DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Billy Waugh is mentioned in the reports discussed.

Good pic of the gear in some pics attached (real, from the 1971 jumps).

I included pics of Billy because of his age. (remember how we were saying people's knowledge of Vietnam was bogus..the age of various players)

When do you think Billy was born?

1929 (december 1 actually)

Funny. He was 42 when they did the HALO jumps in 1971.
He retired (Sergeant Major) April 1, 1972. Eventually worked for the CIA starting in 1977.
Was Green Beret since 1954. He was in Korea in April 1951.
He was airborne qualified shortly after he enlisted in 1948.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Waugh


Anyone guess his age right?

The "COUNTERPART" is him and I guess a 'nard? after a long operation.

THere are more pics with some of his cohorts.

(edit) pics are from http://macvsog.cc/photo.htm#Photo%20Gallery

(edit) in his book Hunting The Jackal, Billy says he's five foot nine. (page 147)

[councilman24 37]

Too bad the recreation folks couldn't adjust a parachute harness. Note the position of the capwells in the recreation and the photo of the actuall jump. I didn't read the recreation website to see if they really jumped it. But I'd be worried they'd break their neck when the chest strap hit their chin.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[snowmman 3]

no they didn't jump it. just posing for pics. You can compare to the Billy Waugh pics for accuracy.

hey I just noticed the first HALO, they jumped thru rain clouds, and rescue craft couldn't pick them up because of bad weather afterwards.

Talking about the jump:

"Within 2,000 feet, however, the team hit rain clouds and lost sight of each other. Hill, who could not see his altimeter, remembered from the team’s weather briefing that the first of two cloud layers ended at 4,000 feet, at which time he began counting before pulling his ripcord.
...
Separated on the ground, in enemy territory, with poor weather closing in, and without maps of the area, RT FLORIDA’s members focused on staying alive.
...
Two days of poor weather kept rescue aircraft on the ground.

(edit) Added June 1971 pic of Bath, Waugh and Campbell, rigged up. Not as good, but you can see their gear from the front.
"

[councilman24 37]

I've been on a sport jump where the base of the clouds was 4000' on the way up. After 4000' of freefall through the clouds with water going up our googles we hit 3500' without breaking out. At 3000' we finally did. One of the only jumps I missed the LZ by over half a mile.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[377 22]

Quote

It was not until 2 December that a pair of CH-53 helicopters attempted an exfiltration. Hill recalls that the team had chosen to use the URC-10 survival radios, as their prime means of communications. This later proved to be a saving grace decision. Hill’s radio was soaked enough that he lost voice communications. Al Mosiello, an old radio operator, was able to remain in contact with Hill by Hill sending CW (Morse Code) to the Covey.

Odd choice of primary comm radio uness they were modified. The URC 10 communicates only on 243.0 MHz AM, the military aircraft distress frequency (243.0 is first harmonic of civil 121.5 MHz distress freq so miltary UHF ADFs can locate civilian ELTs).

Anyway... the VC had captured numerous survival radios from downed US pilots. 243.0 was heavily monitored as it gave an indication of a bailout and at least a rough location of a pilot to capture.

Brooke is da man on Nam radios:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/URC10b.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.prc68.com/I/Survival.shtml&usg=__CSI0-ZSP7-o_utknavOXdycAVqQ=&h=335&w=384&sz=27&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=zRmw-RzCwSShBM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3DURC%2B10%2Bradio%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GPEA_enUS294US294%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I've been on a sport jump where the base of the clouds was 4000' on the way up. After 4000' of freefall through the clouds with water going up our googles we hit 3500' without breaking out. At 3000' we finally did. One of the only jumps I missed the LZ by over half a mile.

yeah. I was just noting the similarity to the Cooper jump conditions.
I suspect the people the FBI talked to, in the military in 1971, were not even aware of what jumpers were doing in Vietnam at the time. I mean, when Cooper does it, we're told experienced jumpers wouldn't do it. But here experienced jumpers did the exact same thing (night, rain clouds, freefall) for no good reason.

