DB Cooper

[377 22]

Quote

Prior, though, in his air-conditioned office Al told me he saw a lot of shards of Cooper twenties in all kinds of shapes and sizes, discolored and black, and in various states of decomposition. He said many pieces were scattered along the high-tide mark. He couldn't say if it was that day's high tide, or the previous night's or the day before, etc. He also said that nothing was buried, that it was all laying on the surface as if it had just washed in. He said the three bundles were just lightly covered.

Wow! Why is this information not in the public FBI files? How could Palmer have missed this??

It still makes little sense that samples were not collected and kept.

Thanks for the post Bruce, very fun and informative reading.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

Bruce drop by the big foot Inn and enjoy. In the rainy season all streams and rivers tell a different story as you will Know.Take time and drop by the washougal and vancouver library you will find many answers there. Try checking the water levels and rain fall for the time frame in question also the river heigts then look at the weather maps they have for the date in question you will be enlightned. Jerry

[georger 268]

Quote

Greetings from Tina's Bar, y’all, where it is 101 degrees tonight at 8 pm, or at least that's what the time-temp sign read when I jumped on I-5 and headed back to Yelm.

Whew, just about the hottest day I've ever experienced on this planet, but it was such a kick to see the actual spot, the ground zero of Cooper World.

I had a wonderful chat with Al Fazio and his younger brother Richard, who by the way was an electronics guy for the USAF in NPK, Thailand, 68-69, monitoring hi-tech surveillance stuff dropped upon the Ho Chi Minh Trail. He didn't know anything about SOG, or Billy, etc., but it was just one more neat little Cooper piece dropping into place,

Al took me to Tina’s Bar, which is amazingly non-descript. In 1971 the Fazios allowed unlimited public access to the beach and left a jar for quarters. Two bits was the going rate. Worked okay for years, but then the party people started trashing the place and stealing stuff.

The Fazios have a large sand operation, and it is my understanding that the sand they sell is dredge spoils that nowadays are pumped onshore into receiving pits, whereas back in 1971 Al told me they threw it on the beach, expanding the beach depth and width. Now they have huge piles along the roadway leading to their place.

Currently, the beach at Tina's bar is quite narrow and steep. So is the river bed under the water. I dove in immediately when I got to Tina’s, before I took any pictures or interviewed folks I saw further down the strand.

Prior, though, in his air-conditioned office Al told me he saw a lot of shards of Cooper twenties in all kinds of shapes and sizes, discolored and black, and in various states of decomposition. He said many pieces were scattered along the high-tide mark. He couldn't say if it was that day's high tide, or the previous night's or the day before, etc. He also said that nothing was buried, that it was all laying on the surface as if it had just washed in. He said the three bundles were just lightly covered. Also, he is convinced they floated down the Washougal, and once they got to the environs of Tina’s Bar, ol’ Mom Nature did a little spit and spin and put the Fazio family into the history books.

BTW: Their Cooper literary collection is quite impressive.

Al also disputed Himms claim that shards were found in the sand as deep as three feet. Al said there were no shards buried at all, and when I ask him about Himms claims, he damn near choked saying, "that's a lot of gov't ...crap. (Guy has talked to a lot of reporters and knows how to stay on the record without compromising his visceral language - I like that.)

Also, Al confirmed that there is tidal action present at Tina’s Bar, so ocean water could push certain dead people up river if they have money tied to them, theoretically.

BTW: Al spotted me as I drove in. When I came to a stop and began to get out of my truck, he eyed me and said, “Reporter, eh?” I smiled; then he did, too, and we had a wonderful time of it from there. Both Fazios are great guys.

Al confirmed that he and Richard were on the backhoes digging for the Feds, and he used that perspective to back up his claims that nothing was found deep.

I met the downstream neighbor of the Fazios, a guy named Guy, who is nice guy, too, (or is that three).

Guy told me that Tosaw was at Tina’s Beach for a month last year, again employing divers and dredging the bottom. Only came up with car parts and bed springs.

