DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Brucie commenting about Carr/Comics "Or perhaps DBC had a connection to French Canada."

Yeah, I laughed when even Jerry just recently said something like that. Jerry said he didn't think Cooper was military, but maybe he was Canadian military. Like everyone knows Canadians are stupid?

I will confess that I thought "no" to military, because of behavior.

But in reading about these SF guys, they were outliers to military. It's interesting to read the history of how SF was created and adapted and maintained. Their outsider status shaped the people a lot, I think.

Especially when they mixed in a lot with non-US (Montagnards, RVN). Basically on their own a lot.

Not really standard, in terms of military experience/ways it affects people.

[377 22]

Quote

I'd also like to add that Tosaw writes that McCoy was also admitted to a psychiatric hospital for Vietnam-related "stress" during the time he was learning how to free-fall.

It takes a lot to get admitted inpatient to a VA psych hospital if that's where he went. It was either some real bad stuff he was going through or a clever ruse to make up a PTSD defense if he got caught after the hijack. Was mental illness even raised at his trial?

Flying combat rescue missions in Nam was harrowing to say the least. I wonder if McCoy's crime was partially a result of mental trauma. He sure didnt go on a spending spree after the crime. Didnt they recover all but ten dollars?

It is a tragedy that a guy with no prior criminal history and who gave so much of himself for his country would die in a hail of FBI bullets.
It should have turned out so differently for him.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

"McCoy's crime was partially a result of mental trauma"

Yeah, from the wife!

remember I posted how the court case about the book, ended up with her admitting her involvement in the planning etc.

But she was never charged with anything.

She got off just as good as Cooper did! (although no payoff)

[377 22]

I had forgotten all that stuff about the cunning Mrs McCoy Snow. She appears to have been quite a piece of work as they say.

Glad I didn't run into her after my divorce. My jet jump might not have been a recreational one if she was in the picture.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

What does everyone think about Billy W's resemblance to the FBI sketches? Sluggo? Safe? Snow? Orange? Others?

I thought Gosset was a pretty good match but I must say Billy blows him away on likeness, at least to my eye.

Of course we have no evidence that Billy had any involvment in NORJACK but few could dispute that he could have pulled it off. Sounds a lot easier than some combat jumps he had already made.

To put it all in perspective, I have little confidence that the FBI sketches resemble Cooper. I have seen too many criminal cases where the sketches turned out to be waaaay off even though witnesses said they were good (before the culprit was caught).

Is there anything in the way of appearance, physical traits or alibis that rules Billy out? I really doubt he was Cooper but it is quite something to find a guy with all this relevant training and experience and then have him match the sketch so well. I can't be the only person marvelling at this coincidence.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Here's the problem you (and everyone) has, 377.

We go thru everything we know, and make judgments based on our collective experiences, and say "well, it would more likely be someone like this" etc. But say "someone like that doesn't exist, especially not in Vietnam."

But then we go out and find someone that matches everything that people were looking for, including physical description, and we say

"Nah, can't be him"

I'm reminded of all the flak I got when I said I'd do the jump in shorts and sandals, and people were talking about experience, and being scared at the door etc.

All of a sudden, I have this feeling that people want to say "Nah, had to be a whuffo".

But then I ask mentally: "Why the sudden change?"

I get the feeling "uhhh Cause we're afraid of guys like Billy because they're our heroes and they snap towels at us in the locker room and plus he's killed folks so doesn't that mean he's not Cooper?"

How come people don't want to review the importance of November 1971 in Billy's career? And where was he in Nov. 1971? Was he in Texas yet? When did he travel to the Pentagon to try to get his orders changed? That May 1971 photo with Mrs. Alexander. Where was it? stateside? She worked in the Pentagon I think, dealing with the paperwork for SF..orders and such. She wouldn't have travelled to Vietnam? Why was Billy's LBJ photo on the wall behind them? Where was the pic taken? Did Billy go stateside much in 1971?

Her name was Billy Alexander.

I mean, he fits the psych profile Ckret presented, just in the military career instead of aviation career. He quit, and went to work for the Post Office.

Basically people are backpedaling away from 12 months of discussion and saying "Nah".

(edit) I think people are also wrestling with the realization of how small the world is. i.e. that anything is findable. (edit) caveat: anything significant, US related, with people living in the last 10 years.

[snowmman 3]

I would also note that Billy is #3 for me, in terms of musing about suspects. #1 was stupid of me. #2 was a good hit, but I've accepted that he's not Cooper.

So I've been thru the mental gyrations you get when you land on something that matches what you're looking for.

