DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

georger, did you say something about scars?
I didn't quite hear it. Maybe a little louder?

[snowmman 3]

(edit) Initial version of this post miscorrelated two missions, but my message is still the same.

This account focuses on Billy Laney (KIA) and Charles Wilklow, and is good reading to see what these guys had to deal with.

http://www.pownetwork.org/bios/l/l009.htm

It ends with:

"When Wilklow came to, he was looking into the face of SSG
Roy Pace, a Black American, who had performed a one man bright light by rappelling in to rescue him. Wilklow was wearing a STABO rig and was extracted by string."

My only point: I don't want georger to create the impression that I don't understand or respect heroism. I do. I may not be it, or know it firsthand, but I can see when others recognize it in their accounts.

[377 22]

Quote

377 said
"If he did do it undisguised, don't you think he would avoid photos subsequently?"

Need clarification, 377.

What photos are you talking about? most of the photos I posted are pre Nov 71. So those were done.
The recent photos were 2004ish? or so?

I mistakenly thought there were a few post NORJACK photos of Billy other than the octagenarian ones.

Still... why woulod Billy or someone as skilled as Billy do NORJACK undisguised? These SF types know how to plan and know how to minimize the odds of detection and capture. Seems to me a disguise would be on their mission list. Am I missing something?

I wouldn't expect him to board with a ski mask but I also wouldnt expect him to board looking like himself.

That Wilson stuff is just mind boggling. Bruce can really run hard on a conspiracy track with that kind of raw material at his disposal.

Sending a planeload of C4 to Libya isn't a lot crazier than sending 96 US made TOW missiles to Iran (using Israel!!! as the broker no less), which was done by US officials supposedly acting without the authorization of the President or Congress.

As an aside, didn't carrying such a low value cargo as drilling mud by jet from the US to Libya raise some eyebrows somewhere?

Snow, you find the most amazing stuff. I sometimes try to backplot from your results to see where my searches missed the boat and I am still puzzled at how you found your gems. You must have designed a back door into some server chip that is central to the whole Google enterprise. I know that is actually possible. Just admit you did it and I can stop feeling so inferior.

Hope you and Georger can maintain the current flavor of disagreement, in which personal insults are refreshingly absent. I know you guys will mix it up. That's as dependable as the sunrise.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Roy was the last recipient of the Medal Of Honor for the Vietnam War, being awarded to him by President Ronald Regan thirteen years after the fact.

Roy was Yaqui Indian. I can't help but be drawn to the stories of minority ethnic groups drawn into Vietnam. I've mentioned the indigeneous Montagnards before. Why is it compelling to me? I think because Vietnam was a white man's war. A lot of people were used, perhaps without fully informed consent.

Nungs are mentioned here. In many accounts from Vietnam, Nungs, Montagnards and ARVN are just referred to anonymously, without names. They died just as surely as US troops.

But I want this post to remember Roy.

