DB Cooper

[georger 271]

Quote

not batting for mayfield, but to point out the obvious: until we know exactly where cooper landed, we can't say with certainty that he could not have made a phone call within 1.5-2hrs of landing (sluggo's site says 2 hours)
one thing i do agree with 377, getting an accomplice to make the call without knowledge of where the plane was would have been difficult - and remember the refuelling etc took a lot longer than expected so if the call was a prearranged time it would probably have been earlier. ...unless the paper bag contained a radio of some sort and that's what cooper was doing in the lavatory...

so, now are there any links between teddy and anyone doing those 727 jumps in nam... or do we go with 377's view that it would have been a very open secret among skydivers and the military (and mayfield had both connections).

Ted's only interest is as an envious spectator who
happens to know H after a hijacking by parachute
has occurred in 'Ted's' own backyard!

The guy is a kibitzer. Thats all.

Its funny that Meyers & his buddy would nail Ted
of all people! It proves that if you stand in one
spot long enough 'something will happen'! No
wonder Ted is pissed.

After a major crime you sometimes get two kinds
of calls - cranks and the criminal who did it! That
is the premise Meyers was working from. Meyers
just couldnt tell the difference.

I tend to think Teddy was calling H as much to get
info as to give any. In the meantime Cooper is
dead or long gone .... but Teddy wants to know!
He calls H. He then joins H in the search.

I have no doubt Ted gave H and others his wisdom
about parachuting etc in order to "help", but what
came of it? Nothing.

Compare Teddy to McCoy to get a real scale on this.
Teddy is a Teddy-Bear. That Meyers would seriously
call out Teddy says far more about Meyers than Ted.
Its absurd.

[377 22]

Quote

And, quite frankly, Oscillations were not reported
in the FBI test. (Oscillations~Turbulence? There was
no turbulence during the FBI test) Then can we be assured the Bump was from Cooper leaving the
stairs only vrs. the plane dropping in turbulence
and the stairs slamming backup, with Cooper
already gone before this event?

Strong turbulence could change this whole equation

hmmm... I wonder if the pressure bump might have not been from Cooper's exit but from turbulence? I have always wondered if you could do sort of a flying leap exit out the door rather than walking down the stairs?

Walking down the stairs would create a big deflection as you descended that would result in a big rebound when you jumped. A flying leap might not do much to the stairs if it was made from high up near the pivot point.

I think the sled test proved that a jump off the bottom of the stairs would create a pressure bump, but it doesnt prove that Cooper jumped form the bottom of the stairs. I am trying to think what a skydiver would do? Leap close to the top or walk down to the bottom and step off?

On my DC 9 jet jump I lept. I didnt walk down the ramp, but the ramp was within the fuselage and didnt extend outside like the 727 stairs did.

Orange, what would you have done? Twardo? Any jumper?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

377, bearing in mind i don't have a lot of jumps...but now that you mention it, it seems pretty damn obvious that walking down a flight of stairs sticking out into the air with the kind of relative wind you'd get from a jet, seems pretty dumb - if not physically impossible (for me anyway). I would indeed probably jump from the top if it was possible.

Georger, I am not sure why you are so "anti" Mayfield. Physical stuff one thing, but I am not clear about why you say he does not fit the "profile" ,etc. Can you be a bit more explicit about what you mean?

May or may not be of use, from Wiki:

Quote

Southeast Asia (Indochina Wars):

Special Forces units deployed to Laos as "Mobile Training Teams" (MTTs) in 1961, Project White Star (later named Project 404), and they were among the first U.S. troops committed to the Vietnam War. Beginning in the early 1950s, Special Forces teams deployed from the United States and Okinawa to serve as advisers for the fledgling South Vietnamese Army. As the United States escalated its involvement in the war, the missions of the Special Forces expanded as well. Since Special Forces were trained to lead guerrillas, it seemed logical that they would have a deep understanding of counter-guerrilla actions, which became the Foreign Internal Defense (FID) mission. The 5th Special Forces Group mixed the UW and FID missions, often leading Vietnamese units such as Montagnards and lowland Civilian Irregular Defense Groups. The deep raid on Son Tay, attempting to recover US prisoners of war, had a ground element completely made up of Special Forces soldiers.

