georger 268
georger 268
"Latent fingerprint" just means a print left somewhere, like a doorknob. The prints are typically skin oil residue. The way they (usually) preserve prints is to dust the latent print with a dark dust like graphite powder. The powder sticks to the oily print, and the rest is blown away with air, leaving the print with powder stuck to t the oils. Then a piece of clear tape is laid over the powdered print then lifted off, leaving the print image stuck to the tape. It may be possible to get DNA from the oils themselves, but perhaps not from decades old oil/graphite. My guess is no.
Some more advanced departments will try using
fluorescent and UV monochromatic illumination methods prior to a method which contaminates
the prints chemically - in order to help preserve
the pristine chemistry of the prints. The problem
usually, is these techniques are just not ameanable to the crime scene at hand, or to time factors involved, and are not cost effective (yet) especially
if further chemistry tests are mandated.
Over the years finger printing has evolved more
toward the chemistry side. The ideal technology
would provide both high quality graphics and
preserve chemistry & dna, with reliable results
on both sides of the issue -
Behind all techniques is the issue of statistical reliability. No method stands on its own without
statistical validation.
quade 4
Im not sure how old or how contaminated finger prints can be and still remove dna. Contact dna
comes primarily from skin cells left at a crime
scene, which may or maynot be mixed in with
finger print residues.
I'm going to have to think that 38 years after the fact there isn't much in the way of useable DNA left on any of the evidence that wouldn't be considered severally compromised and contaminated.
I'm pretty sure that even if you had a pristine glass that Cooper would have left a thumb print smudge on it that would have been perfectly fine to use if it was fresh, the DNA has broken down by now.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
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"Latent fingerprint" just means a print left somewhere, like a doorknob. The prints are typically skin oil residue. The way they (usually) preserve prints is to dust the latent print with a dark dust like graphite powder. The powder sticks to the oily print, and the rest is blown away with air, leaving the print with powder stuck to t the oils. Then a piece of clear tape is laid over the powdered print then lifted off, leaving the print image stuck to the tape. It may be possible to get DNA from the oils themselves, but perhaps not from decades old oil/graphite. My guess is no.
Some more advanced departments will try using
fluorescent and UV monochromatic illumination methods prior to a method which contaminates
the prints chemically - in order to help preserve
the pristine chemistry of the prints. The problem
usually, is these techniques are just not ameanable to the crime scene at hand, or to time factors involved, and are not cost effective (yet) especially
if further chemistry tests are mandated.
Over the years finger printing has evolved more
toward the chemistry side. The ideal technology
would provide both high quality graphics and
preserve chemistry & dna, with reliable results
on both sides of the issue -
Behind all techniques is the issue of statistical reliability. No method stands on its own without
statistical validation.
Yah, Yah. Tons of changes in technology over the years. In 1971, it was probably dust and tape. Just trying to answer Jo's question. Google isn't a secret....
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
georger 268
Tina’s compliance,
Just to clear a few matters up on Tina's
compliance/willingness. Here re a few notes from
the Sluggo's timeline using the Transcripts:
(1) "15:45 PST
Tina called cockpit and requested that another girl be allowed to stay with him. Cooper said, “No” ""
Pilot
Time based on handwritten crew notes p.5
(2) """ 15:59 – 18:59 PST
During this period a plane started taxing along the taxiway and was unaware the airport was closed. Flo and Alice were in a car and thought that if Cooper was told everything was going well he would let Tina go. Tena had been instructed to sit with Cooper and not go forward of the 1st Class Section.
Pilot and SEA GRND
Comm. between Pilot and SEA GRND Reel #4"""
On the topic of the Lavatory: Here is the first remark
about this in the PI Transcript -
The plane landed at 5:47 PM.
5:47pm MSPFLTOPS: Any word yet?
SEADD: The flight is on the ground and they are making preps to hook up the fueling truck. The hijacker is in the LAV (lavatory) and think will stay there for a while.
The plane left at 3:07 so the passengers have been
in the air approx 2:40 hrs on what would have been
a routine 30min flight.
This is illuminated by the following passage from T6
also at 5:47 :
"""~5:47pm t6 Cooper hiding in back lavatory as 305 lands.
AL: You can stay there for just a half a (unintel) ..for just a moment until we
get contact made with our friend in the back.. (unintel).
P: OK, Thank you.
P: Ok. He at the present time is in the Lavatory and apparently desires to
Stay in there at the present time. We have the aircraft shut down and we
have the APU on and we ask that the fuel truck come out first and
initiate fueling.
Al: Are you sure you want (unintel) or you want the fuel truck only?
