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georger 264
Quote
377,
377 Said:QuoteWhere is Snowmman? Sluggo is also missed. Squawk ident, both of you.
IDENT... I am squawking 7500! I have been hijacked.
Seriously, I have been doing some "in-depth" NORJAK research (leg-work) on some issues that have always puzzled me and and making "personal contact" with people that I have always wanted to talk to.
I honestly believe as time goes on, the curtain is descending on the D. B. Cooper case (NORJAK). Eye-witnesses are getting old, senile and dying. The same is true for participants. Some of these people MUST BE located and their stories recorded, even though time has “muddied the water”. That is the only way the crime can be solved (by anyone, FBI or citizen). However, it DOES NOT ensure that a solution is obtainable. Locating people and getting statements (preferably oral) is what has been occupying my (now limited, since I’m on assignment) time.
I’m not mad at anyone, or ignoring the thread, (I read it (almost) daily), it’s just that the current “style” of posts are not helpful (to me). Back around the time of the Amboy chute find, this thread was very valuable to me, but at this time, it isn’t. My hopes are that someday it will return to the way it was then. Anybody know of an old buried parachute in Clark County, Washington that we could dig up?
I drove long distances and got little sleep this (Holiday), weekend. But, I did get to stay in a really nice hotel.
Ditto to Orange1’s Passover and Easter greetings, peace to all. If we could obtain peace on this thread, we could start working on “World Peace” (or at least some “Whorled Peas”). Yum… Yummmm... I’m hungry!
Later,
Sluggo_Monster
Oh Yeah… Whoever sent me the e-mail calling me a coward… your actions define you. I’ll bet your Mom is really proud of her son or daughter.
I guess there have been developments here over the
Holiday! Cooperologists never sleep!
Jo says above:
"What they cannot glean from this forum - they find me or Himmelsback or go to Sluggos site. I do NOT answer with Weber had to be Cooper."
Jo places herself before Himmelsbach and you,
above. Does this mean Jo has now organised her
own team with Himmelsbach and you? She seems to be speaking for you and H ?
Jo even seems to be speaking for Dropzone.com
and its owners? Giving us orders?
What's going on??? !!!
Or are Jo's words
ransom demands?
georger 264
He was a male figure ..........................
I tried to follow your logic and confess I could not.
Well, I actually follow your logic but where it leads
is a little disturbing; shall we say 'unconventional'.
You say: " Another key is looking at the men
around them, particularly dads and husbands: controlling, angry, bullying, and aggressive. Hence,
I strongly suspect that Tina was abused as a kid.
I strongly doubt that she was abused in any way by
DB Cooper."
You obviously are contending Tina Mucklow had an
abusive father. On what do you base that contention?
You knew Tina Mucklow and her family? You have
factual data from some source that Tina Mucklow's
father was abusive? Do you have hospital records
from your prior work in psychiatry you cite, about
Tina Mucklow? Did you work at a facility where Tina
was being cared for and she was under your
personal care or authority? What is the source of
your knowledge you are speaking from ???
Please make yourselves clear. Inquiring minds
want to know!
Thank you Mr. or is it Dr. Bruce?
Quoteunsatisfactory relationships with men
So... all of them?
Quote
the lack of robust expression of opinions and decision making
Waiting to meet that one.
Quoteblatant use of sex or seduction to obtain power or influence
Too funny.
As bunny trails go, this was designed for Easter Sunday.
Quote
Jo says
"What they cannot glean from this forum - they find me or Himmelsback or go to Sluggos site. I do NOT answer with Weber had to be Cooper."
Jo places herself before Himmelsbach and you,
above. Does this mean Jo has now organised her own team with Himmelsbach and you? She seems to be speaking for you and H ?
Jo even seems to be speaking for Dropzone.com and its owners? Giving us orders?
Sorry I didn't mean for it to sound that way. It is easy for them to email me or contact Sluggo, because our information is out there. I expect Himmelsbach's is available also, but he doesn't participate in forums - making him less excessible. Thare was no motive in the order I listed the names - none at all.