The main SF unit in South Vietnam was the 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne). SF soldiers assigned to the 5th Group earned seventeen Medals of Honor in Vietnam, making it the most prominently decorated unit for its size in that conflict. Army Special Forces personnel also played predominant roles in the highly secret Military Assistance Command Vietnam Studies and Observation Group (MACV-SOG), with an extraordinarily large number of covert U.S. military personnel lost MIA while operating on Studies and Observations Group (SOG) reconnaissance missions.

p.s. i doubt any of you are watching but the West Indies just pulled off a brilliant defeat of India in the World T20 cricket tournament. I love the way WI plays because even when it looks like all is lost, they never stop trying and this is one of a couple I have seen now where they snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, and I love the way they are rewarded for their sportsmanship. Completely off topic, and most of you probably don't even know what cricket is , but hey ;) just thought i'd mention it.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 271]

Quote

Quote

And, quite frankly, Oscillations were not reported
in the FBI test. (Oscillations~Turbulence? There was
no turbulence during the FBI test) Then can we be assured the Bump was from Cooper leaving the
stairs only vrs. the plane dropping in turbulence
and the stairs slamming backup, with Cooper
already gone before this event?

Strong turbulence could change this whole equation

hmmm... I wonder if the pressure bump might have not been from Cooper's exit but from turbulence? I have always wondered if you could do sort of a flying leap exit out the door rather than walking down the stairs?

Walking down the stairs would create a big deflection as you decended that would result in a big rebound when you jumped. A flying leap might not do much to the stairs if it was made from high up near the pivit point.

I think the sled test proved that a jump off the bottom of the stairs would create a pressure bump, but iot doesnt prove that Cooper jumped form the bottom of the stairs. I am trying to think what a skydiver would do? Leap close to the top or walk down to the bottom and step off?

On my DC 9 jet jump I lept. I didnt walk down the ramp, but the ramp was within the fuselage and didnt extend outside like the 727 stairs did.

Orange, what would you have done? Twardo? Any jumper?

377


377

Either there was TURBULENCE/severe or there wasn't.
Turbulence is nowhere in the FBI tests or in any
formal accounting of the events say 20:00-20:15.
All formal accounts to date including Ckrtet's, leave turbulence out. That may have been a mistake.

Bohan's report (to Ken Hastings at PDX) is real or
it isn't. I have already reported I tried to find out.
If Bohan's report still exists (which is doubtful)
nobody at PDX or in Continental is going to take
the time today to get to the bottom of this. But I
know for a fact Bohan and Ken Hastings (mgr at
PDX) were personal friends. I think Bohan's report
about turbulence (severe) coming into PDX and
"severe cross winds landing at PDX" - is real.

Scott now alludes to it, actually states it as fact,
in his talk to the flight club in AZ.

How does this impact 'oscillaltions' and 'bump'.
I dont know. Could it impact both? Yes. Are
flap settings during this period important? Yes.
Did this impact Cooper bailing? Probably yes.

How does all of this relate to flight path? Well,
no matter whose version of the FP you take,
Ckret's or H's, "turbulence" seems to be a fact
as stated by both Scott and Bohan.

Who else was flying that area that night and
mentioned turbulence? Is there a third or even
fourth account we dont know about that could have
implications for nailing down the exact route 305
was flying?

If Scott had turbulence at 10K feet or slightly lower
and Bohan has turbulence 4000 feet higher, what
does that imply? (strong convection currents
circulating at least btwn 10k and 14k ft.).

Could the plane dropping in turbulence have
slammed the stairs back up mimicking a jump?
Maybe - Im not sure.

Those are just a few of the things that come to mind
but it is a serious issue never explored before -

[377 22]

Quote

Could the plane dropping in turbulence have
slammed the stairs back up mimicking a jump?
Maybe - Im not sure.

Yes, several things besides Cooper's exit could have caused the stairs to swing up. A sudden drop by the aircraft or an upward gust pentrated by the aircraft could do it. Either could happen in turbulent conditions.

I have stood on the tailgates of Skyvans, CASA 212s and a C 130A. They extend out from the fuselage but not down. You can feel upward deflection being limited by the downlocks if you stand on them during turbulence. If not for the locks they would slam up for sure. In the CASA and Herc the gates are lowered with a powered mechanism, but in the Skyvan you push it down manually. As you push it down in turbulent conditions you can often feel it push back wanting to slam upwards.

You are right Georger, either there was turbulence or there wasn't. In that kind of unstable weather I'd sure bet on a yes. If you add Bohan's report it seems pretty likely that the NWA plane was not having a smooth flight that night in the presumed jump area.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 271]

Quote

377, bearing in mind i don't have a lot of jumps...but now that you mention it, it seems pretty damn obvious that walking down a flight of stairs sticking out into the air with the kind of relative wind you'd get from a jet, seems pretty dumb - if not physically impossible (for me anyway). I would indeed probably jump from the top if it was possible.

Georger, I am not sure why you are so "anti" Mayfield. Physical stuff one thing, but I am not clear about why you say he does not fit the "profile" ,etc. Can you be a bit more explicit about what you mean?