from http://www.macvsog.cc/1968.htm

02 May 68- Leory N. Wright, SFC E-7 and Lloyd F. Mousseau, SSG E-6, USASF, and four (+) SCU Nungs, B-56, Recon Mission-KIA The team of three Americans and nine SCU Nungs was inserted into the Fishhook, Cambodia. Larry S. McKibben, WO1; Michael D. Craig, SP4; & Nelson E.Fourier, SP4 of the 240th AHC (Their photo's and personal inforamtion can be viewed at the 240th ACH Memorial. The team Immediately upon insertion, engaged an enemy squad, shooting their way clear only to be engaged by a platoon size element a half hour later. The team was able to work their way back to the LZ; however, due to a massive number of NVA and heavy enemy fire pinned the team down and forced away any rescue attempt. The team was now engaged by several enemy companies using mortars, RPG, and machine guns. The team leader, Leory Wright was struck in the head by a single enemy AK bullet, killing him. Lloyd Moussea, one-one, and Brian O'Conner, one-two, were wounded several times. Half of the SCU Nungs were dead and the other half wounded. A one-man bright light team arrived, Roy Benavides, a heavy set Yaqui Indian, wounded immediately in the leg, continuing his rescue, bandaged the wounds and injecting morphine the best he could as he called in air strikes when wounded in the thigh. As he attempted to recover Wright?s body, he was wounded again through a lung, he pulled himself to his feet to discover a Huey lying on it?s side. Benavides, then stumbled to LZ to assist those survivors and was shot again. Five minutes later, Benavides was shot once more and another aircraft crashed. A lone helicopter then arrived with Ronald Sammons, a Green Beret medic, and assisted Benavides recover the crew members and members of the recon team. During this process, while carrying Mousseau, Benavides was clubbed in the head by an NVA AK, knocking Benavides to his knees only to be butt-stroked in the face and then bayoneted through his left arm by the NVA soldier. Mousseau died on the helicopter and Benevides survived to face a year of hospitalization mending a total of seven major gunshot wounds, twenty-eight shrapnel holes and a bayonet wound. Roy Benavides died December 1998 of those wounds he suffered so many years ago and I believe his last written correspondence was to me where he wrote on the 17th day of November 1998, among other things he wrote: "I still have a dream which I look forward to fulfilling: as you know, Love for our Country and freedom for our loved ones runs deep in the American soldier?s blood. Prayerfully, I look forward to the time when a movie may be made of my life. There is so much to tell the American youth about struggles and perseverance that I firmly believe the real message could so easily reach them in a movie (story) of my life." Roy was the last recipient of the Medal Of Honor for the Vietnam War, being awarded to him by President Ronald Regan thirteen years after the fact.

[snowmman 3]

377 said: "I sometimes try to backplot from your results to see where my searches missed the boat and I am still puzzled at how you found your gems."

Hmm. kinda dense. You didn't realize why I posted about the Leghorn and Hickory sites, and their NSA intercept gear?
:)

[377 22]

Very moving accounts Snow and I get your point about it being a white man's war.

When I was working in the Public Defender's office in Oakland CA during the Viet Nam war, quite a few black kids charged with crimes dodged a court/prison bullet by opting to enlist. There were deals made to dismiss charges upon successful enlistment.

I often wonder what happened to those guys. They weren't the seasoned hard core career criminals, as they usually had too many prior convictions to be accepted into the Army. They were usually kids facing their first felony for burglary, drugs or some other non violent crime. Usually the evidence was overwhelming and they did not have a chance of beating the case. It was a choice between nearly certain conviction and imprisonment or taking a chance in Nam.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I can't help but be drawn to the stories of minority ethnic groups drawn into Vietnam. I've mentioned the indigeneous Montagnards before. Why is it compelling to me? I think because Vietnam was a white man's war. A lot of people were used, perhaps without fully informed consent.

Nungs are mentioned here. In many accounts from Vietnam, Nungs, Montagnards and ARVN are just referred to anonymously, without names. They died just as surely as US troops.

I've posted some stuff about the Montagnards a while ago. It seemed like a good reason for a "grudge", the way many were let down by the US after the war. I seem to recall that there were some however to whom promises were kept and there is a community in the US of them... i may be getting mixed up but i seem to recall it was smokejumper country that they went to, probably missoula... will go check ...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Jerry Thomas,
I know when I post about Vietnam, it dredges up hurt. And I wasn't there. And I know that most vets have this feeling, that's true, that people can't understand. I know I don't.

But that's the reality we're stuck with.

However: even though I've argued with you in the past on this stupid Cooper thing, I hate the thought that I may have said something stupid, that caused any pain.

Just fire a post and say "no worries, snow".

(edit) On the other hand, maybe the thought is "snow's a dumb fuck. Ignore him." That's actually probably the better, more appropriate response!