P: (unintel) we’ll stand by to get the next word from him.
Al: And I’ll stay right here. I’ll go back and get the fuel truck started.
P: Ok fine (Al). You’re on the first vehicle, is that correct?
AL: Yes sir. They have a portable radio and a dialer here and we can answer
your questions if you have any.
P: OK fine. Ok. Be sure to get the fuel out here right now.
P: Are you there? Al, or whomever?
AL: (unintel … yes Im here muffled … truck is moving away further to let
another fuel truck in.
P: Ok, now you can send the air stair, or the stair.
AL: (unintel) …to bring truck up and pull it into position and we’ll initiate the
door and so forth and advise the individuals not to get out of the vehicles.
AL: OK, is it OK if I positioned it at your (unintell) position or do you want it
out here?
P: Oh that’s fine. You can bring it up.
Al: Ok. I’ll have to get out of the truck to get the pack out of the truck, the
chutes that we took.
P: OK. PLEASE WAIT until we request that you do so. (Cooper has not approved anyone approaching the plane.)
Al Yep. I know …. (unintel)
P: Ok, we’ll wait for the stairs now.
Al: Ok, we’re bringing the stairs up now.
P: Understand
C: We’re going to position.
Al: OK.
C: I’ve already got 305 parked.
P: The passengers will be coming out of the aircraft right now, Al, and
after they have completely I might suggest that you come out of the
automobile now if you will and direct the passengers to gather behind
the automobile where they have been so directed (by Cooper) to go,
just to make sure that they all stand clear and as far back as possible.
The next direct mention of Cooper comes at:
6:21pm t1 305:
WE HAVE INSTRUCTIONS FROM THE INDIVIDUAL. He wants Nr 305 to go to Mexico City with gear down and flaps at 15 degrees aft under way. All lights to be turned out in aircraft. Cannot land in USA for
fuel or any other reason. No crew member is to go aft or class section
curtain.
MSPFLTOPS: Roger. Even if full tanks you cannot land in Mexico City.
305: Roger. Aft passenger loading door will be open and will remain in that
position and aft stairs to be lowered after takeoff.
MSPFLTOPS: The drag will be such that you cannot make Mexico border even with
aft stairs up.
305: Roger. Will have to negotiate with him and will have to stop for fuel.
305: Girls are not off yet. Senior girl stationed on aft side of the cockpit in
her seat remaining seated. 2nd girl in forward rear seat in C section
told not to get up. 3rd girl (Mucklow) is intermediary and sitting with
the individual. Mspfltops, the plane is operable with the aft stairs extended. 305. Roger?
MSPFLTOPS: You just cannot make it with the flaps down. Our guess is you can
only go for two and a half hours, as far as can go. That would be
Frisco under that drag condition.
305: Roger. Will talk to him again.
georger 268
Google isn't a secret....
Some people dont/wont use it. So I try to provide
references where I can -
georger 268
Im not sure how old or how contaminated finger prints can be and still remove dna. Contact dna
comes primarily from skin cells left at a crime
scene, which may or maynot be mixed in with
finger print residues.
I'm going to have to think that 38 years after the fact there isn't much in the way of useable DNA left on any of the evidence that wouldn't be considered severally compromised and contaminated.
I'm pretty sure that even if you had a pristine glass that Cooper would have left a thumb print smudge on it that would have been perfectly fine to use if it was fresh, the DNA has broken down by now.
Lets just say its good they got samples when they
did.
The reconstructive-statistical side of dna analysis
however may offer a lot in this case as time goes
on. Without knowing what the FBI has its difficult
to speculate.
georger 268
This place just isn't the same without Snowmman. Come on, put in an appearance Snow. Sluggo squawked Mode C. Don't act like an F 117 or B 2. Let's see an echo. SAGE operators are standing by.
377
Sluggo may be busy negotiating with them?
So Coop spent all that time hiding out in the Lav...What was he doing?
a) Actually using the bathroom.
b) Gearing Up? Perhaps he had some boots in the Briefcase with the 'bomb'. (Was it ever established how big this briefcase was?)
c) Communicating with someone on the ground? Walkie Talkie in the bag or Briefcase?
d) Listening in on the flight crew comms?
e) Getting High!?
a) Actually using the bathroom.
b) Gearing Up? Perhaps he had some boots in the Briefcase with the 'bomb'. (Was it ever established how big this briefcase was?)
c) Communicating with someone on the ground? Walkie Talkie in the bag or Briefcase?
d) Listening in on the flight crew comms?
e) Getting High!?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090415/ap_on_re_us/air_america_documents
Sorry, I do not know how to make a clicky.