May or may not be of use, from Wiki:

Quote

Southeast Asia (Indochina Wars):

Special Forces units deployed to Laos as "Mobile Training Teams" (MTTs) in 1961, Project White Star (later named Project 404), and they were among the first U.S. troops committed to the Vietnam War. Beginning in the early 1950s, Special Forces teams deployed from the United States and Okinawa to serve as advisers for the fledgling South Vietnamese Army. As the United States escalated its involvement in the war, the missions of the Special Forces expanded as well. Since Special Forces were trained to lead guerrillas, it seemed logical that they would have a deep understanding of counter-guerrilla actions, which became the Foreign Internal Defense (FID) mission. The 5th Special Forces Group mixed the UW and FID missions, often leading Vietnamese units such as Montagnards and lowland Civilian Irregular Defense Groups. The deep raid on Son Tay, attempting to recover US prisoners of war, had a ground element completely made up of Special Forces soldiers.

The main SF unit in South Vietnam was the 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne). SF soldiers assigned to the 5th Group earned seventeen Medals of Honor in Vietnam, making it the most prominently decorated unit for its size in that conflict. Army Special Forces personnel also played predominant roles in the highly secret Military Assistance Command Vietnam Studies and Observation Group (MACV-SOG), with an extraordinarily large number of covert U.S. military personnel lost MIA while operating on Studies and Observations Group (SOG) reconnaissance missions.

p.s. i doubt any of you are watching but the West Indies just pulled off a brilliant defeat of India in the World T20 cricket tournament. I love the way WI plays because even when it looks like all is lost, they never stop trying and this is one of a couple I have seen now where they snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, and I love the way they are rewarded for their sportsmanship. Completely off topic, and most of you probably don't even know what cricket is , but hey ;) just thought i'd mention it.

Im not anti-Mayfield. I like the guy. Hell I would
spend time with that guy and bounce beers.

I am very much anti-Meyers. Meyers went way
beyond bounds and needs a lawyer!

Mayfield was just not Cooper. Mayfield is probably
more curious about who Cooper was than we or
even Meyers is!. Ted has has a good life! M is a
schmuck by comparison. Ted may even wish he had
never made his call to H (to become famous!).
So I like Teddy from afar, but he was not Cooper.

--------------

Congrats on your Cricket. Here its basketball and
LA (Lakers) vs Orlando (The Magic) and my Lakers
won last night. hope LA can pull it off this year.

[georger 271]

Quote

Quote

Could the plane dropping in turbulence have
slammed the stairs back up mimicking a jump?
Maybe - Im not sure.

Yes, several things besides Cooper's exit could have caused the stairs to swing up. A sudden drop by the aircraft or an upward gust pentrated by the aircraft could do it. Either could happen in turbulent conditions.

I have stood on the tailgates of Skyvans, CASA 212s and a C 130A. They extend out from the fuselage but not down. You can feel upward deflection being limited by the downlocks if you stand on them during turbulence. If not for the locks they would slam up for sure.

You are right Georger, either there was turbulence or there wasn't. In that kind of unstable weather I'd sure bet on a yes. If you add Bohan's report it seems pretty likely that the NWA plane was not having a smooth flight that night in the presumed jump area.

377

I am thinking more "sudden drop" due
to turbulence then stairs slam up and the 'bump'.

Key here is there were no "oscillations" during any
FBI tests. Oscillations may have been stairs "oscillating" in the overall conditions: wheels down,
flaps 15 or 30*, plus wind turbulence moving the
whole aircraft around like a wiener in the wind?

The stairs are tucked up under the rear airframe
and so protected from the airstream to some extent.
So what you need is the whole aircraft girating in
order to set up a vibration in the rear stairs extended
out.

The FBI tests had wheels down and flaps at 15 or
30 degrees and still they got no 'oscillations' from
the rear stairs extended, so I have to believe you
need something in addition to wheels and flaps -
you need over-all turbulence (cross winds and
up-down vectored winds).

We also were never told if these stairs retract quickly
or can linger before retracting, once weight is off them?
We assume the stairs were not locked. That has always
been the assumption.

There is also the possibility Cooper could have been out on the stairs when a sudden drop occurred -
and if that happened could Cooper have been thrown off or squashed!?

Put yourself in Scott or Rat's shoes when Turbulence
is added to this equation. The pilot is trying to level
off, slow, keep stable - all in turbulence - to allow
Cooper to bail. Whoever the pilot was, that must
have been a nerve wracking task.

There is one more element to consider.