[Orange1 0]

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22131

We'd like to call it the 'Million Montagnard March,'" said Rong Nay, of Greensboro, N.C., "but now there aren't a million Montagnards left in the world."
Nay is referring to his people, the mountain tribes of the central highlands of Vietnam. He is one of only about 3,800 Montagnards now living in the U.S. During the Vietnam War, the Montagnards were estimated to number between one and a half and two million. The Vietnamese government now numbers them at 750,000. During the same period, the Vietnamese population has gone from 31,000,000 to 80,000,000. The Montagnards, some of whom live in Cambodia, fought alongside U.S. troops in the Vietnam War.

....
The plight of the Montagnards is even less known than that of the Hmong of Laos, the ex-CIA Special Forces who fought in America's secret war in Laos during the Vietnam era. Montagnards is the French word for "mountain people."

The 250,000 Hmong who survived the subsequent death camps, patrols, landmines and jungles of Laos on their exodus from the nation when the war was lost, found refuge in camps in Thailand. Others made it safely to the U.S., Australia, France and England, where they were repatriated by America and her allies. In all, some 35 countries took in Hmong refugees. Over 35,000 Hmong will be granted visas to come to the U.S. via legislation that will waive the English language requirement for potential Hmong refugees. Many Hmong have found learning English to be extremely challenging, as Hmong has had no written form until the last few years.

....
The Montagnards hold a special place in the hearts of all of us who served with them in Vietnam," said author and former Green Beret Jim Morris of Los Angeles, Calif. "They were our most loyal allies. Many have put their lives on the line for us, and they have been repaid very badly."

Thomas Eban, of Charlotte, N.C., known in Vietnam as Y Tlur Eban, was one of the first to fight with the Americans, joining with the first contingent of Green Berets in 1962. He fought with the Americans until they left in 1975 and fought on with the Montagnard resistance group FULRO for 10 years after the Americans left.

"FULRO representatives volunteered to form a resistance movement and requested help from the American government," says Eban. "The Embassy people didn't say yes and they didn't say no. They nodded and smiled and made soothing noises. The Montagnards weren't used to diplomatic language. They asked a yes or no question and got nods and smiles. They took that as a yes and fought on for 10 years on the strength of that."

Most of the Montagnards in the U.S. are veterans of that movement. They form one of the most prosperous refugee communities in the United States, mostly in North Carolina.
....

and here is an article on Hmong http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17252

Editor's note: This is the first of an exclusive three-part investigative series by WorldNetDaily's roving international correspondent Anthony C. LoBaido. During the past year, LoBaido has traveled throughout Thailand and Laos, at considerable personal risk, documenting the plight of Laos' Hmong tribesmen -- including former CIA Special Forces soldiers who fought side-by-side with American soldiers during the Vietnam war. Among the most Christianized of the hill tribes in Southeast Asia, the Hmong have been the object of great persecution by both the Stalinist government of Laos and the Communist government of Vietnam. But their biggest betrayal of all is still coming -- from the United States government and the United Nations. Until now, no reporter from any other news organization worldwide has been willing or able to document this important story. ...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

There are always a bazillion ways to perceive things.
I really enjoy the book reviews by experienced SF guys.
(I'm assuming this guy was SF since his photos were in the book..but it's a good review in any case). He suggests "Almost all of the SOG commanders were either WWII OSS or .."

We've talked about Vietnam ages. I suppose it is unique to both be old, and NCO (not officer) in vietnam.

He also mentioned how most official photos were destroyed in 1972.