I would never and could not speak for DropZone - It was a personal request and hoping the thread could get back on track, if I backed off some. I apologize if any of you thought otherwise.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 264
QuoteBruce,
When I tried to Google Cathy O'Brien and MK Ultra I was lead to the following website that makes us DBC lunatics look quite sane by comparison:
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:izgLsC3S9jIJ:www.theblackvault.com/ftopic-61121-0.html+Cathy+O%27Brien,+who+claims+she+was+intentionally+abused+as+a+kid+to+prepare+her+for+MK+ULTRA+and+CIA+work.&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Every time I read about some govt conspiracy plot theory that involves something like sexually abusing kids to prepare them for CIA experiments that will take place when they reach adulthood, my credibility gets strained to the snapping point. Do you believe claims such as the ones made by O'Brien?
377
Greetings Three-Seven-Seven,
Do I believe Cathy O’Brien was sexually abused in the MKULTRA program for the CIA?
Yes and no.
Here’s my thinking:
I first encountered Cathy in 1999, when I heard her and her rescuer, Mark Somebody, speak about her experiences. At that time, I was certain she was correct in describing herself as a victim of childhood sexual abuse, but I was skeptical that it was at the hands of a governmental operation.
She and Mark described her recall of the abuse as being a result of several therapies, including hypnosis, and even a lot of old-fashioned TLC, if I remember correctly. Such recollections, “retrieval memories” can be very unreliable, though. The patient believes absolutely that the memories are real, but the facts just don’t support the claims. At the time, I believed such was the case with Cathy O’Brien.
However, as the research continues and I learn more about Cathy, MKULTRA; Gitmo and Abu Graib; the Shock Doctrine, the Chicago Boys and the corporatocracy; plus experience first-hand lies, deception and spin from my local law enforcement, I have begun to add a few more grains of sand on the side of the scale that reads, “Truth”
The one element of doubt that persists is that in my 16 years in psychiatry not once has a patient come up to me and say, “Yo, Bruce, I just gotta tell ya- I was a sex slave for the CIA.” One would think that if the government was running a large scale sex operation somewhere one of the kids would make a run for it and end up in my arena trying to make sense of their trauma.
However, with that said, many of the MKULTRA experiments were conducted for years in secrecy at the Allen Institute, a well-established psychiatric facility in Montreal, and nobody spilled the beans. How did that happen?!
Further, sexual abuse of children is widespread. The general rule of thumb is that one-third of all American women will be raped or physically abused sometime in their lifetime. Boys have a one-in-eight chance of being molested or physically assaulted. That’s a lot of people.
In addition, once one knows what to look for, you can readily see the traces of childhood abuse in adults, and on a daily basis I see women suffering. Some of the indicators can be: flat affect or incongruous emotional expression, eating disorders, chemical addictions, unsatisfactory relationships with men, excessive passivity, the lack of robust expression of opinions and decision making, involvement in the sex industry, blatant use of sex or seduction to obtain power or influence, rampant anxieties, and extreme religiosity.
Another key is looking at the men around them, particularly dads and husbands: controlling, angry, bullying, and aggressive.
Hence, I strongly suspect that Tina was abused as a kid. I strongly doubt that she was abused in any way by DB Cooper.
Also, I suspect that Danny Boy was sexually abused, probably as a kid and possibly throughout his life. That would explain in part how he came to be a loner, appeared from nowhere, boarded 305 and threatened to blow everyone up, then jumped into a November night’s rainy sky and returned to nowhere.
The question I have is: Did he have any organized assistance along the way?
The best we can say at the moment is “Maybe yes, maybe no.” But if he did, then it serves as a link – a possible explanation - as to why we have compelling death-bed confessions, credible ancillary incidents like McCoy’s mysterious appearance in Las Vegas on Nov. 24, 1971 and John C Collins’ in the Rode-Away Inn in Portland, and so many red flags in the FBI investigation that I’ve run out of red ink.
One last thought:
Since abusers were often abused themselves, childhood sexual abuse may explain some of the affinity between Tina and DB.