“It’s amazing what down on the bottom of this river,” said Guy.

Guy also caught a steelhead for dinner when I was there.

When I was swimming I found the river to be dangerous. The downstream current is deceptively strong and moved me steadily. However, more troubling was the river pulled me deeper into the current and away from the beach. This rip-pull was very strong, comparable to the worst I’ve ever seen in the ocean, and it was active from just off-shore in about four-feet of water, which was about 8- 10 feet from the shoreline.

A short distance upstream from the Fazios is a Clark County beach called Frenchman’s Bar that only costs 2 bucks to get in. No lifeguards, but there were a ton of people in the water, and a bunch of dudes on jet skis. Again, the current and rip-pull were just as strong as at Tina’s Bar.

I talked to a bunch of people and everyone was chatty and quite aware of DB Cooper and the history of Tina’s Bar. But some folks are getting things confused. One thirty-something I spoke with was convinced that Tina’ Bar was down by the Washougal, not near where we were standing at the end of NW Lower River Rd, about two miles downstream from the Fazios. However, this guy told me it was once possible to drive along the river from Tina’s to the Lewis River, but that the road bed has collapsed and sunk. The flood plain is quite enormous in this part of the river. Many miles wide. I just found this stuff interesting, and not necessarily tied to the DBC story.

Speaking of which, by late afternoon I decided to try for the trifecta of Cooper Swimming Spots – Tina’s, Vancouver Lake and the Washougal. But after I left Tina’s I stopped at the near-by Vancouver Lake, which Jo has talked about, but it was closed due to a deadly blue-green algae bloom.

Then I headed down to the Washougal for a swim and to see if Jerry needed any friendly shoulders to cry on now that the Feds have totally abandoned the Washougal theory, but when I got there I found he was home in eastern Oregon.

Jerry had a good laugh when I told him about the new propeller theory.

Continuing, the parts of the Washougal that I saw near the Columbia were in Camas, WA, and they were nearly bone-dry – trickles and thin riffles of current. Plenty of kids were swimming in them, but it was a long steep hike down to the water from where I could park, so I bailed.

Nevertheless, I was struck with the thought that any bag carrying 10,000 twenty-dollar bills would be quite visible for long periods of time during the dry summer months. Yes, it could easily travel downstream in the wet season, but what happens if it gets lodged on a rock in the middle of the river in May? Nine years is a lot of summers to dodge high and dry-ness. Yes, Mom Nature can do many incredible things, but the Washougal Theory has a higher degree of doubt tonight for me than it did this morning.

BTW: At one point I went swimming with my wallet in my bathing suit pocket. I’ll tell ya – just an afternoon of being soaked by Columbia River water darn-near tore up my bills by dinner time, let alone three months, three weeks or nine years.

BTW: Dinner was wonderful at El Ranchero Viejo in Camas. The lemonade was exceptional. Also, rooms in the quaint, comfy 1902 Camas Hotel run 50-70 a night. Both were in the delightful Historic District which has big-leafed trees spanning across the streets. Sweet.

One sweet superb report! You earned your spurs with
this. You're hired.

Tides.

Guess Snow-thing just got carried out by one. Its
about time.

You have developed into a very valuable asset.
Congrats and thanks. Its appreciated more than
you know.

[georger 268]

Quote

I guess after last nights viewing all of you are in shock. This is why back in march I refused to be Interviewied by National Geographic Not even Tom was prepaired for this release. It is A theory that has been brought up before. Call it my fault if you like. 15 yrs ago it was a joke. Oh! well someone took it serious.But to believe someone would publish it. What a shock it's almost Like saying Duane Weber or myself was Dan Cooper. Or Better yet time to confess Georger you were Cooper And Snowmmann you Knew it all along. Shame on you Guys.Yes I did post about Backwash And have known about it for years I even pointed it out to Tom K His comment was very enteresting. But still That theory never could have happened. I only pointed it out to show what the river itself could do. Now I encourage all of you to make a phone call to the Fazio's Brothers or a trip to Tina's Bar and talk to them in person and then contact me And I will take all of you on a tour of the entire area. Then you can make your own determination on what could have happened verses Fantisies. Jerry

Yes God damnit! I am DB Cooper.