Scott had already been told to 'land as quickly as possible' AFTER Cooper bailed. If they actually
knew Cooper was gone before PDX, why didnt they
land at PDX? They werent sure Cooper was gone.
And one of th reasons they may not have been sure
is the general turbulence they were flying in, which made it difficult to discriminate signs of a 'jump" vs signs of turbulence, so they went on around PDX
and flew further south -

I think turbulence may have played a role in
everything and we just havent acknowledged that
to date - and the FBI hasnt either!


turbulence

[JerryThomas 0]

Hi: all Sf Units were used as advisors in the early years In Viet Nam along with the austrailians. The Medical personell /Doctors were from Iran and french.Georger Catipilliar Island was recreational so was Government Island Government Island was used for livestock.I believe I've mentioned it before. Boaters fishermen recreactional campers used all these Islands in the past and still do when they can get away with it. I'll call you soon and answer the rest of the questions later. Why? because it is easier than typing.Remember I'm Laisy.It is true that I haven't found anything directly related to cooper.However I still feel the best bet is a on ground search and scientific testing.Here is a good idea or a fact I have found one thing relating to the case. Lets call my search area's DB Cooper Country.That way I can say we all found something. Jerry

[377 22]

Quote

Lets call my search area's DB Cooper Country.That way I can say we all found something. Jerry

Great idea Jerry. I wonder if Sluggo could make us a graphic for a road sign?

YOU ARE NOW ENTERING
DB COOPER COUNTRY

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 271]

Quote

Hi: all Sf Units were used as advisors in the early years In Viet Nam along with the austrailians. The Medical personell /Doctors were from Iran and french.Georger Catipilliar Island was recreational so was Government Island Government Island was used for livestock.I believe I've mentioned it before. Boaters fishermen recreactional campers used all these Islands in the past and still do when they can get away with it. I'll call you soon and answer the rest of the questions later. Why? because it is easier than typing.Remember I'm Laisy.It is true that I haven't found anything directly related to cooper.However I still feel the best bet is a on ground search and scientific testing.Here is a good idea or a fact I have found one thing relating to the case. Lets call my search area's DB Cooper Country.That way I can say we all found something. Jerry

How is Sunday evening for you for a talk?

[377 22]

Quote

I think turbulence may have played a role in
everything and we just havent acknowledged that
to date - and the FBI hasnt either!

Agree Georger. Good point and well worth further inquiry. It raises the possibility that the Cooper exit was nowhere near where most assumed it was. Still, we have that darned Ingram money find which ropes us back into the general area where Jerry is searching.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Thanks Jerry. You're not gonna call me tho cos you don't have my # an d it is bedtime here :)

one more thing before i go for the night, i think Georger is spot on re the role of turbulence not having been looked at properly?
There seems to be this impression that Cooper kind of went out and hung around the stairs a while, that doesn't sound right to me even if we assume he did go down the stairs. Well maybe if he had never jumped he would have been clinging on, but most jumpers i know, only delay exits for (1) waiting for others in RW dive to set up exit (2) spot (3) other aircraft below (4) exit separation from other jumpers, etc, none of these apply in this case. If Cooper was experienced, he would have left thru the door and jumped.
If he was on the stairs when turbulence hit, he fell off ...he was planning to anyway so no big deal. If smashed into the stairs or something, wouldn't the FBI have found some kind of evidence of that?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[JerryThomas 0]

377 Thanks:Maybe Slugo can. Georger Shelly realy appriciated the recognition you gave, her ego went sky Hi. Next thing she'll want to do is skydive. She already stole my new motorcycle. Now she wants to go on road trips. Thanks I realy Needed that. Jerry

[377 22]

Quote

West Indies just pulled off a brilliant defeat of India in the World T20 cricket tournament...most of you probably don't even know what cricket is , but hey ;) just thought i'd mention it

It have a Cricket in my garden and he makes a lot of noise at night. Ckret, on the other hand, remains silent.

BTW, the Indian engineers where I work are PISSED! They take Cricket very seriously and WI has ruined everything.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 271]

Quote

Thanks Jerry. You're not gonna call me tho cos you don't have my # an d it is bedtime here :)

one more thing before i go for the night, i think Georger is spot on re the role of turbulence not having been looked at properly?
There seems to be this impression that Cooper kind of went out and hung around the stairs a while, that doesn't sound right to me even if we assume he did go down the stairs. Well maybe if he had never jumped he would have been clinging on, but most jumpers i know, only delay exits for (1) waiting for others in RW dive to set up exit (2) spot (3) other aircraft below (4) exit separation from other jumpers, etc, none of these apply in this case. If Cooper was experienced, he would have left thru the door and jumped.
If he was on the stairs when turbulence hit, he fell off ...he was planning to anyway so no big deal. If smashed into the stairs or something, wouldn't the FBI have found some kind of evidence of that?

To me, it strengthens the argument Cooper wanted
to bail asap once they had left SEA. No lingering,
turbulence or not. He had to know there was turbulence.