This is a review of "SOG: A Photo History of the Secret Wars" John L Plaster's second book. (he's done a bunch by now)


from: http://www.amazon.com/SOG-Photo-History-Secret-Wars/dp/1581600585

March 26, 2000
By Neil Terrell (Chicago, Illinois)
If you thought John's first book was a trip (SOG: The Secret Wars of America's Commandos in Vietnam), this one is mandatory. It is bound to become required reading in every senior war college in every country in the world. It is covert operation best of breed techniques and tactics evolved by both sides over an eight year period. It also puts an evolutionary perspective on the development of those tactics and techniques. How to put em in, pull em out, what to wear, what to take, what to do while you're there, how to do it, and what to whistle while you're doing it. Moves and counter moves. "Hey John, what do we do about the dogs?" Because both books cover the same unit and period, there is a superficial duplication. The first book was primarily a collection of amazing, small, war stories in a historical framework with enough background and profile material to hold anyone's interest. While it had a little of the soldier's bias "from the bottom of the trench", the current book is a lot more objective with more history and substantial tactical and technical detail. Did I mention 700 photographs? Two of the photographs are mine and he actually spelled my name right - Thank you John. About half of the book could (and will) be used as textbook and manual for future recon operations. It also includes a lot of info on the intel/spy/psyops operations and miscellaneous odds & ends we occasionally got mixed up in. The photographs are unreal. Nothing like this has ever been done. It is an instant classic in military circles.

This unit was unique in that it could only have evolved in the way that it did in the time frame and with the people as they existed. Almost all of the SOG commanders were either WWII OSS or jungle guerilla types. The last missions were run in '72 and in another 2 or 3 years, all of the experienced people from SOG left in the military will have retired. The Army in their infinite (and normal) wisdom evidently destroyed the photographs and most of the documentation. The senior brass that is left will not have the foggiest idea of what this is all about. You can recreate the TO&E and fill the slots, but you cannot order people to do what the men in this unit volunteered to do three or four times a day (or night). John does an excellent job describing that esprit de corps and comradery that makes men stand in line, without a thought to personal safety, to leap in harm's way to rescue another. There was a lot of James Bond and John Wayne in this outfit. What does live on exists in the spirit and knowledge imparted to and residing in the various Special Operations Command units. There is still some well deserved bitterness because we often had to fight our own senior military command, State Department, and politicians as well as the North Vietnamese, and any of the above could get you killed. There might be some more bitterness due to the fact that after the US pulled out of South Vietnam, a lot of the natives, both Montagnard and Vietnamese, that we worked and fought with, and loved, probably wound up against a wall or spent at least a decade or more in re-education camps.

It should also be noted that the SOG vets that brought these photos back with them to the States were also in some serious jeopardy because of the TOP SECRET classification on all of SOG's activities. Photographs showing identifiable terrain features in Laos, Cambodia, or North Vietnam would identify the photographer as being in those forbidden or illegal locations. Photos showing actual operations in progress, people preparing for operations, and people returning from operations could create some rather enormous international problems (and maybe a wee bit of political embarrassment) when obviously American led troops were still in NVA uniforms and carrying AK-47's. Real "Spy" spoken here folks. The release or publication of these types of photos could have resulted in prosecution and up to 20 years in a Federal Fun Resort. That was then - this book is now and belongs to all of us with John still in the one-zero seat.

When Hollywood gets around to SOG, they will have to tread lightly. The problem they will have to face will be believability, because the reality was much larger than any fiction and no writer would dare to go this far out on the credibility limb. But then, there are those 700 photos.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

They died just as surely as US troops.

Yes, they did.

They were among America's most loyal allies in Vietnam and paid a heavy price -- US officials estimate that at least 200,000 Montagnards died in the war. Thousands more were executed or imprisoned after the communist takeover of South Vietnam in 1975.

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/type,CHRON,,VNM,469f38f4c,0.html

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

377 will like to read about the current MC-130E Combat Talon I, outfitted for covert missions with the Fulton Air Recovery system
here:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/mc-130e.htm

But this post is about a SOG C-130 (Combat Talon) lost in North Vietnam. These were called Blackbirds, and the missions were part of a deployment called Project Stray Goose.

I found another book that I referenced before, but reading it on Google books, it has a lot of good stuff and photos of planes etc.