Hope you liked my post on the origin of the Lewis
theory.

Tides. If you knew the number of times I have
sat in this chair and look at tide data and thought
'tides' and wondered endlessly ... with respect to
Tina Bar ... and now here is Bruce's SUPERB! report.
Damn. I would have said something earlier but thought
I would get ridiculed by MeltingMutant. So I keep it
to myself.

Thank God for Bruce! He deserves an award.

You always said the Fazios had a story! You werent
kidding!

[georger 268]

Quote

Quote

They may have paid up but YOU did NOT
originate the propr theory. It was developed in
1980.

How stupid do you thnk we (the world) is?

I think Snowmman was just joking about originating the propeller theory Georger.

I don't know anything about the ability of prop "washback" or ship wakes to move things upstream. Perhaps Jerry has seen examples of upriver transport by these methods and can tell us how it operates. I will keep an open mind.

377

Tides. Fazxios say tides. Bruce says,,,
and I can believe it. I have wondered about tides a million times ... I dont live there so cant know
firsthand. If you recall I asked months about about
"any" positive link or route for things appearing at
T_Bar ... a place, a time, anything! I had tides in the
back of my mind. I think Jo tried to answer this, in
actual fact it was JO who brought up tides herself
once.

Now thanks to Bruce, here we are. Tides straight out
of the Fazio's mouth. Tides may be the link to when
and how. Now, from where?

I can smell a huge debate with Jerry coming up.
But tonight-today BRUCE is our hero. What a GREAT
report.

[georger 268]

Quote

Georger My Phpne has rang off the hook all day from as far away as Ireland and south africa japan and china. To Include National geographic.I need to talk to you give me a call. If you get a chance. After the last post you made on your theory I would like to Know if you still believe Diatoms is not a option.Jerry

will have to be Tues night ... usual time.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

First… Good Job Cousin Brucie! A site-visit always carries a lot of weight over “armchair” speculation.

I hate to sound argumentative, but we all have to maintain “critical thinking” if we are ever going to build a useful database.

I see something in Al Fazio’s story that years of accident investigation indicates Mr. Fazio’s memory MAY BE faulty.

Quote

Prior, though, in his air-conditioned office Al told me he saw a lot of shards of Cooper twenties in all kinds of shapes and sizes, discolored and black, and in various states of decomposition. He said many pieces were scattered along the high-tide mark. He couldn't say if it was that day's high tide, or the previous night's or the day before, etc. [Emphasis mine]

He said the shards and bits were discolored and black. All the photos (that I could find) of the bills the first few days after being found, show the (nearly whole) bills as somewhat faded but not discolored (to a high degree) and none are black.

The currently accepted theory (borne out by chemical analysis) is that the black discoloration was caused by dusting (all) the bills with silver-nitrate AFTER they were in FBI custody. The more recent photos of the money definitely show a lot of discoloration, including blackening.

So, is Al Fazio’s memory mixing recent images with the images of the day?

Does this discount other aspects of his description?

Did the parts of the bills that broke away from the main bodies, experience something that caused them to be discolored (including blackening)?

Does any of this matter?

I do not have any answers, but I will maintain “critical thinking” as I process Bruce’s report on Tena Bar.


Respectfully submitted,

Sluggo_Monster(Late for work... again!)

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

You know, we talk about Jerry doing legwork, but Bruce is the ONLY guy here that's calling folks, reporting information, doing stuff other than scanning the web.

Georger does some stuff. He's reported one or two things that must have come from the FBI. But that's not on-the-ground stuff.

Tom has reported nothing.

