. Overseas operations began in 1968–69, when it acquired Sarma, SA, a Belgian retail chain; and in 1971 it inaugurated stores in Italy under the name J.C. Penney, SpA. In 1988 the firm relocated its headquarters from New York City to Dallas. Although J.C. Penney opened stores in Mexico and Chile in 1995, it closed its international merchandising division in 2003. In the early 21st century the company operated roughly 1,000 stores in the United States and Puerto Rico."

How about a store in Seattle or Portland in 71?
Purchased right before the hijacking.

[georger 267]

Quote

this article says they were starting to look at Canada retail (with T. Eaton) in 1974. In 1974 they had 85 stores in Belgium!!

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10B10F83D551B778DDDAF0994DC405B848BF1D3

U. C. Penney and T. Eaton Plan Canada Retail Study
April 16, 1974, Tuesday

Page 58, 123 words

The J. C. Penney Company and the T. Eaton Company, Ltd., Canada's largest general-merchandise retailer, have announced a joint study of retailing opportunities in Canada. Their objective is an eventual joint retailing effort in that country.
...
Penney, second largest American retailer of general merchandise after Sears, Roebuck Co., already operates 85 Sarma-stores in Belgium and four stores in ..."

Brenda Moore got married on Long Island, reported 8/27/1972.
Here father was the president of the Belgian division then:

"Brenda Moore Is Wed on LI
New York Times - Aug 27, 1972
Her father is a vice president of J. C. Penney Company, Inc., and president of the company s Belgian division, Sarma, S.A. Mr. Cher was graduated in 1970 ... "

good searches! Shake the bushes on Weinberg and his associates which included parachutists.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

You had no ground's for your claim's.Believe me you still don't. You never will. Take for instance Your first conversation with me was that Duane pointed out to you, as you crossed the cowitz River,on I-5 and said that is where cooper hid the money. And that you could not remember what Bridge you crossed to enter Washington . however you did remember it was in Portland and no stop's were made.

Jerry I am being kind to you, but I will not let you think you can get away with what you are doing.
I realize that it is now your job to silence me.

I don't even know where the Cowiz River is. I have never said that the bridge we crossed into Wa. was in Portland - it was not long after we left the Dalles and I have been emphatic about this from day one. We did not go to Portland until we were on our return trip. This is very trite of you.

The first times I talked to you or Himmelsbach I didn't even have a dam map of WA. I told both of you and the FBI we spent the night at The Dalles and that he left me that morning for several hours.. That we went along the river due West around noon and I may not have known the name of the bridge we went across until I was able to acquire a map of the area. You and others kept insisting I had to be on I-5 and that we had to have crossed the river in Portland even though I kept telling and telling about this body of water and the site where the 3 cottages used to be and looked like a camp site - and I described this area in detail. You kept telling me there was NO such place.

Until I went to WA in 2001 - I had NO idea that you were leading me away from the actual route I was describing to you. Now, I will be trite and ask WHY?
Did you go to the places I told you about and find something hoping you could plant them in another location? When I started talking to you in 1997 you were insistent that COOPER Landed much further NORTH...at that time you where emphatic he didn't land any where near the Washougal. We actually argued about the Washougal - you telling me there was NO WAY.

I argued with you we went to a wide body of water and have repeatedly told you it was not the Washougal or the Columbia and you told me that NO SUCH Place existed - do you remember that?

YOU told me I had to have been on the Columbia. Who was I to disagree with the man on the ground. You have repeatedly coerced me and told me I am a liar and that there was no such place like I describe. Perhaps it is you who should explain himself.

I realize that your job now is to incite me, because you need to silence me. I have done nothing but make kind posts to you...I do not call you names or put you down or call you a liar ---there are many time I have wanted to do so. You claimed in a post way back when you first came to the thread to being an educator and a teacher of sorts???????????

NOTE to ALL: Jerry seems to get upset when I post regardomg things which just disappeared within the files of the FBI and the media. This is the second time I have brought up the ""satchel - The FBI never addressed it nor anyone but Tosaw. It was the crux of a phone conversation I had with Tosaw after I read his book...he wasn't in a good mood that day so the conversation was REAL short.


Below is the post I made
--------------------------------------
Old issues Bag or Satchel.

I have never understood how the Brown Satchel became a dark colored briefcase or visa versa.

There were a couple of accountings that referred to the brief case as a satchel. A satchel can be referred to as a bag. A satchell certainly would have been easier to attach to the harness because of the hardware and loops of canvass. A canvass bag could have held boots along with a bomb.

These satchels where about 12 to 14 inches deep and 12 to 17 inches long and averaged about 8 inches wide. Duane owned one of these I didn't get rid of it until he died - he never used it and I never saw it until 1990.

Just a curiosity to throw out there - as one of the stewardesses referred to it as a satchel - I believe that was in Tosaw's book if my memory serves me right. Not going to go looking for it. It is something I have asked Himmelsbach about many time and I never really got an answer from him or the FBI in regards to the satchel thing.