Details of the lost C-130, plus other stuff 377 will love is here on page 296. can scroll back and forth a couple of pages for more info. It also has details about C-130 flights into North Vietnam with US jumpmasters, and Cambodian or South Vietnamese jumpers. "Combat Spear" was another project name for these out-of-country flights.

It also notes that the infils had an almost 100% failure rate.

Almost 456 agents were captured or killed almost immediately after infil (page 297). Others still MIA.
http://books.google.com/books?id=tEv4-55pnRAC&pg=PA296&lpg=PA296&dq=stray+goose+S-01+north+vietnam&source=bl&ots=6ow72pVZDF&sig=RvjNMsIXli_1vTdHjx3B4nMduTY&hl=en&ei=h0VWSou2DYbgsQODhLH0AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

HALO is mentioned on page 298
http://books.google.com/books?id=tEv4-55pnRAC&pg=PA298

Attached a photo of SSgt Franklin Miller who eventually got a Medal of Honor. He's waiting for extraction of his recon team, pinned down by fire.

The lost C-130's crew:
COMBAT TALON AIRCREW S-01
Lost during combat mission into North Vietnam
- 29 December 1967 -

Lieutenant Colonel Donald E. Fisher - Navigator
Major Charles P. Claxton - Pilot
Captain Edwin N. Osborne, Jr. - Aircraft Commander
Captain Frank C. Parker, III - Electronics Warfare Officer
Captain Gerald G. Van Buren - Pilot
Captain Gordon J. Wenaas - Navigator
Technical Sergeant Jack McCrary - Flight Engineer
Staff Sergeant Gene P. Clapper - Radio Operator
Staff Sergeant Edward J. Darcy - Loadmaster
Staff Sergeant Wayne A. Eckley - Flight Engineer
Sergeant James A. Williams - Loadmaster

from the book:
"The term Blackbirds was frequently applied to both the First Flight C-123ks and the four C-130Es assigned to a different squadron. The C-130E squadron went through several different designations during its tour in South Vietnam. Initially assigned as Detachment 1, 314th Tactical Airlift Wing, it subsequently became the 15th Air Commando Squadron, later the 15th Special Operations Squadron, then the 90th SOS before it's departure to Kadena Air Base, Okinawa in 2972...The author uses the term Blackbirds as it was the one name that remained consistent throughout this period."

[snowmman 3]

from page 297
http://books.google.com/books?id=tEv4-55pnRAC&pg=PA297

It cites:

"Some of those teams confirmed as "under hostile control" might receive one last visit from a Blackbird, parachuting a final "resupply" drop into the darkened landscape below. These were "special" packages, booby trapped with high explosives set to explode when the container was opened by the double agents."

(edit) a couple of random pics I like
1) a skyhook ride, from a test run
2) Always make sure you have some grenades and smoke on top of your commo gear
3) a couple of mh47es in afghanistan (recent). Nice shades! Nice knife!

[377 22]

Absolutely fascinating Blackbird info Snow.

The mention of Cambodian paratroopers brought to mind a conversation I had with an old timer (70s?) named Dick who was flying the Southern Cross DC 3 at WFFC around 2005.

He was terrible at getting us a good exit spot in the beginning. On one of his loads flown above scattered clouds but with the pilots using GPS (badly) I landed miles from the DZ in a mall parking lot. Got a ride back in a van full of excited young kids who though this was the coolest thing that ever happened. They all wanted my autograph.

On returning to the airport I good naturedly asked Dick if he had ever flown skydivers before and he said no, except for some work in SE Asia during the war dropping paratroopers. He had flown Air America C 46s in SE Asia dropping Cambodian paratroopers.

Our Air Boss Dean finally straightened this crew out on spotting by flying with them and showing them how to use the GPS corectly. After that we had a bunch a good jumps from this DC3. It had uprated Wright 1820-86 engines used on Grumman SA 16 Albatrosses and it climbed like no other DC 3 I have ever flown in.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

We run our own covert op.
Need some jumpers, and a 727.
We hire the gunslinger, Waugh, to oversee a drop and provide security.
We get DNA and fingerprints covertly.
Plus, we tell Waugh in the end, so he can write about it in his next book.

everybody wins.