Sluggo was good at collating info for his web site.

So: Bruce is definitely the best investigator. Agreed?

[snowmman 3]

Bruce said "I had a wonderful chat with Al Fazio and his younger brother Richard, who by the way was an electronics guy for the USAF in NPK, Thailand, 68-69, monitoring hi-tech surveillance stuff dropped upon the Ho Chi Minh Trail."

That's really fucking weird because 377 introduced a conversation about that stuff a while back..the stuff disguised as turds by way of example.

I think 377 said he actually has a device of some kind.

[snowmman 3]

sluggo said "The currently accepted theory (borne out by chemical analysis) is that the black discoloration was caused by dusting (all) the bills with silver-nitrate AFTER they were in FBI custody. The more recent photos of the money definitely show a lot of discoloration, including blackening."

thanks. If this is true it's good info.

I had been pushing and pushing on this black bill thing. I thought maybe there was chemicals on the bills, and that the color changed over time. But with the recent info about the fingerprint chemical stuff, I didn't think of that as a possibility.

Be interesting if it's true.

[snowmman 3]

Remember how many posts and pictures I posted about black bills, brown bills, etc. Remember how many times I asked questions about that, and hypothesized.

And then Sluggo just drops some information that the dream team did an analysis and had an answer. Yet no one here deserved a simple little post that directly answered that question.

Funny.

Any georger wonders why I don't give a fuck about anyone.

[377 22]

Sluggo has traveled to do a DBC related interview and document inspection. So has Galen Cook. I made phone calls seeking 727 and SAGE info. Mostly we just search the Net.

Bruce actually crawls out of the rabbit hole and deserves a lot of credit for REPORTING what he learned above ground.

Sluggo treads tenderly here, but he raises a valid point about critically examining the issue of Fazio's memory. He reports seeing an extensive money particle field apparently deposited by a recent high tide, but nobody else does.

How could such significant and visually obvious evidence be missed by everyone else investigating the site??? Why were no samples collected? Why would the FBI dig so much if it was obvious that all the money was on the surface? Your thoughts on this Bruce?

Tidal variation in water depths are found far upstream in many major rivers that flow to the sea. Net current flow however is rarely upstream on a flood tide unless it is a dry summer with little downstream fresh water.

NOAA publishes some current data for navigable rivers.

Interesting how the Nam war shows up everywhere. One of the Fazios worked in what sounds like the Igloo White program which used electronic sensors to report ground activities to aircraft.

Nice job Bruce! We all need to get out more. We are too much like spiders, all WEB all the time.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

my recollection is we talked a lot about tides. Don't know why georger is saying tides are new.

Remember we discussed the drainage from Vancouver Lake that flows in both directions, depending on tides etc.

Georger got excited about tides. Don't know why. I thought we covered Columbia hydraulics pretty extensively.

Georger?

[377 22]

Quote

Bruce said "I had a wonderful chat with Al Fazio and his younger brother Richard, who by the way was an electronics guy for the USAF in NPK, Thailand, 68-69, monitoring hi-tech surveillance stuff dropped upon the Ho Chi Minh Trail."

That's really fucking weird because 377 introduced a conversation about that stuff a while back..the stuff disguised as turds by way of example.

I think 377 said he actually has a device of some kind.

I have quite a bit of IGLOO WHITE stuff Snow. Fake animal feces with geophone and VHF transmitter, fake rocks with radios too, an ASID antenna that visually mimics a jungle plant with a mini coax fitting on the base.

I actually had one device explode on me. It was a covert transmitter that had a small explosive squib (about the size of a .38 cal blank) installed on a circuit board for remote controlled self destruction. That kind of stuff is never supposed to be released in surplus but this escaped intact. I was fooling around applying DC to various traces and KABOOM! No injuries but what a shock. I didnt recognize what the component was until it detonated. It trashed the PA and tuning circuit thoroughly.

