DB Cooper

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

377 and all,

I’m at work right now, and getting ready to fly home, so I don’t have a lot of time for a long explanation.

Disregard my next to last post! The one about N467US not having a “Cabin Pressure Delta Gauge.”

I found out that N467US DID have a “Cabin Pressure-Altitude Rate of Change (Delta) Gauge.”

Sorry for the misleading info. I should have done better research.

Thanks,
Sluggo_Monster

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[SchlitznGrins 0]

Welcome Back Snow...It is about time! So you and 377 been hanging out eh? How do I get in on some of that action?

Any new developments the last 2 months or so?

[377 22]

Quote

377 and all,

I’m at work right now, and getting ready to fly home, so I don’t have a lot of time for a long explanation.

Disregard my next to last post! The one about N467US not having a “Cabin Pressure Delta Gauge.”

I found out that N467US DID have a “Cabin Pressure-Altitude Rate of Change (Delta) Gauge.”

Sorry for the misleading info. I should have done better research.

Thanks,
Sluggo_Monster

No prob Sluggo. Occam wins again. What was more likely, conspiratorial crew lies or the presence of a cabin climb rate indicator? You posted the correction just in time before I put my foot too far down my mouth.

Maybe I should lighten up on the money find suspicions too, but I just keep asking myself about the odds of finding that cash...

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

okay here's the frequency I'm on.

You know we post and post and post, and it's actually kind of a shock to the system when we meet someone in person.

I buried all the cannon, hid the AKs, turned off the electric fences, got the crocs out of the moat, fed the dogs, and 377 stopped by the fort for an hour visit. He apparently made it back alive, I think only because he was smart enough to leave before it got dark.

He really is a great guy. There's only the faintest whiff of a lawyer off him.

We only had a short visit, and 377 is as much as an enigma to me as before.

BUT: I got this desire to embarass the hell out of him and get him hooked up. Maybe it's really me thinking about myself..but here goes:

377 needs some big jump.

You know what I mean?

He needs 3, or 20, guys to jabber at him about what they're all going to do that all sounds sane when they're in the bar together going over the details, but when they all go home alone, they sit in bed thinking "is this nuts? it seems doable. But people will think we're nuts. Maybe it is nuts and we just can't tell".

well not that bad, but you know what I mean? It's gotta have gear, some balls, some skill, some art. ....

I wanna see 377 get out there closer to the edge. Sure he's been jumping forever. All you guys have. But he's been too comfortable for too long (maybe that's a good thing when the other side of the coin is bouncing!). Hey the nice thing about being older is that it's not so bad if you go in? had a good life so far?

So who the hell is out there in Northern California? You gotta have some mad skillz cuz 377 ain't no slouch...If you're nuts you gotta be able to hide it enough to be slightly presentable..

I want to hear about some cool big jump with 377 in it. 377 may think he's got a plan, but I don't think so. He needs to get all swept up in some crazy big jump plan.

Done by the end of summer. So you got some planning time.

So talk about that..377's big jump.

Yikes. I have managed to do 40 years of injury free jumping avoiding stuff like Snow is suggesting. I recall so many scenes like this:

"yeah, sounds like a really great jump idea. I'd definitely join you but I:

a. have to travel that weekend
b. am a bit rusty for serious RW, maybe next time
c. have to send in my Cypres for a 4 year service"

etc.

Actually I am planning a jump in October that will combine one of our mutual hobbies with skydiving. Not very daring but novel. It will involve high altitude oxygen gear and HF radios. If you started training now Snow you could definitely join us on the jump. We could really use your expertise. I have a spare rig that would be perfect for you so you wouldn't have to buy one. If you could figure out how to operate HF QRP RTTY under canopy it would rock the staid world of ham radio. I bet we could make the cover of CQ magazine.

It is really odd how many of the people who post here have amateur radio as one of their hobbies including Sluggo, Georger, Snowmann, Guru, 377, and others I am sure. What is the connection Kenneth?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Your turn Safe. We have two weeks of peace in the valley. Let's put it to good use. Guru, you too.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

"yeah, sounds like a really great jump idea. I'd definitely join you but I:

a. have to travel that weekend
b. am a bit rusty for serious RW, maybe next time
c. have to send in my Cypress for a 4 year service

I was up in NorCal (Marysville) jumping a demo last week...wish I would have known, could have helped ya kick off some of the rust!

...and don't gimme the cypress service excuse, us old guys don't need batteries to Skydive!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[377 22]

Twardo,

Thanks for the thoughts, but I dont have a PRO ticket or enough balls to jump into tiny landing areas on windy days like you guys do. I like watching demo jumps though. Let me know know when you are doing another Norcal demo. I rarely miss an airshow if it is within driving distance.