All 3 were different profiles. So it kind of matters what kind of profile you feel strongly about.

I agree #3 has the best sketch match, both 1971 and the advanced age sketch (which was surprising to me..I hadn't checked that. Thanks sluggo)

(edit) Oh p.s. I provided some examples of 1-0 and 1-1 RT leaders other than Billy. My take on my small subset, is that they were all different sorts of folks..i.e. it's not just that I landed on a typical RT guy. Some mainstreamed very quickly post vietnam. Some stayed in military. Billy's interesting in how he got hooked up with CIA in '77. He's a bit of a braggart too. The other guys don't seem to be as much. Although Billy is very good for preserving history as a writer.

I'd be really curious what other SF 1-0's and 1-1's think of Billy. I have no idea. There's a current crowd of yahoos that lap up his books, just because they love that shit, but I think that's not a fair way to judge Billy. Need some people who were peers. But then again, maybe that doesn't matter. We never really know someone perfectly, and shit happens.

[377 22]

My reason for doubting that Billy is Cooper isn't fear of him snapping me with a towel or even trying something worse. I just think the real Cooper would keep a very low post crime profile, especially if he matched the FBI drawings, and you can hardly say that about Billy.
He has drawn a lot of attention to himself and his Cooper relevant skills.

Why would you act like Billy acts if you were really Cooper? Well, you could argue that it makes perfect sense since it casts doubt on you being Cooper and you can go around in circles forever.

I would love to see what Flo or any other reachable eyewitness says about his photo.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

that makes sense.

I think he didn't surface till like 2004 though when he published his first book (he has another one in the works, and I think he said he has fiction in the works)

His name showed up in some other books before that. Not sure about pictures.

He's 80 years old. So life expectancy not too much longer, really. (fact of life).

Why would he hunker down at 75? You stop caring.
I did try to see if he was married or had kids.
That could be a reason to lay low, if that was the case...i.e. thinking about family.

I'm talking generally about possible Cooper suspect behaviors, if alive.

(edit) Here's a book by John L. Plaster called SOG from 1997.
http://books.google.com/books?id=1UZuAAAAMAAJ&q="billy+waugh"&dq="billy+waugh"

Two references to Billy with people commenting on him

Page 283
"But then a second all-volunteer team arrived at Nakhon Phanom, this one led by Sergeant Major Billy Waugh, "A real tiger, a gunslinger from the word 'go,'" Colonel Pinkerton said.
Waugh warned his men, five Americans and six Yards, they would..."

Page 303
"Another HALO team was in training, this one led by that SOG old hand who'd been everywhere and done everything except a HALO jump, Sergeant Major Billy Waugh. "He was hard to keep down," Major ....said

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I sent SGM Billy Waugh an e-mail telling him that he was the current subject of this thread:

Sluggo_Monster said:

Quote

SGM Waugh,

I run a website on the Northwest Flight 305 hijacking (D.B. Cooper). I also frequent a skydiver forum (Dropzone.com) which is running (their most popular) thread on D.B. Cooper. [ http://N467US.com ]

Recently on that thread there has been some speculation that you might be D.B. Cooper (or maybe someone with a similar background to you).

I would love to see your response to the comments/accusations, either in an e-mail to me or a post on dropzone.com. At this time, the last 20 or 30 post have been about you and/or SF OPS in Vietnam.

Here is a link to the thread:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3110098;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;guest=59018130

If that link doesn't work go to:
dropzone.com >> Forums >> Skydiving History and Trivia >> DB Cooper

Thanks in advance,
Sluggo

His response was:

Quote

Evening Sluggo, give me a break please, because I do not keep abreast of the DB Cooper incident. I was surely occupied at CCN, SOG Operations in November 1971.

Whomever Cooper was, he pulled a slick one on all concerned.

If I were you, I would look for a lad by the name of Ted Bradon, who was AWOL from SOG Operations about the time of the action.

Please leave me out of this, as I am busy writing and researching.

Anybody want to research Ted Bradon?

Also, he doesn't keep abreast of the Cooper case, but he knew it took place in November of 1971???

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Thanks Sluggo.

I figure if someone does something, like Waugh replying or you forwarding, that it deserves work in return.

So I'll start digging.

If Billy Waugh is reading this, thank you sir.

I know it might be unsettling (read: piss you off) to see us throwing darts in the dark. But that's all we've got, and from reading your background, I'm sure you can appreciate the thinking that just because something seems odd, weird or hard, is not sufficient reason to back away from it.

I'll go sniff around for this new name.