No evidence of blood on the stairs or plane from quash-marks that I know of! Ckret would have
said something - who could resist.

I have to wonder if Bohan and 305 encountered
a small active front moving SW to NE, which might
help confirm the area of the jump if we had data.
Severe cross winds on the ground at PDX (Bohan)
plus hight alt turbulence 10-14,000 feet north of
the Columbia at 20:05 sounds like a small active
fast moving front with strong convective currents
to me - your typical small Fall storm for that area?
I think 377 commented about these before ...

But imagine Cooper calling up and saying "stabilise
this plane!" (in turbulence ~20:05). If I was Rat
I would have called back: "You come up here and fly this thing!" (and a perfect opportunity to dump one
hijacker, except you think he has a bomb so you
dont).

This new fact of turbulence also destroys any thought
I previously had about "fine trim" of the plane during
this period so I am re-thinking things also. Fine trim
to know when somebody has bailed is fiction during
turbulence...

It sure sounds like Cooper was ancy to bail in the
WA-OR area, turbulence or not. He could have just
waited if he knew they were flying south and headed
to calmer conditions? (Would it have been the same
had they taken the coastal route? We will never know)

But, I am sitting here wondering IF Cooper opens
the NB6/8 in strong upward drafts where does that
potentially take him? To Idaho!? Or if he doesnt
open where does he go? Can his money pouch
stay on him? ............. I'll stop. Too many questions.

[JerryThomas 0]

Orange 1 I was refering to calling Georger. In reference to some Info he requested I did not mean to Imply i would call you. Misunderstanding I only call those that request me to call or have given me permission to call them.Or that have requested my # and want to contact me. Jerry

[377 22]

Quote

But, I am sitting here wondering IF Cooper opens
the NB6/8 in strong upward drafts where does that
potentially take him? To Idaho!? Or if he doesnt
open where does he go? Can his money pouch
stay on him? ............. I'll stop. Too many questions.

Check this out. The guy ejected in a violent storm at 47,000 ft. I'd guess his auto opener fired at about 10,000 ft. He spent over half an hour under a canopy very similar to Cooper's.

from Wikipedia:

In the summer of 1959, William Rankin was flying from South Weymouth Naval Air Station, Massachusetts to Beaufort, North Carolina. He was climbing over a thunderhead that peaked at 45,000 ft (13.7 km), when—at 47,000 ft (14.3 km) and at mach 0.82—he heard a loud bump and rumble from the engine. The rpm fell to zero, and the fire warning light flashed.[1] He pulled a lever to deploy auxiliary power, but the lever broke off in his hands. Although the temperature outside was −50°C and he was not wearing a pressure suit, he was forced to eject. At 6:00 pm, he ejected.[1] He suffered immediate frostbite, and decompression caused his eyes, ears, nose, and mouth to start bleeding. His abdomen swelled as if he were pregnant. Pain seared his body, though numbed by the cold. He managed to use his emergency oxygen supply.[1] Five minutes after he left the plane, his parachute still hadn't opened. Finally, still in the upper regions of the thunderstorm, with near-zero visibility, the parachute opened. After ten minutes, when he normally would have already landed, Rankin was still in the air, being carried upward by updrafts and getting hit by hailstones. Violent spinning and pounding caused him to vomit. Lightning appeared, which he described as blue blades several feet thick, and thunder, which was so close he could feel as well as hear it. The rain forced him to hold his breath to keep from drowning. One lightning bolt lit up the parachute, making Rankin believe he had died.[1] Soon, however, conditions calmed, and he descended into a forest. His watch read 6:40 pm. He searched for help and eventually was admitted into a hospital at Ahoskie, North Carolina.[1] He suffered from frostbite welts, bruises, and severe decompression.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 271]

Quote

Quote

I think turbulence may have played a role in
everything and we just havent acknowledged that
to date - and the FBI hasnt either!

Agree Georger. Good point and well worth further inquiry. It raises the possibility that the Cooper exit was nowhere near where most assumed it was. Still, we have that darned Ingram money find which ropes us back into the general area where Jerry is searching.

377

Several things tie into this for me.

The FBI (H through Ckret) relied on "bad wx" as
a basic premise in their theory: Cooper did not
survive. But to this very hour nobody in the FBI
has ever defined what "bad weather" is/was.
That baffles me.

H basically tossed out Bohan's report as spurious.
There is literally NOTHING in the transcripts to suggest turbulence on the level Bohan said he
encountered (4 mi behind and 4000ft above 305).
Then Scott finally surfaces and says: "turbulence".
But Ckret offhandedly says he spoke to military
authorities who said they would "never-ever"
deploy their paratroupers in weather "like that"
(whatever "like that" is). Then we here (Snow etal)
searched for weather records and found nothing
to back Bohan up. Others also searched and found
nothing (I know for a fact). So in the end we at
this forum dismissed Bohan's report just as H
dismisses it, and still the FBI theory is: "foul wx
contributed to Cooper's demise" and found weather
includes the word "storm".