It really would make pretty good sense that a former CIA/Air America employee was DBC. He would have had the knowledge, training and perhaps the reason for the 'grudge'. The FBI must have beat this angle to death, unless they never wanted it solved...
Sorry, I do not know how to make a clicky.
It really would make pretty good sense that a former CIA/Air America employee was DBC. He would have had the knowledge, training and perhaps the reason for the 'grudge'. The FBI must have beat this angle to death, unless they never wanted it solved...
377 22
I am not at all confident that the FBI did much on this angle of investigation (Air America, CIA, SE Asia etc). We have no evidence that DBC had any connection with Air America, CIA or SE Asia covert air ops, but there sure are some intriguing possibilities: Air America 727 jumps and smoke jumper CIA air ops involvement. Still, none of those intriguing facts prove that DBC was involved.
I think the FBI has always wanted to solve this case and still does. I just don't buy the theory that they are conspiring to keep DBCs real identity a secret. I think even if DBC were a CIA or FBI agent they'd still want it solved and publicized, especially this long after the crime.
377
I think the FBI has always wanted to solve this case and still does. I just don't buy the theory that they are conspiring to keep DBCs real identity a secret. I think even if DBC were a CIA or FBI agent they'd still want it solved and publicized, especially this long after the crime.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
The more I read this 'treatise' of yours above, the
more fascinated I get. You speak of the "the affinity between Tina and DB."
What "affinity" would that be?
The more I read this 'treatise' of yours above, the
more fascinated I get. You speak of the "the affinity between Tina and DB."
What "affinity" would that be?
Greetings Georger,
Whew, G., you sure have gotten your knickers in a twist, here.
As for the affinity I see between Tina and DB Cooper, here’s my thinking:
One, she describes him in favorable terms, i.e.: gentlemanly, courteous, etc, while Himmelsback saw him as a filthy-mouthed sleaze ball. What is the truth, here?
Two, she was his trusted courier.
Three, she was able to sit next to him for long periods of time, light cigarettes for him, and tried to make small talk, albeit, elicit information for the FBI. How many women would do that? I know if my mother was in Tina’s shoes, she would have told Danny Boy straight up:
“Light your own damn cigarettes, Mr. Hijack-and-Blow-Me-Up-Gangster-Man. If you’re such a Big Shot, light ‘em yourself, and I hope you choke on them. You shouldn’t be smoking anyway - its bad for your health, and it stinks, too!” (As far as I know, my mother has never missed an opportunity to educate anyone into proper virtue and behavior.)
Was Tina just being wise, and complying with a terrorist’s threat? Probably.
But, at the end, as I understand from written accounts, they waved to each other when she went back to the cockpit, and Danny headed towards destiny.
Im going to go at this one more time and then probably give this up - there is no record of waving
that I am aware of. In fact Cooper told Tina to go
forward and not look back. As she went through and
was closing the curtain from the other side she paused
and looked back - that is the moment when she reports later she saw Cooper tying (something ..
the money bag?) around his waste with a rope.
There was no waving goodbye and good luck.
I see a lot of "projection" is everything above
including your choice of words (negative towards
Cooper). You have to remain neutral in these
matters and rely on facts alone, as best you can
assemble the facts.
You have to start with a few basic assumptions
regarding human behavior. One of those is: most
people know when they are in a dangerous
confrontational situation and their lives are at
risk. A few basic human emotions (autonomic)
come into play at the moment (hormone driven).
Fear. Alert. Panic (suppressed if trained). etc etc.
On the basis of those basic emotions one can
begin to imput what other behaviors or communications
mean. That is one place to start. (One can start
at several other levels also but the basic emotional
response-to-threat level is usually a reliable base
from which to interpret other behaviors).
Again, Tina was not Cooper's trusted courier. Tina
was behaving under orders fulfilling a role. Likewise
Cooper was not trusting of Tina. Cooper watched
her intently. He demanded she sit close to him so
he could control her if need be. He demonstrated
the bomb and said 'just touching these two wires and
boom' - the message was obvious (no funny stuff).
You seem to read into this options which never
existed for either party. Not only was there not
the time, but there wasn't enough reciprocal space
based on experience, in order to build a trust.
Overriding everything is the fact of the bomb and
nobody knows if Cooper had other weapons - he
did produce a knife.
There might have been an element of Tina wanting
to stay close to Cooper at certain times in order to
intervene, if she thought she could. She knew he
was a nutcase - she watched him flip out and turn childlike when the money was delivered and he opened the bag and saw $200,000. Tina stood there and
unemotionally watched.