[377 22]

Sounds good Snow, but at 80 years old Billy is gonna know something is peculiar about him being our first choice for a covert airdrop job.

Couldn't we just find out where he drinks and hire a "professional companion" to hook up with him? She could get the prints and DNA easy. Florida has no shortage of candidates.

Maybe we could find the MK Ultra hooker list with a FOIA request and go from there. They might be a bit long in the tooth by now but they are CIA approved for covert ops.

Bruce, can we task you with this job?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Sounds good Snow, but at 80 years old Billy is gonna know something is peculiar about him being our first choice for an air ops job.

Couldn't we just find out where he drinks and hire a "professional companion" to hook up with him? She could get the prints and DNA easy. Florida has no shortage of candidates.

Maybe we could find the MK Ultra hooker list with a FOIA request and go from there. They might be a bit long in the tooth by now but they are CIA approved for covert ops.

Bruce, can we task you with this job?

377

Excellent. You're right that it'd be obvious to him if we tried hiring him for a job (wait, didn't the US govt do that just recently when someone paid him to go to Afghanistan in 2001 or so?)...but you're right most any skydiver would believe that a woman is actually interested in them because ..uh... I guess I don't know why.
(edit) and that includes the women! JOKE!

[377 22]

Lots of guys get into skydiving because they think it is a "chick magnet." Some guys just skip the training and expense and pose as a jumper at bars and parties. They probably do just as well as real jumpers, perhaps even better because they have more money. Real jumpers just divide their paycheck between their DZO, tunnel, gear store, rigger etc.

Old skydivers (including me) are so full of themselves that being approached by an attractive woman at a bar who is a third their age would not set off any "set up" alarms.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

didn't the US govt do that just recently when someone paid him [Billy] to go to Afghanistan in 2001...

I wonder if they thought the Jackal hunter might be able to help track down Bin Laden?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

didn't the US govt do that just recently when someone paid him [Billy] to go to Afghanistan in 2001...

I wonder if they thought the Jackal hunter might be able to help track down Bin Laden?

377

I'll be the first to admit I don't have a clue how realistic all of his post Vietnam exploits are. I just can't tell.

To be honest, it sounds like he got hired as a contractor (they use him as an example of the profileration of hired guns). I suspect there were more serious private contractors around. But I don't know.

Hey you know what's fun! The whole military scene worldwide is degenerating into masses of private mercenary armies. It's like you do your time in the real armies, just to get a resume together. Then you make your money doing private mercenary stuff, like Billy.

Makes sense.

I can't understand why Billy says he was on the front lines of going after guys like Osama and the Jackal.

I mean if that's the best we got, it's pretty pitiful. He's an old guy...why do old guys believe just because they may be wily, that somehow they represent the best the world can buy?

[377 22]

Quote

I can't understand why Billy says he was on the front lines of going after guys like Osama and the Jackal.

I mean if that's the best we got, it's pretty pitiful. He's an old guy...why do old guys believe just because they may be wily, that somehow they represent the best the world can buy?

In another ten years you will feel this way too Snow.
It is part of the aging process, denial of obsolesence.

I am still cool, still agile, right on top of my game, just ask me. I do, however, get a reality check from my teenage daughter: "Uh Dad, aren't you a bit old to still be skydiving? Are you trying to prove something?"

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Don't know if this is true. Sedgewick Tourison was Investigator for the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs. I did find another report that before the first HALO jumps, they had information that the NVA knew about the planned jumps, even mentioning team members names.