I mean these are experienced jumpers, jumping in bad conditions for no good reason. (the mission was experimental, it didn't need a date)

I think a lot of this HALO stuff was testosterone driven..i.e. a couple of guys pushed to do it, just because they knew they could. It turned out to be a bad idea, and they were told to stop.

How come no one has commented on Billy Waugh's similarity to the Cooper sketch? I've read some stuff where he says he was helping CIA projects while still in military. He's got quite a career. 8 purple hearts, which I think ties the record? He's quite the famous NCO/SF guy.

(edit) a link for 377 (radios)
http://hereford.ampr.org/history/portable.html
history of military portable radios (including survival radios).
I thought I read there about how they switched frequencies because of overuse of 243 (some beacons were using that from parachute drops? etc)

[377 22]

Quote

How come no one has commented on Billy Waugh's similarity to the Cooper sketch?

I'll comment. Damned good match Snow, except he has Duane's ears .

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

How come no one has commented on Billy Waugh's similarity to the Cooper sketch?

I'll comment. Damned good match Snow, except he has Duane's ears .

377

5'9". 42 in 1971. interesting he retired in '72 and then got hooked up with CIA in 1977. Supposedly he was helping CIA back in the 60s while still in military.
Birthday 12/1 (week after Cooper).

Here's a pic of him with a CIA spook in the '60s.

He was injured, and there's a shot of him shaking hands with LBJ in the '60s also.

Perfect guy, since he'd be considered untouchable...i.e. true blue, etc. His HALO was the one where the guy went MIA/KIA..never extracted although they found CAR shells etc.

attached more current photo (still alive apparently)
There's a shot from 2004 where he hooked up (annually?) with SOG buddies and jumped at fort bragg.

Also for fun attached a crazy picture from the Ravens in 'nam (air america). Did they do this photo as a joke? (rockets on like a cessna single prop? looks like a setup)

[377 22]

Quote

I suspect the people the FBI talked to, in the military in 1971, were not even aware of what jumpers were doing in Vietnam at the time. I mean, when Cooper does it, we're told experienced jumpers wouldn't do it. But here experienced jumpers did the exact same thing (night, rain clouds, freefall) for no good reason.

You raise an interesting point Snowmman. The FBI apparently did not know about all this SE Asia jump stuff you and Orange are now unearthing. That lack of knowledge slanted their investigation. They thought the NORJACK jump in those conditions from that plane indicated a total lack of knowledge. They were not looking for anyone who made similar jumps because they didn't think similar jumps had been made. There might have been some good suspects who were never even considered.

As I said in an earlier post, I bet with just a little luck Billy Waugh or any of his jumpmates could have landed alive and made a successful post landing egress on the NORJACK jump. If they were working as a team with the right radio gear the chances get even better.

All this goes with the usual caveat: NOTHING indicates Cooper had radio gear or was working with an accomplice.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[quade 4]

Quote

yeah. I was just noting the similarity to the Cooper jump conditions.
I suspect the people the FBI talked to, in the military in 1971, were not even aware of what jumpers were doing in Vietnam at the time. I mean, when Cooper does it, we're told experienced jumpers wouldn't do it. But here experienced jumpers did the exact same thing (night, rain clouds, freefall) for no good reason.

They were also special operations, well prepared and equipped. They had the full cooperation of the pilot in trying to spot the plane.

Big difference.

It makes no sense whatsoever that any of these guys would ever plan the Cooper job and not bring his own rig. They would have gear to deal with the exposure issues. They'd be wearing better shoes. Think about it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[377 22]

Quote

It makes no sense whatsoever that any of these guys would ever plan the Cooper job and not bring his own rig. They would have gear to deal with the exposure issues. They'd be wearing better shoes. Think about it.

I am not sure I agree with you about the rig Quade. I cannot, however, argue your point about the shoes. No experienced jumper would go out with those shoes on that jump.