If Billy came on this site, I'd be willing to abide by some ground rules. I think first if he just came on and introduced himself to the jumpers, and gave a short history lesson with them, that they could learn from..it would be pretty cool!

I wouldn't want to stand in the way of that, so I'd just shut up if that was desired.

(edit) at first thought, my guess is Ted Bradon isn't going to come close to the age requirement, just based on statistics in SF.
But I'm looking.

(edit) I'm really confused by the lead. Ted was AWOL in Vietnam? Or AWOL on a stateside leave or assignment?
I'm not understanding what makes Ted jump out as a suspect.
Was he the only SF that was AWOL in 1971? That would be interesting if true.

(edit) I smiled when I read Billy referring to the hijack as "time of the action". I want to use that phrase. We've been saying Cooper incident. But "the Cooper action" is better!

[snowmman 3]

http://www.specialforcesbooks.com/MACVSOG.htm

Who's Who from MACV-SOG $75.00

" A listing of 6,700 personnel assigned to MACV-SOG and the Special Forces Command & Control Detachments. The list not only includes about 4,000 Special Forces personnel, but also civilians and other Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps personnel. Also included are First Flight Detachment personnel, TDY Snakebite, MI, Marine Force recon and SSG/SSA personnel. Other SOG aviation assets (attached to OP-75) and Navy Seals TAD to (OP-37) are briefly covered. No indigenous personnel are listed. Where known, specific duty assignments are given, down to recon team level. An alphabetical listing shows unit assignment, SFA/SOA member number (if applicable), Chapter (if known), status (if known) and a cross reference to other Who's Who monographs.There is a chart showing inter-relationships of SOG elements, an alphabetical listing of awards, a chronological listing of losses and a listing of known recon and hatchet force operations and the participants. 580 pages. ISBN: 0-9624009-8-X."

[snowmman 3]

I'm misunderstanding something that Billy said in his email to Sluggo.

On page 89 of his book, "Hunting the Jackal" Billy says he was at Fort Bragg (in Texas) in December of 1971.

see here
http://books.google.com/books?id=GdCKyGhie_QC&pg=PA89

This was because, on page 88, he said his orders were up in Vietnam, in November 1971, and he had a conversation with the Op 35 commander (Colonel Roger Pezzelle) about whether to extend his tour. He evidently returned to Fort Bragg.

http://books.google.com/books?id=GdCKyGhie_QC&pg=PA88

So Billy was not involved with CCN, SOG Operations in November 1971.

Could he provide more detail?

I'm also curious about how Billy was concerned about being an "armchair" sergeant major while at Fort Bragg. (from the book, page 89)

Thanks. It'd be great to flesh this out.

[BruceSmith 3]

Congratulations, Sluggo, you got more from Billy than I did. The email I sent to Billy Waugh today received the terse comment "I am not interested in speaking of the matter."

Yet, he has a suspect or a lead at his fingertips, and is knowledgeable of DBC details, ie: date.

Hmmm. my curiosity grows.

[BruceSmith 3]

Quote

What does everyone think about Billy W's resemblance to the FBI sketches? Sluggo? Safe? Snow? Orange? Others?

Quote

The age-progression sketch is striking, 377. It's got my attention.

Also, your comments about McCoy possibly faking a psychiatric episode to set-up a possible insanity plea if caught is intruiging. It's certainly a possibility, and worthy to keep on file.

But the read I get on McCoy from Calame, Rhodes and Tosaw is not someone who was that deliberate. Smart, yes. But planning a fall-back legal ploy? Hmmm, no. Afterall, he had no real plan after landing with the $500,000 and was shoving it into a stovepipe in the basement. Feds found it straight-away.

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[skyjack71 0]

I also sent an email to Waugh and this is what I got.


Date: 7/4/2009 5:32:24 AM Central Daylight Time
From: BILLYWCCN
To: HOMES4UBYJO

Mam, I believe we have exchanged email previously, and I believe we ceased and desisted, after a few accusations made v. me.
I sure as heck was not Dan Cooper, but believe I know who was.
Take care, Billy Waugh sends

A photo was in this space but I will have to attach it for you to view.

The date and time I sent my email.
In a message dated 7/4/2009 4:11:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

Note:
I do not remember emailing him, as I have no file of that address and it may have been during the time my computer crashed and using my husbands.

Snowmman: I have read every thread you have posted and viewed all the photos. I found somethings that the rest of you would not notice (because I am Weber specific). Remember when I would talk about Mouse and Mickey Mouse and Mighty Mouse - well, that is mentioned in the writings of Waugh.