He was a male figure that she was readily familiar with; she was a woman he knew how to control, or at least feel safe with.
The more I read this 'treatise' of yours above, the
more fascinated I get. You speak of the "the affinity between Tina and DB."
What "affinity" would that be?
Why am I compelled to ask: "Did you get this idea
from Jo Weber?". Are you and Jo Weber joined at
the hip? Are you Jo Weber's 'Angel Bruce'? That's
the affinity I see in your posts.
What is this "affinity" you see between Tina and
Cooper? YOUR CONTENTION IS A VERY HIGHLY
LOADED SUPPOSITION! Because, the affinity I see
is between you and Jo Weber. And I seriously doubt
either you or Jo actually knows much at all about
the real Tina Mucklow, especially her family history.
Why your & Jo's fascination with Tina Mucklow?
Or are you just inarticulate and brash? Did you mean
"vulnerability" rather than "affinity", in reference to
a Mucklow-Cooper association"? And just because
somebody hijacks an airplane how does that act
'certify' that all female hostages taken 'were sexually
abused as children'? (By the way that kind of sweeping
logic has a name: The Bakersfield Syndrom".
Under the Bakersfield CA syndrom one man is
arrested on testimony of a social worker for sexual
abuse of a child. This leads to the rest of the family
being arrested, then all friends of the family, then
the family's whole church, then the whole neighborhood, then half the town - all charged
with sexual abuse of children, including those families
who dont even have any children! (The Bakersfield
Witch Hunt).
Are you saying Tina allowed herself to be kidnapped
because of some 'affinity' with Cooper? And this is
all due to sexual abuse as children?
Was NWA chosen over Continental because more
people at NWA suffered sexual abuse as children
vrs. those working for Continental? Do hijackings
only happen in regions where there is a high
incidence of child sexual abuse?
Does the Earth rotate to the east on its axis, because
there is more child sexual abuse on the east side of
the planet than on the west side?
I have to seriously wonder how much you really
know about the Cooper case. Why would you see
or select an 'affinity' between Mucklow and Cooper,
but not see one between Alice Hancock and Cooper,
given the 'record' of events on this case? Or an
affinity between Schaffner and Cooper. Or an affinity
between Anderson and Cooper, for that matter! ?
I am suspicious you dont know much about
this case and the individuals involved, at all, but
like Jo Weber you dont mind inventing details -
and then passing deductions as soon as you have
digested your own creations, which have nothing to
do with the factual realities in this case.
You clearly are saying you see an affinity between
Cooper and Mucklow based on vulnerability from
both having been sexually abused as children
(because half the world as you see it is sexually
abused in childhood!).
What should Tina do to escape your scenario and
pass your test, Dr. Bruce, with 16 years in Psychiatry? Should she have run and jumped out of the airplane
to prove she was spiritually whole and not sexually abused as a child? Or would you prefer water boarding, or trial by fire, or the rack with chains and hooks ...
all to prove to YOU that Mucklow is not spoiled
property under the control of the Devil ?
What test would satisfy you?
I mean what is the source of this compulsive-
obsession you and Jo have with Tina Mucklow vs
Anderson, Scott, Hancock, Rataczak, Schaffner,
... or Walter Chronkite or Madonna, for that matter?"
Are you a celebrity stalker?
Are you saying Tina Mucklow "selected" Cooper to
hijack flight 305 and then protected and assisted
him, because they knew each other as sexually
abused children, in the same household?
Orange1 0
QuoteIn addition, once one knows what to look for, you can readily see the traces of childhood abuse in adults, and on a daily basis I see women suffering. Some of the indicators can be: flat affect or incongruous emotional expression, eating disorders, chemical addictions, unsatisfactory relationships with men, excessive passivity, the lack of robust expression of opinions and decision making, involvement in the sex industry, blatant use of sex or seduction to obtain power or influence, rampant anxieties, and extreme religiosity.