If Bohan encountered severe turbulence (right on
my nose, he said) at 14,000 ft, then severe crosswinds at the ground landing at PDX, that
adds up to a front with serious hi alt turbulence
"headers" rising at least to 14,000 feet. In my
neck-o-the-woods that would qualify as a storm
with high winds.

Point being: turbulence could have affected where
Cooper went, where the money went and how far,
and the FBI still relies on that premise but does not define it while still saying 'it contributed to Cooper's
demise, andwe are SURE he died!".

And the transcripts don't even mention weather as
a significant factor!

Something is amiss.

[georger 271]

Quote

Quote

But, I am sitting here wondering IF Cooper opens
the NB6/8 in strong upward drafts where does that
potentially take him? To Idaho!? Or if he doesnt
open where does he go? Can his money pouch
stay on him? ............. I'll stop. Too many questions.

Check this out. The guy ejected in a violent storm at 47,000 ft. I'd guess his auto opener fired at about 10,000 ft. He spent over half an hour under a canopy very similar to Cooper's.

from Wikipedia:

In the summer of 1959, William Rankin was flying from South Weymouth Naval Air Station, Massachusetts to Beaufort, North Carolina. He was climbing over a thunderhead that peaked at 45,000 ft (13.7 km), when—at 47,000 ft (14.3 km) and at mach 0.82—he heard a loud bump and rumble from the engine. The rpm fell to zero, and the fire warning light flashed.[1] He pulled a lever to deploy auxiliary power, but the lever broke off in his hands. Although the temperature outside was −50°C and he was not wearing a pressure suit, he was forced to eject. At 6:00 pm, he ejected.[1] He suffered immediate frostbite, and decompression caused his eyes, ears, nose, and mouth to start bleeding. His abdomen swelled as if he were pregnant. Pain seared his body, though numbed by the cold. He managed to use his emergency oxygen supply.[1] Five minutes after he left the plane, his parachute still hadn't opened. Finally, still in the upper regions of the thunderstorm, with near-zero visibility, the parachute opened. After ten minutes, when he normally would have already landed, Rankin was still in the air, being carried upward by updrafts and getting hit by hailstones. Violent spinning and pounding caused him to vomit. Lightning appeared, which he described as blue blades several feet thick, and thunder, which was so close he could feel as well as hear it. The rain forced him to hold his breath to keep from drowning. One lightning bolt lit up the parachute, making Rankin believe he had died.[1] Soon, however, conditions calmed, and he descended into a forest. His watch read 6:40 pm. He searched for help and eventually was admitted into a hospital at Ahoskie, North Carolina.[1] He suffered from frostbite welts, bruises, and severe decompression.

377

Good account. I am sure there are
many like accounts.

Scott says turbulence was one of the reasons they
called back to Cooper to see if he was still there and/or ok. Why? Bombs in turbulence are problematic!
I think they were wondering about the bomb.

But, the statistician in me in warning: get a third
independent account which verifies and maybe
defines "turbulence" that night, and then I think
we have something solid.

If I recall, Snow finally dismissed Bohan's report
also, but I cant find his posts on this so I am
unsure ... and I dont recall his reasoning.

This may be much to do about nothing or if real
it has ramifications - even to Jerry's searches.

[georger 271]

Quote

Quote

But, I am sitting here wondering IF Cooper opens
the NB6/8 in strong upward drafts where does that
potentially take him? To Idaho!? Or if he doesnt
open where does he go? Can his money pouch
stay on him? ............. I'll stop. Too many questions.

Check this out. The guy ejected in a violent storm at 47,000 ft. I'd guess his auto opener fired at about 10,000 ft. He spent over half an hour under a canopy very similar to Cooper's.
377

I hit paydirt, quickly. I forgot Sluggo has posted
about this after talkling to H. This sinches it.

I am posting entire posts below for accuracy -

***********************************


snowmman PM Friend JumpsLicenseIn sport : : :
Mar 8, 2009, 4:06 PM Post #8629 of 10519 (720 views) Copy Shortcut Registered: Mar 30, 2008Posts: 2458 georger's right that ckret commented on bohan [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ckret's post was: Sluggo, I cannot find where an interview of Bohan was conducted by the FBI. His statement is a bit out of what had been reported by the various weather services the evening of the jump. To that end, as with all of the factors on the evening of the jump, you have to keep in mind that humans beings were involved in this incident. Human beings that don't have all the pieces of the puzzel in front of them. Human beings that don't know whats going to happen from minute to minute, and so on...... Some how you are going to have to take a look at the incident from two directions, a keen investigator with information after the fact and (this is the tough part) a person in the moment (with their knowledge and skill set) not knowing whats going to happen next and just reacting.