Remember that Tosaw had one of the rare opportunities to interview Tina Muchklow.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

It was difficult to believe a responsible writer wrote that article. I also didn't know where Christiansen got his information about the book Max wrote. The phone conversations Max had where with Clara - a total of 6.
Cooper never gave any details in his contacts with the NY media in 1972...by way of 2 short letters.

Gee Whiz - and someone thinks I am looking for some kind of publicity. I think Christiansen should read the letters Max and I exchanged - and listen to our phone conversations. If you guys think I have contrived the Weber/Cooper story - read the article Tom Larson did - so many errors, so much misinformation and no research.

Once an article is published or a documentary is done - there is no way you can defend yourself. I was told there was NO way you could have any control over the end result...I just do not believe they would bend the rules for Jerry...but he claimed this to so in a recent post.

At least in the thread one has the right to defend themselves as I have had to do many times, but this too will end.

Question: What and why and where was amphibian training done after 1962? Wasn't the last of that just before the Bay of Pigs? Isn't there a place - in Virginia Beach that did this during that time? I haven't found much on this - just something Duane said in passing over the yrs...but I never had a reason to go into it.
We lived in Virginia Beach for 5 yrs - so don't take that it is anything relavent...more of a curiosity.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I realize that it is now your job to silence me.

Jeez... starting to get a bit paranoid there Jo?

Quote

The term paranoia was used to describe a mental illness in which a delusional belief is the sole or most prominent feature.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Quote

Quote

I realize that it is now your job to silence me.

Jeez... starting to get a bit paranoid there Jo?

Quote

The term paranoia was used to describe a mental illness in which a delusional belief is the sole or most prominent feature.

Jo,

That is a pretty serious claim. If Jerry truly has been tasked with silencing you who gave him the job? Does he get paid? Why must Jo be silenced?

My job is to hold you to account on your statement that Duane Weber was Dan Cooper and that you would share your proof.

Neither Jerry or I are very good at our jobs. We may get fired if we don't show better results.

Jo, nobody has a job to silence you. That is delusional thinking. You and Jerry just don't get along. That's what Occam tells me.

I still welcome your posts but I am thinking more like Orange these days. You can easily change that, but I doubt that you will.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[nigel99 610]

Quote

Quote

I realize that it is now your job to silence me.

Jeez... starting to get a bit paranoid there Jo?

Quote

The term paranoia was used to describe a mental illness in which a delusional belief is the sole or most prominent feature.

What I find extremely funny about this thread and in fact over the past 2 or 3 thousand posts I would say 99% of the reason for me visiting is to see how seriously people take some random persons word as truth or of serious consequences

I don't know what the average posters age is on this thread but I get the impression that Airtwardo is a young'un (for a change) but the level of bullshit claims certainly rivals that of 16 year old kids talking anonymously on the internet about their anatomical dimensions.

What really ticks me off is how much I have grown to hate this thread and yet like a crack addict I keep having to come back for more - really wish it was possible to be banned from a singe thread

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[snowmman 3]

nigel99:

you may be exactly right.

But: Compare to what you see on TV documentaries, after consultation with FBI Larry Carr, and Scientist Tom Kaye.

Are we any worse?

I think basically the same.

I mean, what are you comparing this thread to? What's the gold standard?

(edit) I think the frustration is that it's all insane, and there is no path to sanity. It's a tar baby. You touch it, you go insane. There is no level of intelligence, knowledge, skill, equipment, money, secret information, or anything that can change that.

[nigel99 610]

Quote

nigel99:

you may be exactly right.

But: Compare to what you see on TV documentaries, after consultation with FBI Larry Carr, and Scientist Tom Kaye.

Are we any worse?

I think basically the same.

I mean, what are you comparing this thread to? What's the gold standard?

What am I comparing this thread to? The serious answer - go and look at any of the "other" threads in history and trivia, skydiving and skydiving disciplines - on the whole the threads are serious, well informed debates.

I think that the "tone" of this thread is slightly lower than the "naked postwhore glory" threads in Bonfire.

As to this forum being any worse on technical quality than other sources on cooper - once you strip away the noise I doubt it.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

nigel99:

you may be exactly right.

But: Compare to what you see on TV documentaries, after consultation with FBI Larry Carr, and Scientist Tom Kaye.

Are we any worse?

I think basically the same.

I mean, what are you comparing this thread to? What's the gold standard?

What am I comparing this thread to? The serious answer - go and look at any of the "other" threads in history and trivia, skydiving and skydiving disciplines - on the whole the threads are serious, well informed debates.

I think that the "tone" of this thread is slightly lower than the "naked postwhore glory" threads in Bonfire.

As to this forum being any worse on technical quality than other sources on cooper - once you strip away the noise I doubt it.

Ah. That's the mistake.
This thread has nothing to do with skydiving, really.
It just happens to be here.
I don't think there's any way to make it related to skydiving.
It happens to involve a parachute and a jump.
But it is as closely related to road flare manufacture. Or bourbon drink recipes.