(edit) be nice to have access to Gaspard's "extensive SOG photo collection"

from page 464 of John L. Plaster's "SOG: A Photo History of tthe Secret Wars"

...sending teams into the North and enemy security concerns shifted to the Ho Chi Minh Trail, American-led recon teams also began encountering NVA troops that seemed to have been waiting for them. Two of the war's most critical Hatchet Force operations—the raid on the Trail headquarters in Laos and the raid on COSVN headquarters in Cambodia—immediately followed B-52 strikes, but the raids turned into ambushes in which many SOG men died. Twice, just before HALO jumps, the NSA intercepted NVA radio messages alerting enemy forces to the jumps—complete with grid coordinates!

And how was it possible that SOG Bright Light rescues liberated nearly 500 South Vietnamese POWs, but not one single American? Bright Light teams often found that Americans had been there, but had been moved only hours before the raid. Why?

Late in the war, a low-ranking South Vietnamese enlisted man serving at SOG headquarters had failed a polygraph test, but he lacked enough access to have compromised so many key operations over so many years. Most SOG men believed there was a much deeper mole who held higher rank. They were right.

Long after the war, analyst Sedgewick Tourison reported to SOG Maj. George Gaspard that Vietnam's communist newspapers and TV had hailed a "hero" identified only as Agent Francois, who had helped the Ministry of Security thwart many U.S. spy operations. He was cited as a senior South Vietnamese officer working in SOG headquarters.

Looking through Gaspard's extensive SOG photo collection, Tourison found the face that matched the shadowy Agent Francois he'd seen on TV in Hanoi—it was the major who'd run the Long-Term Agent program, then worked elsewhere at SOG headquarters. In fact, Gaspard recalled, the Vietnamese officer had told him he'd begun his intelligence career working with French intelligence—the Deuxieme Bureau—in the French-Indochina War.

Perhaps today Francois is a hero in his land, but to the wartime friends and allies he betrayed—Americans and indigenous—he is the most despicable of traitors.

[snowmman 3]

The reason I'm ignoring georger's scar question, is because it's unresolvable. Yes there might be something. Need more photos to know.

In any case, it raises the interesting question of whether the makeup possibilities we've debated ad nauseum, actually could have some truth..i.e. how hard would it be to hide any scars sufficiently?

Not enough info to know.
Georger might want to fire a couple posts, but I'm in the "can't know" camp. (based on the May 1971 photo)

[377 22]

Remember that NY model who got her faced sliced up by goons hired by her landlord? She appeared on TV in some makeup that did an astounding job of concealing her scars. I don't know whow natural it looked in person. Non HD TV pcitures can hide a lot of detail.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Yeah, the process flaw I'd like to avoid is premature optimization...i.e. drilling into one detail too early, and using that to steer away from the potential solution.

Every suspect could not be Cooper.
But the number of suspects that should have high probabilities, should be small.

The important thing is to keep the net full, and try to improve the probability factor for each suspect, with more information. Sometimes more info increases probability, sometimes decreases.

Not keep emptying the net on minor details, and saying "Where's Cooper, we've looked at 8 billion suspects, and we KNOW he's not any of them"

More information related to photos etc might be able to guarantee that the scars absolutely exclude someone.

But the overwhelming amount of other stuff, that fits a profile, makes me want to put the scars in the "don't know yet" category.

It seems like a no-brainer, that if the 305 hijack was planned, then minimally you'd hide visible scars and tattoos.

I think in the pics you can see a tat on the arm of Waugh. But that would have been covered up. He seemed to like rings and watches. I was wondering if removal of rings would have left a white line.

But I would think in combat he wouldn't wear all that bling?

Unclear.

Georger can focus on the bling maybe.

Also: what was his marital and family status in 1971? brothers/sisters/girlfriend/wife/ex-wife?

I would imagine you'd investigate that stuff before getting all worked up about faint lines on a May 1971 photo.

But hey that's just me. I'm not a 72 year old Osama finder.

(edit) If he had any family, and he was Cooper, maybe we could find them and find something where they'd give him up?