Might he have had other shoes? Doesnt make a lot of sense to plan an in flight shoe change. You could find shoes that would not tag you as a potential hijacker that would be OK for the jump.

If Cooper brought his own chute and abandoned it in the woods, it provides something traceable. Making the cops bring you some elses gear makes some sense.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

quade,

Prove that Cooper did not bring his own rig.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[quade 4]

Quote

Prove that Cooper did not bring his own rig.

It's nearly impossible to "prove" any negative argument.

For instance, you can't "prove" monsters didn't live under the stairs yesterday. You might be able to set up a camera and show they currently don't live there, but you pretty much can't prove there weren't there yesterday.

So, no, I can't "prove" he didn't, but there is nothing to indicate he did and if he did, then why on earth would he ask for the four sport rigs? It just wouldn't make sense since it tips off what he might be doing. A MUCH better plan would be to not even hint at jumping until he's ready to do so.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

quade,

Quote

It makes no sense whatsoever that any of these guys would ever plan the Cooper job and not bring his own rig.

I fully understand that you cannot “prove” a negative hypotheses. That’s what prompted my response, I was pointing out that you have assumed and incorporated into your logic something that you cannot prove.

About a year ago I told a story about the stuff that one could drag on a plane back in 1971 without even raising an eyebrow. Back then, if it fit in the overhead or under the seat in front of you, it was “good to go”. No one seemed to give a FF what it was.

All I’m saying is that a confederate could have brought a chute on an earlier leg of the flight. (Remember William Cooper?) I can’t prove that, but I can’t eliminate it either.


Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

quade said:

Quote

They were also special operations, well prepared and equipped. They had the full cooperation of the pilot in trying to spot the plane.

We don't know if Cooper had any training.
The Vietnam HALO spots were off sometimes.

Their gear? modified T-10's. We talked about jumping with rounds. Sure they got a little steering, but basically they're jumping rounds at night.

There is some detail about how they used a jeep light with a battery to charge the fluorescent panel the leader jumped with. And the spray on stuff. And then on at least one jump they tried a light.

But they admit they weren't the greatest jumpers. And you can see the testosterone here, rather than any clear operational or strategic thinking:

Waugh put it this way:

“We (at SOG) were not the best HALO men assembled, as formation flying was not our specialty. Since it was not, we devised a plan that each man, being separated in the jungle (a given), was a single Recon Man, and should kick ass and take names by blowing Charlie away with TAC AIR (on his own home ground). Recon Company CCN did put HALO into fact, as a silent way to arrive at work.”

In terms of gear, I thought this comment was funny:
"The parachutes were OD T-10's with a 7-cell TU modification. Upon opening on the insertion, I thought I had holes in my chute, but upon closer inspection I realized that they had given me an old chute with white patches on it. I guess someone knew they weren't getting this chute back and didn't want to waste the newer chutes.”

If you read all the details, it seems to me the Vietnam HALO jumps were a cluster fuck.
This idea that they were way sophisticated, I think is just myth.
Obviously it was cutting edge for the times. High risk. People died. Scary. But everything says cluster fuck, to me.

(edit) There's plenty of evidence that backs me up. But the guy jumping with his mines armed? and getting his ass blown up as a result on landing? WTF?

(edit) I also thought it was interesting Billy Waugh arguably fit, in some strange way, the "stuck middle manager" profile of Ckret's...i.e. he rose to the most senior NCO rung: Sergeant Major . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergeant_major
Maybe that's all he wanted. Who knows. After retiring in '72 he went to work for the US postal service. Really. (until he hooked up again with CIA in '77).

He worked for Edwin P. Wilson, the guy who eventually sold arms to Libya. (and got convicted for it). What's criminal, anyhow, when you really think about it? :) Waugh didn't get prosecuted, though he was in Libya.

(edit) although he retired in '72, he left Vietnam in December 1971. reference: http://books.google.com/books?id=E9v2t2FQffYC&pg=PA151&dq=%22Billy+departed+Vietnam%22&lr=

[Orange1 0]

Quote

quade,

Prove that Cooper did not bring his own rig.