I have done two cutaways and have never had to use an AAD but I think they are a great idea. I once did a magic carpet jump at WFFC and got kicked in the head so hard I was seeing stars. It is times like that where I am glad I am jumping with batteries just in case.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

You know we post and post and post, and it's actually kind of a shock to the system when we meet someone in person.

I buried all the cannon, hid the AKs, turned off the electric fences, got the crocs out of the moat, fed the dogs, and 377 stopped by the fort for an hour visit. He apparently made it back alive, I think only because he was smart enough to leave before it got dark.

Gotta admit that I was pleasantly surprised meeting Snowmman. Not a trace of venom or sarcasm, proving that online and offline personalities often have no correlation. Snow is a smart warm hospitable guy who is a real doer. You should see all his impressive projects. He builds the stuff I only daydream about.

He may not be joking about the cannons. I did see evidence of something that could launch a projectile over some impressive distances. No need to call Homeland Security Georger, it was used in furtherance of our mutual hobby.

I really hope Snow will rejoin the forum, even if only for the 2 week Jo-Georger cease fire.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Ditto, here. snowmman is a lot nicer outside the presence of Jo and georger.

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[JerryThomas 0]

Sluggo I'm headed back to the woods on the 26th is there any info you need from me are somthing tou would like for me to check out.Glad to hear from you snowman.Jerry

[377 22]

Too quiet here.

Please start posting. Otherwise it will look like Jo and Georger are the only people who keep things going here.

I still think Cooper's rig has to be out there somewhere. It would have made no sense to bring it out with him and no sense to do more than a cursory job of hiding it.

We have a door placard and a money find saying we are looking in the right general area.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

Sluggo I'm headed back to the woods on the 26th is there any info you need from me are somthing tou would like for me to check out.Glad to hear from you snowman.Jerry

Jerry,

Do you expect to find Cooper's remains or just a rig?
After this many years is it possible that he went in, but we would be unable to prove it?

Steve Fosset had only been missing for a year or so and his remains were widely scattered by animals. After decades I wonder what would have remained around his crash site?

I do think Cooper's rig is out there somewhere awaiting discovery.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[nigel99 608]

Quote

Too quiet here.

Please start posting. Otherwise it will look like Jo and Georger are the only people who keep things going here.

I still think Cooper's rig has to be out there somewhere. It would have made no sense to bring it out with him and no sense to do more than a cursory job of hiding it.

We have a door placard and a money find saying we are looking in the right general area.

377

Ok to throw some questions into the pot for discussion. If a 727 is travelling at 180MPH (from memory the cooper exit speed) with the air-stairs open there will be a pressure differential between the interior and exterior of the plane. However behind the aircraft there will be a defined zone of "dead air" before the wake is noticeable. From personal experience exiting a CASA 212 at a reasonable speed - there was a definite "zone" external to the aircraft (admittedly less than 6 foot) where there was no noticeable slipstream. Therefore what is the likely induced pressure differential within the plane with airstairs open/closed?

However when a "disturbance" is introduced to a moving flow (air stream in our case) a shock wave is produced - exactly the same as ripples in a stream. As discussed earlier people can count jumpers exiting simply by the "feel". I believe that there is a good chance that these pressure waves COULD register on instruments - but I am sceptical that the effect would propagate all the way to the cockpit. Granted back then cockpits were not behind lock and key but we are told that the curtains at least were closed and the pressure wave will dissipate along the length of a rather large plane.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[377 22]

You sound like an engineer Nigel. Are you one? We have quite a few engineers and scientists here and I think they add a lot of value

I had never thought of the wave propagation/dissipation issue before. You might have a good point.

I do know that the rate intruments are VERY sensitive to dp/dt. I have one (a pilots climb rate indicator +/- 0-6K fpm). If I put it in a sealed blown up baggie along with a cabin altimeter instrument (single pointer type) and jut tap the bag with my finger, the rate instument pointer fluctuates a LOT and the altimeter barely moves at all.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Quote

Your turn Safe. We have two weeks of peace in the valley. Let's put it to good use.

Sounds good.

I've been slowly tunnel training, although I have a VERY long ways to go (probably about 59 more hours worth)... will get there someday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IBGwGfnnoE

Is there any word on Kaye's final write up?

I'm hoping to do a series of videos on youtube explaining those "9" solutions - of course there's more depending on variants and depending on what assumptions you want to put into the equation.

I want to hear more about this meeting with Snow. You and him are the two main honchos as far as I'm concerned.