I also have GSQ 151 seismic intrusion sensors used by ground troops in Nam. A set has four VHF transmitters with geophones on spike mounts and a receiver. Each transmitter has a unique audio tone sequence sent when ground vibration is detected. Works REALLY well, very hard to get anywhere near a sensor without triggering a warning transmission even treading very lightly.

What I don't have and do want is a CIA mini direction finder transistor radio and associated beacon. If I get one I want Billy Waugh to autograph it. These haven't shown up on eBay yet.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Exactly.
oh, another thing. I know you must have worked on an oil rig before. Could you just have blocked it out of your memory because it was such shit work?

[377 22]

Nope, never worked on an oil rig or wanted to. Good pay but no way would I want to live on one of those for even a week.

Once got involved in a legal battle over a disasterous fatal fire on a North Sea rig. The insurers were certain that a malfunctioning diesel generator set started it but had no proof. They were trying to get surveillance satellite thermal images that might have shown the fire in its early stages.

I worked for the manufacturer of the satellite of interest. The insurers wanted info on what it could image (delta T specs and spatial resolution) and what its orbit was during the duration of the fire. We refused to provide the info since it was a classified spook sat. They were asking the US Govt for the same info and got the same response. What was interesting to me is that they even knew what satellite to ask about. It was almost like they knew for sure what images were actually captured of the burning rig. Maybe they got tipped by a spook.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Nope, never worked on an oil rig or wanted to. Good pay but no way would I want to live on one of those for even a week.

Once got involved in a legal battle over a disasterous fatal fire on a North Sea rig. The insurers were certain that a malfunctioning diesel generator set started it but had no proof. They were trying to get surveillance satellite thermal images that might have shown the fire in its early stages.

I worked for the manufacturer of the satellite of interest. The insurers wanted info on what it could image (delta T specs and spatial resolution) and what its orbit was during the duration of the fire. We refused to provide the info since it was a classified spook sat. They were asking the US Govt for the same info and got the same response. What was interesting to me is that they even knew what satellite to ask about. It was almost like they knew for sure what images were actually captured of the burning rig. Maybe they got tipped by a spook.

377

Yeah, there's always the stuff out of left field that, by definition, is unpredictable.

Like the Nat Geo flick. I wasn't supposed to be able to watch it. I had to hack into the satellite, literally just 2 hrs before the broadcast, to beam it to my computer. I only got the setup working literally minutes before broadcast. I did have some redundancy though.

So it's an interesting thing to model: What was the probability that I wouldn't have got the broadcast? 0% 50% 90%? I think the answer is: it doesn't matter. Since Nat Geo will likely rebroadcast the Cooper thing. You can predict that because you can see how often they rebroadcast things like the CIA mind control, or the Green Beret thing.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

This is an example of one of the things that irritates me about this forum:

A says something… B misquotes it… C makes it part of the database.

Example:
Sluggo said:

Quote

The currently accepted theory (borne out by chemical analysis) is that the black discoloration was caused by dusting (all) the bills with silver-nitrate AFTER they were in FBI custody. The more recent photos of the money definitely show a lot of discoloration, including blackening. ***

snowmman said:

***And then Sluggo just drops some information that the dream team did an analysis and had an answer. Yet no one here deserved a simple little post that directly answered that question.

snowman,
I did not say the Sci-Team did the analysis… YOU did (say it, not the analysis).

And BTW:
Jerry Thomas posted this:
Post #10446 JerryThomas said:

Quote

377 Yes I can.The FBI dusted every 20 bill with a silver sulfate dust. This was comon back then. This is What contaminated all the Bill's .This has been known since 1980's Jerry

He got the chemical wrong, but it’s the same purpose. You must have been on sabbatical. Or, maybe you’ve run out of things to gripe about.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

per this book/page:

http://books.google.com/books?id=2vGT9KI6QT8C&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=%22silver+nitrate%22+fingerprints&source=bl&ots=RrDRNM88HW&sig=SRzgGJ6jWpMGuDDie6ELBBoFkgk&hl=en&ei=wTtvSu3lDIrQtAPLhKGCAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6