(edit) For instance, from my point of view, the only thing interesting about the thread is the possibility of getting a paintball guy to release information about 38 year old bills the FBI gave him for some reason. That's about as far from skydiving as you can get!

[georger 267]

Jo,

That is a pretty serious claim. If Jerry truly has been tasked with silencing you who gave him the job? Does he get paid? Why must Jo be silenced?

377

[georger 267]

What I find extremely funny about this thread and in fact over the past 2 or 3 thousand posts I would say 99% of the reason for me visiting is to see how seriously people take some random persons word as truth or of serious consequences

What really ticks me off is how much I have grown to hate this thread and yet like a crack addict I keep having to come back for more - really wish it was possible to be banned from a singe thread

I have come to the conclusion you have to
live in Washington to make any real progress
in this case. Otherwise, one is a spectator hoping
the Cooper Rover will somehow be sent to the places
and topics that truly matter, and most of the time
the Rover sits, doing nothing! Do you realise, we
dont even have coordinates for where the money
actually was! And yet we are asked to make
judgments about tides and currents and fields,
and those who could speak to these issues don't,
and some consider these issues settled but settled
with 'what'?

Correction: we are not asked to make judgments.
This forum is irrelevant and basically an anecdote.

That frees others to screw around forever on their
own terms -



It's pure frustration on my end.

[georger 267]

(edit) For instance, from my point of view, the only thing interesting about the thread is the possibility of getting a paintball guy to release information about 38 year old bills the FBI gave him for some reason. That's about as far from skydiving as you can get!

[snowmman 3]

Quote

(edit) For instance, from my point of view, the only thing interesting about the thread is the possibility of getting a paintball guy to release information about 38 year old bills the FBI gave him for some reason. That's about as far from skydiving as you can get!

Tom may never publish, and his work never be
released. Are you prepared for that prospect?

[georger 267]

Quote

Quote

(edit) For instance, from my point of view, the only thing interesting about the thread is the possibility of getting a paintball guy to release information about 38 year old bills the FBI gave him for some reason. That's about as far from skydiving as you can get!

Tom may never publish, and his work never be
released. Are you prepared for that prospect?

No problem. It does add to the mystery of his TV appearance then, but hey! that will add to the layers of obfuscation that the next DZ.com thread (in 10 years) has to scrape away! :)

Georger lamented: "Do you realise, we dont even have coordinates for where the money actually was! "

Tom apparently has them, apparently validated by Ingram and Fazio. Jerry may have gotten them that day. Yes we don't have them. Maybe covert AZ op is needed?

Georger measured "This forum is irrelevant and basically an anecdote."

Yes, agreed. Hasn't it always been?

[snowmman 3]

Georger observed "I will remind everyone that Quantico did its own analysis of the money, clear back in 80. The FBI has had every opportunity to do further testing analysis over the years, as methods changed and new questions arose."

That's a good point. The show talked about "new" forensic science, but what tools were usable on the money now, that weren't available in 1980? SEM's have been marketed since 1965.
What new tools could Tom bring to bear? Any?

"The SEM was further developed by Professor Sir Charles Oatley and his postgraduate student Gary Stewart and was first marketed in 1965 by the Cambridge Instrument Company as the "Stereoscan". The first instrument was delivered to DuPont."

My theory has always been that Larry is comfortable with hiding information, to the point of apparent deception. (depends on your point of view).

If Larry told us some stuff, why not tell us more about any money analysis? Why hold back anything? (Is he writing a book :)...the classic Cooper-related refrain! :)

In any case, if we take Larry at face value, the FBI analysis must have suggested the money was deposited after the dredging, maybe a couple years before the find. Or am I forgetting what Larry implied?

(edit) There's no new data that suggests any FBI analysis was wrong, Correct?

[snowmman 3]

This is an interesting paper, apparently from the late '60s.
Was talking about issues with the cooling water for a proposed nuke plant, but the key thing is that it says the Columbia experiences reversal of hydraulic flow, due to tides, up to 40km from the river mouth.

The specific case they show with a map, is where the Cowlitz river hits the Columbia. It's a good distance past the Lewis (towards the ocean).

The used dye and actually did a nice study with data.

In their conclusions
"Tihs study shows that an extensive upstream movement of water can occur near Prescott during low flow stages of the Columbia River".

It's interesting, because it talks about the reversal being more likely during low flow times?

The paper is good. Georger should take some time to digest it.

It probably doesn't apply because the Lewis is too far past the Cowlitz...but it's interesting.

http://www.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_14/issue_6/0960.pdf

We do know that the canal/stream that drains Vancouver Lake (the old one called "Lake River", not the new channel) experiences flow reversal because of tide and water level issues. We discussed this before...
Hmmm. We should analyze that known behavior more. Maybe there really can be some flow reversal from the Lewis, to Tina Bar. Would be wild if so, (although supposedly discounted in 1980 by tidal person???)

"The upstream flow was of sufficient strength and duration to carry the dye about 4.7 km upstream from it's release point. The dye was confined chiefly in the main channel"