[377 22]

Safe,

Is that really you in the video??? Duuuude, you are doing GREAT!!!! I am very impressed, really.

Just relax, arch a bit more and you are ready for AFF big time. Actually you are ready now, but why not shock your instructors with perfect form on AFF 1?

What tunnel is that in the video? BTW your tunnel exit on one of your earliest flights was really good. Almost all newbies flub that part badly.

I'll let Snow take the next round in describing our meeting as he is probably more protective of his privacy than I am of mine. I'll let him set the tone. I don't want to say too much. I really liked Snow and most people would have a similar reaction. I plan to see him again.

Not a peep from TK. Wish I knew what he was up to.

Welcome back!

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[nigel99 608]

Quote

You sound like an engineer Nigel. Are you one? We have quite a few engineers and scientists here and I think they add a lot of value

I had never thought of the wave propagation/dissipation issue before. You might have a good point.

I do know that the rate intruments are VERY sensitive to dp/dt. I have one (a pilots climb rate indicator +/- 0-6K fpm). If I put it in a sealed blown up baggie along with a cabin altimeter instrument (single pointer type) and jut tap the bag with my finger, the rate instument pointer fluctuates a LOT and the altimeter barely moves at all.

377

yes guilty - but my type of "waves" go from ~100Mhz to 20GHz.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Safe, 377, and all,


I don’t want to presume that I can speak for Tom Kaye, but I do have some comments in response to Mr. Cracking's and 377's question (and BTW: welcome back Safe).

First, Tom is an eclectic dude with more interest than just about anyone I know. He has responsibilities to a group of Astronomers, a group of Paleontologist, the Burke Museum (in Seattle), family and friends (and, oh yeah, he has some hobbies too!). Just because you don’t hear from him, doesn’t mean he has lost interest. He has an active project that will keep him occupied during June, July and August. I expect we’ll hear from him more often after that.

And number two, the Sci-Team are a bunch of scientist, they think like scientist, work like scientist, and produce results like scientist. They tend to know more and more about less and less. They will take as much time as is needed to investigate everything discovered. So, don’t expect to see results until they have investigated “in-depth” some very minute aspects of the case, and had (at least some informal) peer review. I guess what I’m saying is: “They aren’t working to a schedule, but thoroughly investigating where the evidence leads. So, there is no answer to the question “when?”

The Nat-Geo piece is tentatively scheduled for 07/06/2009 at 10:00 EDT (very much subject to change), so maybe Tom (and Ckret) will have something to say then.


Cheers,

Sluggo_Monster (Enjoying the heat and humidity of Southeast Alabama)

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[BruceSmith 3]

Not a peep from TK. Wish I knew what he was up to.

Welcome back!

377

[BruceSmith 3]

DZ Notes: Phone Conversation with
Captain Bill Rataczak, June 27, 2009.

I've had some lingering questions about a variety of topics discussed here over the past few months and so I call Captain Bill Rataczak for some clarity.

Here's what I’ve gathered from a most-delightful one-hour chat.




1. Where was Flight 305 when the pressure bump occurred?


- “I really don’t know, exactly.”

- Bill said that Flight 305 didn’t have the capacity to determine the exact longitude and latitude, and only the Air-Traffic Controllers would have been able to do that.

- “I told them to mark it on their ‘shrimp boats’ (radar screens) when the pressure bump occurred.”

- “We had the freedom to move outside of Victor-23.”

- The wind was a factor. Bill said the wind blew them to the east, outside of the V-23 boundaries. “How far? Eh….nothing dramatic, maybe a couple miles.”

- Bill does not know if Flt. 305 was east of Portland when it passed by the city, or west, or even if they flew over the city.

- Bill does not know if they were over the Washougal watershed area; in fact, he sounded a little hazy about the importance of the Washougal in terms of assessing the find at Tena’s Bar.

- Bill is convinced that Cooper jumped at the time of the pressure bump.

- Could Flt 305 have been 10-15 miles east of V-23, and thus over the Washougal? “I don’t think it’s impossible.”





2. Who did what:


- Bill and Scotty were swapping legs of the flight throughout the day. Bill flew into Portland, and Capt. Scott flew to Sea-Tac and was at the controls when Florence Schaffner handed him the skyjacking note. Scotty was momentarily distracted and Bill took over communications, dealing with Cooper, radio transmissions, ATCs, NWO, etc. while Scotty could concentrative on flying into Sea-Tac.

- “I passed all the decisions through Scotty, although I often gave him multiple choices. We flew using the ‘fail-safe crew concept,’” which is NWO’s standard op procedure, a consensus-based process of command.