And any or all of those could stem from something other than sexual abuse, too. If you are going to blame sexual abuse every time you come across one of those "symptoms", well then you are sure to find many people everywhere who may have been abused. I do think you need to look at your "symptoms" in conjunction with other things. I do think a number of those could have been caused by controlling fathers - or submissive mothers, or both - without any hint of sexual abuse at all. And don't forget some of these symptoms (like excessive passivity, the lack of robust expression of opinions and decision making) were the way women were "supposed" to be for a long time. Emotional abuse, intentional or unintentional, could surely also be behind many of these, as could socialization in a particular community, etc etc.
For the record, I don't believe that any of this has anything to do with DB Cooper whatsoever.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
QuoteBruce States:
The one element of doubt that persists is that in my 16 years in psychiatry not once has a patient come up to me and say, “Yo, Bruce, I just gotta tell ya- I was a sex slave for the CIA.”
We were told that Bruce is a writer and now he says he is a psychiartist.
===================
Georger states
QuoteWhy am I compelled to ask: "Did you get this idea
from Jo Weber?". Are you and Jo Weber joined at the hip? Are you Jo Weber's 'Angel Bruce'?
I do not believe Cooper and Tina were "connected" in anyway
===================
Georger states:
QuoteWhy your & Jo's fascination with Tina Mucklow?
I am not fascinated by Tina. I just need to talk to her and show her somethings. I obviously take her privacy into consideration and think the allegations made by Bruce are completely out of line and that such a supposition is harmful and should never have been stated. Those are damaging statements Bruce made.
==================
Geprger states:
QuoteI have to seriously wonder how much you really know about the Cooper case. Why would you see or select an 'affinity' between Mucklow and Cooper,
Georger I was thinking the same thing but lack your ability to word it so well.
===================
Geoger states:
QuoteI mean what is the source of this compulsive-obsession you and Jo have with Tina Mucklow.
The things Bruce has stated are deplorable and totally disrespectfully of what was a young and innocent child in 1971.
===================
In Closing:
Bruce's story made me ill. These statements regarding Tina are not statements any Dr. would or could or should make about someone he knows NOTHING about.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Orange1 0
sheesh... I don't agree wih Bruce's conclusions, but now apparently Jo knows all there is to know about Tina.
QuoteThe things Bruce has stated are deplorable and totally disrespectfully of what was a young and innocent child in 1971.
How do you know this, Jo? To play devil's advocate, how sure can you be that Bruce is wrong about her? Do you know all the details of her childhood? How sure can you be that an air hostess in 1971 would have been a "young and innocent child"?
Would you be so defensive of Tina if you weren't trying to get something out of her?
The carnival sideshow just gets worse and worse here. Does anyone remember that this thread is actually about a man who hijacked an aeroplane?
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
georger 264
QuoteQuoteIn addition, once one knows what to look for, you can readily see the traces of childhood abuse in adults, and on a daily basis I see women suffering. Some of the indicators can be: flat affect or incongruous emotional expression, eating disorders, chemical addictions, unsatisfactory relationships with men, excessive passivity, the lack of robust expression of opinions and decision making, involvement in the sex industry, blatant use of sex or seduction to obtain power or influence, rampant anxieties, and extreme religiosity.
And any or all of those could stem from something other than sexual abuse, too. If you are going to blame sexual abuse every time you come across one of those "symptoms", well then you are sure to find many people everywhere who may have been abused. I do think you need to look at your "symptoms" in conjunction with other things. I do think a number of those could have been caused by controlling fathers - or submissive mothers, or both - without any hint of sexual abuse at all. And don't forget some of these symptoms (like excessive passivity, the lack of robust expression of opinions and decision making) were the way women were "supposed" to be for a long time. Emotional abuse, intentional or unintentional, could surely also be behind many of these, as could socialization in a particular community, etc etc.
For the record, I don't believe that any of this has anything to do with DB Cooper whatsoever.
I agree. Bruce's wide swath is so sweeping as to
catch every fish in the ocean, so to speak, including
half the animals on land and some never seen in
outer space which only has seen, apparently.
Bruce says above: "In addition, once one knows what to look for, you can readily see the traces of childhood abuse in adults, and on a daily basis I see women suffering."