"Silver nitrate fingerprint detection is no longer used as commonly as it once was, due to the expense of the reagent, cumbersome procedure, and background darkening, i.e., poor selective development of the print. Silver nitrate development is not very effective on articles that have been exposed to high humidity or that have become wet, because of the water solubility of salt"

See, the book says

"Silver nitrate, in the presence of chloride anions of the salt in fingerprint residue, forms silver chloride. This basically is the displacement of the nitrate anion by the chloride anion. Subsequent exposure to light reduces the silver cation to neutral silver, which results in a dark grey (basically black) fingerprint development"

So it seems to me, that it made no sense to use silver nitrate on money that had been wet so long.

How do I resolve this? Be nice if we had a fingerprint expert that could fill us in on the state of affairs around 1980.

(edit) In short, with knowledge of the use of silver nitrate correctly, it's possible that all this talk about silver nitrate, and the metallurgist on tv with Tom Painball Guy, is just a lie?
Correct?

[georger 268]

Did the parts of the bills that broke away from the main bodies, experience something that caused them to be discolored (including blackening)?

Does any of this matter?

I do not have any answers, but I will maintain “critical thinking” as I process Bruce’s report on Tena Bar.


Respectfully submitted,

Sluggo_Monster(Late for work... again!)

[377 22]

Quote

So it seems to me, that it made no sense to use silver nitrate on money that had been wet so long.

The FBI does make mistakes in forensic analysis. I once was involved in a case where a cassette tape recording was pivotal evidence. At issue was whether the recording was original or a copy and whether the recorded speech was continously recorded or a spliced together production.

The FBI lab made fundamental errors in its analysis and their resulting conclusions that any EE would laugh at. They do a lot of things right but not everything.

Maybe the FBI just messed up with the silver nitrate and used it inappropriately.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 268]

How could such significant and visually obvious evidence be missed by everyone else investigating the site??? Why were no samples collected? Why would the FBI dig so much if it was obvious that all the money was on the surface? Your thoughts on this Bruce?

Tidal variation in water depths are found far upstream in many major rivers that flow to the sea. Net current flow however is rarely upstream on a flood tide unless it is a dry summer with little downstream fresh water.

[377 22]

Tides

http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/data_menu.shtml?stn=9439221%20Portland%20Morrison%20Street%20Bridge,%20OR&bdate=20060810&edate=20060811&ssid=N1&datum=6&unit=1&shift=&type=Tide%20Data&format=View+Plot&plot_backup=

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

Tides are definatly different in this river in the summertime However it is not strong enough to support a theory that would alow a body to be transported such a great distance. Lets not forget the time of year the money was found. During high water table's the columbia river has such a strong current that everything is moved toward the ocean.Now the high tide level from where Bruce entered the water too the location the money was found is at least 100ft That is how low the river is at this time of year. The current at high tide only alows objects to go in one direction. Does anyone honestly believe that the summers current would have brought the money such a great distance up stream? Do you have any idea how far that would have to of been? For it to of withstood months of high water flow only to be deposited on tinas bar at high tide. The lewis River theory is a no go. Maybe ET was cooper and put the money on Tina's bar and the small bits of money were leftover's from the money he had eaten. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman For Natiunal Geo's theory to be believed. The ship that would have been responsible for the deposit on Tina's Bar can be pin pointed.This ship would have to of done this with in 48hrs of the money being found. You see the visitors to Tina's Bar during this time frame was a great deal. The pieces observed by the Fazio's was in plain site and easily spotted. At any rate the longest period of time that this could have taken place is one week. Your mission should you decide to except it , is to check the records for this time frame and Identify the names of the ships that passed Tina's Bar during this Time frame and how far up river they went.Then check the amount of rain falls for those days. I believe the results will prove Nationa Geo's theory is flawed.Jerry