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Sluggo_Monster

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Mar 5, 2009, 6:13 PM

Post #8462 of 10521 (647 views)

Registered: Jan 24, 2008
Posts: 461


Conversation With Ralph Himmelsbach [In reply to] Can't Post
All,


I just got off the phone with Ralph Himmelsbach. I told him I would keep it short and had only one or two questions for him. He was very cordial and gave me as much time and attention as he had to spare. I got in a little more than two questions.

[NOTE: Before I go on, I want everyone to understand that I am just acting as a recorder here. I asked the questions that I thought were the ones that most of the group (not the secret DBC Club, but the posters on this forum) would want to know about considering the discussions going on today. I haven’t even taken the time to reflect fully on what he said and how it changes my beliefs about NORJAK. But I will have to change some beliefs. Items in green are my comments and/or notes.]

I asked about whether Tom Bohan was a real person or fictionalization for/from his publishers. Ralph said that he was indeed real (now deceased) and he was flying a Continental Airlines 727-xxx about 4 min behind and 4,000 feet above (14,000 ft. MSL). [Sluggo Note: If Bohan was on approach to PDX he was most likely less than 240 kts, so 4 min. would be about 13-15 nm.] Ralph had breakfast with Bohan some ??? years after the hijacking. Bohan reported that the weather was terrible and he had an 80 kt. headwind while flying south. Bohan specific stated it was some of the worse weather he had ever flown in. Bohan told Ralph that when he landed at PDX ??? runway to the East, he was right at the “maximum demonstrated crosswind component” for the aircraft at that weight.

I asked Ralph how the weather could have been so severe at 14,000 ft. and not so bad at 10,000 ft. He said it WAS bad at 10,000 ft, it was bad at 2,500 ft. where he was in an Army (possibly National Guard) helicopter. He said a cold front was coming in and there was turbulence and sustained winds throughout.

I described the “Flight-path” on the SEA Sectional that was released by the FBI in November of 2007 and made sure he knew which one I was talking about. (There could be others that he would know about, but have not yet been released.) I then asked him how that chart was produced and who produced it. He replied (somewhat bluntly) I just don’t know. He speculated that it was the product of some ARTC engineers and some Northwest Airlines engineers, using radar and flight recorder information. [I got the sense that he had no faith in that document at all.].

I ask how far off of V-23 the plane might have been after they got down around Battle Ground or Orchards. He told me that “the pilots” were not under very much restriction at all and were “hand-flying” the plane because large jets aren’t happy on autopilot at low speeds and low altitude. We had a short discussion about the clearance language and how they were told they could bust altitude by as much as 4,000 feet without notice from ARTC. Neither of us knew what they would have needed to have done as far a horizontal deviation from V-23. He said (without commenting on how he knew this) that as they approached PDX they could have been as much as 20 miles East of V-23. I asked for clarification, was he saying statute miles or nautical miles. His response was “statute miles.”

I commented about, in light of that statement, Jerry Thomas’s search in and NE of Dugan Falls would not be so far-fetched. He said Jerry was definitely on target.

He went into a long monologue about Jerry and how much he respects Jerry’s efforts. I won’t write much about it here (I don’t want Jerry to get a swelled head Smile), but it was obvious to me (and Sugar) that he thinks a lot of Jerry.

Interspersed in this whole conversation was a lot of stuff about why he thinks Cooper wasn’t an experienced jumper. We were getting into why no one has ever come forward and why he thinks the “new” publicity (including this forum and my web-site, (he reads neither)) could possibly get someone to come forward and ID Cooper when he got another call. I thanked him and he said to call anytime I had questions. I told him I would, but would try not to be a pest.

That’s all I have. But that’s enough to keep me thinking for a few days.

Sluggo_Monster


[edit] I reposted here and now Sluggo's post shows
up complete - have no idea what happened on the first try.

[BruceSmith 3]

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As for the phone call to Ralph 90 minutes after the jump, I don't consider that any kind of alibi, even though Ralph has said it holds water for him. One reason is that the Gossett and Dayton scenarios certainly portray a way where a phone booth could be reached well before the 1.5 hour mark. That's not to say Gossett or Dayton are DB Cooper, or that Danny landed in Oregon, only that their scenario shows how it is possible.

I agree about the phone call not ruling him out Bruce, but as you point out, the composite description is not a good match to Mayfield.