It was something Duane had said and because of an item he had in that "special place" that he was so protective of. This is why I kept on and on about the Mouse. I took a lot of ridicule and some very bad things off of one of the posters who came back with some really nasty stuff. But right now I think it was all worth it...now I know.

There are those who corresponded with me from the very beginning in 1997 who are aware that I have questioned this Mouse and Mickey Mouse thing all of these yrs and yet NO ONE ever told me it was connected to Viet Nam. I also questioned phrases Duane used that were Vietamese.

No, you are not going to hear me go on and on - about this, but it is all somewhat ODD to me. Do I think Duane was in Viet Nam? - NO, but I do think he had some kind of exposure. Perhaps just the times.

I have an old large pocket knife that looks like it has been buried with a piece of cord in it. Sluggo saw this when he was here and dismissed it because it was dirty dirty - and it was not pink. I seriously doubt that if buried with the money for many yrs and having been wet it would still be pink. It looks like the core threads of the chute cord in a photo one of you posted.

Also when a man is cutting a cord he forms a loop and then pulls the knife thru the loop to make the cut. Did the FBI take DNA from the cord and did they protect that cord from being handled over the yrs.

Snowmman: In Tosaw's interview with Tina - or one of her interviews there was a mention of a green bag - sticking out from a compartment of the briefcase. This was only mentioned over the yrs in one source? I wonder if it was army green or bright green...and what was the fabric?

I have enjoyed just lofting and reading and doing my own thing - I am not technical savy as the rest of you nor am I objective about my subject, I would appreciate if someone will address these in a PM so that I do not take away from the direction this thread has taken.

I have verified that Duane's 2 stepsons where in the service - in 1968 - one was stationed at Breming and the other in (Special Forces)...and also stationed in WA. Both were still active duty in 1971.

Any question can be directed thru PM or my regular email.

The attachment is what Waugh sent in his email. I think it might be his mililtary way of making a joke..."I believe I know who was" and then there is the Comic Cover in the email body.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

I only posted again because 377 is a nice guy.

With the return of georger and skyjack71, I have to get out again.
(preserve my limited sanity).

Thanks guys

[Orange1 0]

awww, Snow...

The Dan Cooper comic Jo posted is interesting. Of course, there were a lot of French in Vietnam (Indochine) to be exposed to this, as we have discussed before.

Is Waugh saying he also thinks the name came from the comic?

When he says he knew who Cooper was - is this Ted Bradon? Does anyone know how to stop Google giving you "Brandon" which it thinks you mean?

Snow - all those SOG guys you mentioned #s for - do we have any idea how many of those were involved in jumping?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Add: I think it's a pity Waugh thinks he is being accused. I think he would have been a fascinating and valuable contributor to the forum as a first-hand witness to the stuff we are getting 2nd hand.
Billy, if you are still reading this forum, any chance you would reconsider participating here, even for a brief while?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I have e-mailed Waugh to make sure the spelling was correct in his initial e-mail to me. No response yet (and I may not get one).

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[377 22]

Quote

Mam, I believe we have exchanged email previously,

Note the salutation: Mam. Ring a bell?

I missed it, but one far wiser than I did not.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Maybe I'm just being naive, and maybe Waugh doesn't really know who Cooper was (after all he wouldn't be the first who thought he knew!!) but if it is... or if he is close... I must admit to some mix of excitement but also satisfaction that our deductions have turned out to be logical

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

Mam, I believe we have exchanged email previously,

Note the salutation: Mam. Ring a bell?

I missed it, but one far wiser than I did not.

377

Ooh, well spotted (whoever the wise person was).

Question: am I correct (or am i misinformed by movies) that the usual address by a military person to a woman is "ma'am"?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

I'll admit it. I'm weak.
One parting thought.

Obviously the whole FBI thing is bullshit.
If there was a real investigation, we'd only need to ask one question.

When was Billy Waugh investigated? And why was he ruled out? Billy can answer. Or FBI. If he was investigated and ruled out, we could review whether that was done correctly or based on faulty information.

Anyone with half a brain realizes that he's a credible suspect.

The 1400 suspect list is total bullshit. That should be evident to everyone also.

Okay, I'm really gone now.

(edit) Can make bets on whether he was investigated. I don't know. I guess I'll place my bet on "he wasn't"..or passed over without real investigation because Himmelsbach is an asshole.

[377 22]

Wish we could have a solution to the Snowmman vs Georger and Jo split.

Snow adds so much value, I just hate to see him depart.

Any ideas?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.