Well what precisely is Bruce looking for (seeing) in
the Cooper case that allows him to strike an identity between the Coopr case and child molestation in
general. I can get very specific here (clinically) if
Bruce desires that.
I guess Bruce is claiming personal knowledge of
the lives of crew members aboard 305?
My take is we have an orderly here who is playing
phD/MD expert?
I think Bruce may be a Troll. He came in on the
back of the "Barb" sex change book he advocates,
and now he is claiming personal knowledge about
Tina Mucklow and others. That's a tall order!
georger 264
QuoteQuoteBruce States:
The one element of doubt that persists is that in my 16 years in psychiatry not once has a patient come up to me and say, “Yo, Bruce, I just gotta tell ya- I was a sex slave for the CIA.”
We were told that Bruce is a writer and now he says he is a psychiartist.
===================
Georger statesQuoteWhy am I compelled to ask: "Did you get this idea
from Jo Weber?". Are you and Jo Weber joined at the hip? Are you Jo Weber's 'Angel Bruce'?
I do not believe Cooper and Tina were "connected" in anyway
===================
Georger states:QuoteWhy your & Jo's fascination with Tina Mucklow?
I am not fascinated by Tina. I just need to talk to her and show her somethings. I obviously take her privacy into consideration and think the allegations made by Bruce are completely out of line and that such a supposition is harmful and should never have been stated. Those are damaging statements Bruce made.
==================
Geprger states:QuoteI have to seriously wonder how much you really know about the Cooper case. Why would you see or select an 'affinity' between Mucklow and Cooper,
Georger I was thinking the same thing but lack your ability to word it so well.
===================
Geoger states:QuoteI mean what is the source of this compulsive-obsession you and Jo have with Tina Mucklow.
The things Bruce has stated are deplorable and totally disrespectfully of what was a young and innocent child in 1971.
===================
In Closing:
Bruce's story made me ill. These statements regarding Tina are not statements any Dr. would or could or should make about someone he knows NOTHING about.
well Jo Im glad for these comments. Evidently you
are suspicious of Bruce also. I dont know. Bruce
makes some very sweeping statements, so maybe
we need to take that at face value for what it is,
and is not.
Thanks.
Note: I only came here to do an update but read the post about Tina and had to make comments.
I need verification of something.
It has been stated that Duane was with Family on that Thanksgiving. I need to know who the party is who made this claim to the FBI. He was NOT with his ex. or a girlfriend. I have letters and phone calls from every member I could contact yrs ago and NO one knew where Duane was at that time.
I expect I know where the story came from and others the FBI should have interviewed have no recollection of Duane being there.I won't go into the details, but the FBI if they were told this - were lied to and they accepted this statement as gospel. They need to talk to the remaing individuals who were there - they should have done this in 1997. I did.
I am doing what I should have done yrs ago - get written affidavits and recording.
P.S. Sluggo - your post made me realize that time is slipping a way.
I have lost some of the witnesses to different parts of Duane's life, but not all.
I need verification of something.
It has been stated that Duane was with Family on that Thanksgiving. I need to know who the party is who made this claim to the FBI. He was NOT with his ex. or a girlfriend. I have letters and phone calls from every member I could contact yrs ago and NO one knew where Duane was at that time.
I expect I know where the story came from and others the FBI should have interviewed have no recollection of Duane being there.I won't go into the details, but the FBI if they were told this - were lied to and they accepted this statement as gospel. They need to talk to the remaing individuals who were there - they should have done this in 1997. I did.
I am doing what I should have done yrs ago - get written affidavits and recording.
P.S. Sluggo - your post made me realize that time is slipping a way.
I have lost some of the witnesses to different parts of Duane's life, but not all.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 264
QuoteQuoteBruce States:
The one element of doubt that persists is that in my 16 years in psychiatry not once has a patient come up to me and say, “Yo, Bruce, I just gotta tell ya- I was a sex slave for the CIA.”
We were told that Bruce is a writer and now he says he is a psychiartist.
===================
Georger statesQuoteWhy am I compelled to ask: "Did you get this idea
from Jo Weber?". Are you and Jo Weber joined at the hip? Are you Jo Weber's 'Angel Bruce'?