I wonder if Tina or Flo or the ticket agent were ever shown photos of Teddy M? In my experience in criminal law you would not believe how inaccurate some drawings and witness descriptions were.

Ted M was a MAJOR risk taker, with his own life and unfortunately also with the lives of skydiving students.

Still a person of interest in my book.

377

I agree, 377. He is still a major person of interest to me, also.

Interesting also that you should mention the variation factor in sketches from eye witness. I just had the feeling today that the composite sketches of DBC that I have been looking at do not look like a man who stands six feet or taller, and is only 170 pounds. The facial/upper torso components of the sketch suggest a smaller, heavier man.

[BruceSmith 3]

We had started to discuss Mayfield in the other thread - IIRC Awsee (Brenda) was the protagonist, but certain elements basically ran her out of town.

There is a conspiracy theory on another site that reckons H "owed" him and that his alibi is substantively provided by H, i.e. that was he was Cooper and H covered for him. I am not sure I buy this, for the same reasons that I generally don't buy conspiracies (secrets come out) but also I am not aware of anything in H's background that would point to him being a "bad cop". I admit though I have not done an awful lot of research into this. I agree with 377 that he is still a "person of interest" and certainly I think a far better candidate than Weber. I'd love to know exactly what all the other stuff was that Ckret referred to in eliminating him as a suspect.

Bruce, are you sure he is "scared" of you, or are you reading into that the same stuff Jo does when (in her opinion and her opinion only) Gerorger "reacts" to certain evidence? If I was Mayfield, given the background, I probably wouldn't be interested in talking to any reporters any more no matter who they were or what their angle was.

[Orange1 0]

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West Indies just pulled off a brilliant defeat of India in the World T20 cricket tournament...most of you probably don't even know what cricket is , but hey ;) just thought i'd mention it

It have a Cricket in my garden and he makes a lot of noise at night. Ckret, on the other hand, remains silent.

BTW, the Indian engineers where I work are PISSED! They take Cricket very seriously and WI has ruined everything.

377

Cricket IS serious!!! Very srious.

That Rankin guy was very lucky. Other people caught up under canopy in thunderstorms have not made it out alive.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 271]

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West Indies just pulled off a brilliant defeat of India in the World T20 cricket tournament...most of you probably don't even know what cricket is , but hey ;) just thought i'd mention it

It have a Cricket in my garden and he makes a lot of noise at night. Ckret, on the other hand, remains silent.

BTW, the Indian engineers where I work are PISSED! They take Cricket very seriously and WI has ruined everything.

377

Cricket IS serious!!! Very srious.

That Rankin guy was very lucky. Other people caught up under canopy in thunderstorms have not made it out alive.

Bohan speaks of 80 knot headwinds as he
encountered the cold front moving through. He
actually would have encountered a cell in this
front. H confirms this was a cold front so I assume
that means down drafts at the boundary. Convection
within cells is more complicated but potentially Cooper could have bailed into a strong down draft, or a
mix of down & up drafts, or even in a boundary sheer
between drafts (within a given cell) .

Two weather maps for 11-24-71 are attached which
show the front in question. I am not sure but rotation
in this front may be counter clockwise which from the
position of PDX makes for a SW to NE vector ? That
might account for the "headwind" Bohan encountred
given his direction of travel.

But this front shows four cells. I am not sure
from this data the exact direction and speed of each cell but potentially one of these cells is the cell Bohan
and 305 encountered.

Given the size of these cells I am wondering if Bohan
and 305 did not have turbulence free flight until they encountered their cell?

If we had a beginning position and knew the size
and speed of travel of the cell encountered we might be able to predict when and where 305 and Bohan encountered (their) cell, which might help fix a
flight path position and the zone Cooper bailed into.

Direction of travel for Cooper would depend on wind rotation Cooper encountered otherwise he travels
with the winds (SW to NE is the assumption?). If
there was significant rotation toward the west, for
example, then Cooper may have moved toward
the west (whether under canopy or not).

These are all tentative thoughts -

[Orange1 0]

Of course, this discussion about turbulence all seems to back up at least part of the official FBI position - that wx was bad and would have reduced chances of survival. I'm not sure cloud suck was seen as one of the reasons, but certainly IF Cooper was sucked up the combination of hypoxia and hypothermia may well have been lethal if he was in the cell long enough.

Here is one account of a paraglider who survived. If you do a google search you will find others not so lucky. (Bear in mind because of the differences in the sport, you are far more likely to find instances of paragliding pilots than skydivers getting caught up in thunder cells.)
http://www.poweredparaglidingontario.com/weather/sucked_in.htm

Here is a general wiki article on cloud suck:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_suck

This sentence may be of interest:

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Mr. He's body was found the next day 15 km (9 miles) from his last known position prior to entering the cloud

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.