- In Seattle they switched again, and Bill flew the plane from Sea-Tac to Reno.

- Paul Sodherlund, NWO ops officer and flight captain, was in constant contact with 305 during the skyjacking.

- It is my understanding that Bill said Sodherlund drew the rectangular map of probable Cooper landing sites that formed the basis of the FBI’s ground search in the spring of 1972.

- However, “There is a lot of speculation where Cooper landed. It remains an enigma.”



3. Cooper:


- “He knew something about the airplane,” Bill said, based on Cooper’s asking for a 15-degree setting on the wing flaps. “There is a specific 15-degree setting on 727s, and there isn’t one on any other plane- not the 747s,” etc.

- Bill’s tone of voice changes markedly when discussing DB Cooper in personal terms. Stern, almost angrily – more like a soldier discussing combat, and Bill easily uses the metaphor of war. “He threatened to kill us. I have no respect for the man, and he had none for us.”

- Bill wanted to fly over the ocean and re-fuel at San Francisco, LAX or San Diego. “I was thinking: Let’s see how long he can hold his breath with 22 pounds of 20s tied around his waist.”


- Bill flew V-23 because Cooper strongly refused a refueling stop in those California cities, saying “They’re too busy.”

- Cooper’s paper bag: “What was inside we really don’t know.”



4. Reno


- “When we landed at Reno, everything we saw, behind every sagebrush and tree, was a guy in a suit with a dog. As soon as we came to a stop we were surrounded. Every police officer in five states must have been there.”

- From what Bill said it sounds like the plane filled quickly with a lot of law enforcement. It sounded crowded.

- The parachutes were the last to arrive at Sea-Tac, and Cooper called for crew food, which sat uneaten on the front seat of first-class, the entire flight to Reno. According to Bill, the FBI entered the plane with dogs and the first thing the animals did was devour the food.

- Bill did not see Cooper’s tie when he was getting off the plane. “All I remember vaguely seeing were shrouds and a canopy lying around.”

- Bill and the crew assumed Cooper was not on board when they landed at Reno because they called back on the PA insisting that he prepare for landing, specifically insisting that he secure the stairs, and they warned him that they might not be able to take off after re-fueling because the stairs might get damaged. No response from Cooper.

- “Sparks flew when we landed.”

- Bill and Ralph H. discussed the possibilities of accomplices for Cooper. Bill is convinced that Cooper acted alone, and died in the jump.



5. Tina


- “She did a tremendous job, sitting next to him for all those hours.”

- Bill, Scotty and Harold “Andy” Anderson, the flight engineer, bought a bottle of Chanel No. 5 as a ‘thank you’ gift for Tina for her exemplary work and demeanor. Bill wrote on the note, “Every time you use a drop, remember there were three guys sitting in front of you in the cockpit who survived that night because of what you did.”

- Bill worked extensively with Richard Tosaw. Tosaw met with Tina, but it was a one-sided conversation. Regarding her need to talk about Nov. 24, 1971, Bill said: “It was like Tina took a white board and wiped it clean.”



6. FBI


- Bill had “some differences” with the FBI regarding the re-fueling trucks. No details given.

[377 22]

Nice job Bruce!!! Thanks you for doing the interview and posting the results.

We kinda get this folk hero thing going and paint Cooper as a polite nice guy criminal. Rat saw him entirely differently, as a malevolent violent bad guy who he would have liked to drop into the Pacific Ocean.

I wonder why he is so sure Cooper died?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

I've been at the Va hospital in Boise for the past 3 day's . Sorry for not posting. I will be more active in the future.Jerry

[377 22]

If you were the patient I hope you are OK Jerry.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

I'm fine just some permanant nerve damage called neraphathey(sp)In my case it only afects my legg's and feet. It is painfull to walk. But I can deal with it and will continue the search. It is kind of strange. The test . they shock you and they put needles in you.I think it is called a MkG at any rate it was some what painfull. and realy shocking. I realy didn't know my leg and arm's could react the way they did. Jerry

[377 22]

Sounds like peripheral neuropathy Jerry.
It can have lots of causes but one of them is plaque clogging the arteries in your legs. This device can actually go inside the arteries, slice the plaque off the walls and extract it. This may seem off topic but it isn't. We want to keep our man on the ground in top shape for finding DBC artifacts.

Getting the plaque out can prevent further tissue and nerve degradation caused by inadequate blood circulation to the lower parts of you leg and your feet. Once you restore full circulation it is amazing what improvements are seen in pain and mobility.

http://www.ev3.net/peripheral/us/plaque-excision/silverhawk-plaque-excision-system-with-proprietary-mec-technology.htm

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.