Tina being in the back was also reassurance for the flight crew trying to focus on their duties. She was
their eyes and ears.
The most frightening time for everyone was perhaps
when Tina went forward and contact with Cooper was
lost. How could they know from that point what he
was going to do? That is why Rat eventually called
back to ask if everything was OK. But I am sure from the moment Tina went forward, everyone wanted Cooper off the plane and gone, asap, and the
transcripts show they cooperated in every way to
get that goal achieved.
I think Ive said more than enough. I hope some of
this will help your thoughts -
Indeed, it has. Thanks,
CB
As for the affinity I see between Tina and DB Cooper, here’s my thinking:
One, she describes him in favorable terms, i.e.: gentlemanly, courteous, etc, while Himmelsback saw him as a filthy-mouthed sleaze ball. What is the truth, here?
Two, she was his trusted courier.
Three, she was able to sit next to him for long periods of time, light cigarettes for him, and tried to make small talk, albeit, elicit information for the FBI. How many women would do that? I know if my mother was in Tina’s shoes, she would have told Danny Boy straight up:
“Light your own damn cigarettes, Mr. Hijack-and-Blow-Me-Up-Gangster-Man. If you’re such a Big Shot, light ‘em yourself, and I hope you choke on them. You shouldn’t be smoking anyway - its bad for your health, and it stinks, too!” (As far as I know, my mother has never missed an opportunity to educate anyone into proper virtue and behavior.)
Was Tina just being wise, and complying with a terrorist’s threat? Probably.
Yes, probably.
1. Bruce, have you ever worked in an environment where you are faced with difficult clients daily and you have to be nice? This kind of thing was probably ingrained into Tina.
2. Your mom sounds great, but do you really think she would have said all that to someone she was scared might blow them up if he got angry? Or would she have been nice to him to make sure he stayed calm enough to not do anything stupid?
so, yes, 3 is indeed the most probable.
by the way you mentioned something about good-looking women bringing bibles to work... is it completely beyond your comprehension that a good-looking woman might be religious simply because of the way she was brought up? i went to a convent school in elementary school and have kept in touch with a number of the girls from there. a number of them are still practising, observant Catholics and some of them are really beautiful girls (well, women now). some of them rebelled against the church in their teenage years and then went back when they grew older, which is probably par for the course. it's pretty clear to me this is simply due to family background, reinforced by schooling, and nothing to do with abuse issues.
I agree with your general theme, here, Orange. Being good-looking and clutching a bible after a hijacking, in and of itself is no proof of sexual abuse. In fact, all of the characteristics of abuse-related behaviors that I've posted recently, when taken singularly, do not confirm any abuse.
Rather, it is a preponderence of behaviors or their intensities that can point to abuse.
It's because of the unusual nature of the DB Cooper case, Tina's withdrawal from the world - plus the bible and her appearence, and questions about the tie that I raise the possibility of abuse.
What do you think about Tina? Do you think her behaviors tell us anything about the case, other than the fact that she did a tought job very well, and is, as Georger says, an American hero.
I wish it was as easy as sending an email, hell we might actually get something done beside writting communications. This is a whole rant deserving a thread of its own. Have you ever dealt with a government agency and became frustrated at the process? It's no different for the "cogs" in the "machine."
June 19:It is my understanding from going through the file(may be wrong haven't checked) that the prints are not of AFIS quality. I have not found anyhting in the file that shows they were run through the system.
Amazing!! WOW, that would have been my first move. Just imagine when the FBI gets to running the prints through the system and find a match. There would be some major explaining to do!
Yup, SnG. That kind of thinking, clearly spelled out here, is a humongous red flag.
Note: this is based on subjucation that someone did indeed provide an alibli for any suspect.
about the statement someone made the other day about an interview Cook did regarding his book. Does he NOT KNOW that Florence has identified others as being Cooper? Does he know that not one of the witnesses claimed Cooper was wearing Make-up. I thought he was trying to write a book about a suspect and not a piece of fiction. I am really disappointed in him after reading the post - that is assuming the post was correct.
Today I understand they can get DNA from a fingerprint - is that true or just TV talk.
True. Its called contact dna. Here's a link or two::
http://dna-view.com/DNAtechID.htm
http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/AB/BA/Use_of_DNA_Identification.php
http://www.officer.com/print/Law-Enforcement-Technology/DNA-from-Fingerprints/1$25197
Im not sure how old or how contaminated finger prints can be and still remove dna. Contact dna
comes primarily from skin cells left at a crime
scene, which may or maynot be mixed in with
finger print residues.