Sluggo_Monster

No, no, Sluggo don't go down that road. Next we'll be asked to prove that X, Y and Z were not Cooper... ...no, let's not go down that road. The discussion is much more fruitful in its current form.

On the rig subject, though. Quade, et al: why would Cooper have had his own rig in the first place? If we are looking at military jumpers, I'm sure not each and every one of them was a sport jumper too. Remember the transcript mentions McChord; Cooper expected (apparently) to be given a military rig. Maybe he just didn't have his own to begin with. The argument is at least as strong for a smokejumper etc and even stronger for say a loadmaster. Someone who has jumped or at least been trained how to pull a ripcord, but whose experience of this always consisted of being handed a rig by someone else...?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

source:
http://books.google.com/books?id=GdCKyGhie_QC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=%22billy+waugh%22+November+1971&source=bl&ots=u6Ak5x11Iz&sig=JeJ9qqsYHPaeTH8Af48TvofWM3w&hl=en&ei=iytNStHTC4bYtgOkxaG1BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

page 88

"The distasteful retreat from Vietnam was a pivotal point in my career. My orders were up in November 1971, and I discussed them with the Operation 35 commander, Colonel Roger Pezzelle. The orders were to return to Fort Bragg, so I needed to make a decision - once again - on whether to extend my tour of duty.

The colonel quietly told me, "Billy, the United States has lost heart for Vietnam. We will be closing CCN and CCC, so you may as well go back to Fort Bragg while you have the orders. SOG is finished as of March 1972."

This fine former OSS officer was explaining to me that we were going to give the country to the NVA. As he did, I thought, "What a perfectly fucking shame. Goddamn, why did we allow our lads to die? What a goddamn travesty this is."



..I shook my head sadly and slowly. We looked each other in the eye. I saw tears in his eyes, and I knew he saw them in mine. The war in Vietnam, for me, ended precisely at that moment.

When I returned to Fort Bragg and the 5th Special Forces Group (A) in December of 1971, I had to find out what what an armchair sergeant major was required to do. It was new to me; ....

They then wanted to ship him to Fort Devens, Massachusetts to 10th Special Forces Group. He says "no way".. (page 89)
apparently he went to Pentagon to try to resolve it. He couldn't. So he retired. (i've not gotten pages 90+ to load, so apparently that's what happened)

[377 22]

Of course there is ZERO evidence that Billy W was DBC, but I think he is a better match for the FBI sketch than Gosset, who was the prior front runner.

I wish some of these Nam HALO insertion guys would post here. I am sure they would think of some stuff that we wouldn't. I'd like to hear if they interacted with any of the CIA recruited smoke jumpers who did stuff in Nam.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Of course there is ZERO evidence that Billy W was DBC, but I think he is a better match for the FBI sketch than Gosset, who was the prior front runner.

I wish some of these Nam HALO insertion guys would post here. I am sure they would think of some stuff that we wouldn't. I'd like to hear if they interacted with any of the CIA recruited smoke jumpers who did stuff in Nam.

377

I think the Vietnam experience for jumpers probably needs to be broken out. I'm not even sure how much the different groups knew at the time about who was doing what.

There was a lot of HALO training. There were a small number of HALO jumps that are common knowledge.

There were a LOT of insertions of recon teams. Don't know how many by parachute. Maybe SL? Remember Delta reported experimenting with HALO also.

The North Vietnam CIA insertions by parachute (they did some marine) are also interesting. Were those HALO or ???

There's a lot of dimensions to all of this.

I think there's a lot of mythology too. I think they were kind of just working it out at the time. New. Experimental. Nothing at all like modern day military.

Every time I read something about Vietnam military, I'm amazed at how much more detail there is. It was a huge complicated multi-dimensional beast. I don't think anyone really knew everything that was going on, at any point in time.

Yeah, if anyone out there has any related first person info, that would be really cool to hear about.

I mean, I had harped before on the sport jumping scene in Saigon during the late 60s before. Sport jumping in a war zone.
Yet another dimension.

So all sorts of stuff.

(edit) oh you were talking about sketch matches (doesn't everyone match the sketch :). reposting the one freaky 1971 photo in my mind. Has a reasonable slight build too, which is good for a Cooper match.

Oh and on his web site, there are some more recent photos from work in Afghanistan etc for CIA. I'll attach those too. And some other older ones from the 60s.

(edit) note that BW's photo with LBJ is also on the wall in the first photo. The woman was famous in SF circles for some reason, I forget why. doesn't matter.

[JerryThomas 0]

Orange 1 Yes I am very familliar with all the ccn op's i nam It is nothing but bad menories for me. I have posted in the past about these operation's and I Know more than most can find on line or in file's that have been declasified. This is what the information that most of you can read. or Shall I say discover. At any rate to have been there is something that is different. Simple headquarters was Da Nang. The Opps was out of MacV Then there were others involved. It is still A night mare for me. Yes Jumps were made And they were not as reported. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Hi I'm Impressed of your Knowledge on the nam Jumps, I know How you found them, My cousin did the same thing over a year ago. However he passed away on the 25 of Jan this year of agent orange cancer. he and I served together in vietnam his name was Jhony Mike Jeeters Sr. He was a very good man. There was 600 People that atended his funeral along with a privately owend D model hellicopter. Bought and restored by a vet.The funeral was in denton Texas. Snow mman I do believe that you are a great tribute to a lot on this forum and that a lot of the info you find is great. however it is not the hole story, there is alot of unwritten factor's not included in the reality of the situations of that era. This is fact . Jerry Ps we were not stationed in the same Unit I was Stationed far north of him and yes I was involved with CCN and only attached to that on a iregular bassis as was most it all units

[JerryThomas 0]

Quade Sorry if I have offended anyone, that is not my intitions. I guess what I'm realy saying is that although, it may seem like cooper could have been military related it was not with the US. I do believe that he may have been a Canadian as I have posted in the past.However his experience in survival and parachutes is will behind the knowledge of a 2 month old child. Just my opinion But justly founded. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

Hi Jerry
Yes I know nothing about Vietnam. I actually know little about most wars fought in the world.
If you have information that can educate me, I will listen.
I usually ignore people who say "I know stuff" though.
Usually they don't. Maybe you do, though? I can't know. I don't know you.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman Yes I do.However it is nothing more than bad memeries for me.I realy don't like talking about it much. Lost to many good friends and I'm still loosing them . Due to agent orange cancer and suicide. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

The first successful HALO jump in Vietnam, was the fourth one.
8/10/1971

Interestingly it was led by Captain James Storter, the recon company commander. He picked 3 experienced skydivers from his recon men, and attended a HALO refresher course in Saigon.

Storter had exaggerated his qualifications. His only HALO training was that refresher course.

Two weeks training and they did their jump. Night, moonlight.

No injuries. C-130 at 16,000 ft.
Four days in the DZ. No detection.

Storter completed his Ranger career by serving as a Ranger Instructor and Commander of the Florida Ranger Camp.

details on the jumps on page 328 and 329 of this book.
http://books.google.com/books?id=JYT5UO_VHHcC&pg=PA328

Storter's team obviously was able to piggyback off the knowledge of previous people.

some details on Storter's career, from https://www.benning.army.mil/rtb/Hall_of_Fame/Halloffame12/storter.pdf
Also attached.

For a good detail of Waugh's HALO, revisit this link (all pretty much got injured..Waugh was leader, although some accounts put the kid who went MIA/KIA as leader which I believe is untrue)

http://www.taskforceomegainc.org/S176.htm

This account, the most detailed I can find, mentions heavy rain approaching the ground:

"Unable to see SSgt. Bath's light, the other team members drifted away in the heavy rain, and though unable to see the others, Billy Waugh was able to make out an NVA truck convoy on a road about 5 miles north boldly driving with lights on."