I do not believe Cooper and Tina were "connected" in anyway
===================
Georger states:QuoteWhy your & Jo's fascination with Tina Mucklow?
I am not fascinated by Tina. I just need to talk to her and show her somethings. I obviously take her privacy into consideration and think the allegations made by Bruce are completely out of line and that such a supposition is harmful and should never have been stated. Those are damaging statements Bruce made.
==================
Geprger states:QuoteI have to seriously wonder how much you really know about the Cooper case. Why would you see or select an 'affinity' between Mucklow and Cooper,
Georger I was thinking the same thing but lack your ability to word it so well.
===================
Geoger states:QuoteI mean what is the source of this compulsive-obsession you and Jo have with Tina Mucklow.
The things Bruce has stated are deplorable and totally disrespectfully of what was a young and innocent child in 1971.
===================
In Closing:
Bruce's story made me ill. These statements regarding Tina are not statements any Dr. would or could or should make about someone he knows NOTHING about.
By the way, Bruce has never said he is a psychiatrist. He says he has 16 years working "in" psychiatry whatever that means. Normally 10-12 years are required through Residency to finally begin working
as an MD in Psychiatry. I could be wrong but I thought
Bruce said early he was an orderly or something like that. A psychiatric nurse? (That takes 4-6 years
through most programs - even community college
programs). The only reason Im bringing this up is
because of Bruce's sweeping claims.
I want to be 100% clear. I do not know anyone nor
have I ever spent 2 minutes trying of find out about
the personal lives of those were were aboard 305.
I do however get the feeling there has been a lot of stereo-typing of some of these people, especially
Scott and Mucklow (because they played pivital roles
and received a lot of press attention). Sterotypes
usually turn out to be wrong!
georger 264
Quotesheesh... I don't agree wih Bruce's conclusions, but now apparently Jo knows all there is to know about Tina.
QuoteThe things Bruce has stated are deplorable and totally disrespectfully of what was a young and innocent child in 1971.
How do you know this, Jo? To play devil's advocate, how sure can you be that Bruce is wrong about her? Do you know all the details of her childhood? How sure can you be that an air hostess in 1971 would have been a "young and innocent child"?
Would you be so defensive of Tina if you weren't trying to get something out of her?
The carnival sideshow just gets worse and worse here. Does anyone remember that this thread is actually about a man who hijacked an aeroplane?
Bruce seems to be dismissing or unaware of, large
pieces of reality. For one thing, all NWA stews were
required to go through an evaluation process as a
part of their applications for employment with NWA.
That may have included a psychological evaluation
of some kind. (Airline stews as a rule were not
selected for their physical beauty and charm, or
innocence!) That is still true today.
If you take Hancock, Mucklow, and Schaffner as a
group, they had different personality traits but they also had many things in common.
Let me simply say I have never seen Mucklow as
the sad, vulnerable, indecisive, passive victim type
Dr. Bruce seems to be saying she was!
To me so far, Dr. Bruce's selection and typing
process says more to me about Bruce, than it does anything related to the real Tina Mucklow ...
In fact, I find all of this just a little bit laughable
and perhaps sad, on Dr. Bruce's part.
How much can we learn about Cooper by focusing
on the crew?
I am not even convinced Cooper 'selected' Tina at
all so much as Tina just wound up in a position
having to sit with Cooper, primarily because of
Scott's instructions! It hasnt been highly publicised
but Hancock also had exchanges with Cooper ...
I doubt Dr. Bruce even knows about that.
georger 264
QuoteNote: I only came here to do an update but read the post about Tina and had to make comments.
I need verification of something.
It has been stated that Duane was with Family on that Thanksgiving. I need to know who the party is who made this claim to the FBI. He was NOT with his ex. or a girlfriend. I have letters and phone calls from every member I could contact yrs ago and NO one knew where Duane was at that time.
I expect I know where the story came from and others the FBI should have interviewed have no recollection of Duane being there.I won't go into the details, but the FBI if they were told this - were lied to and they accepted this statement as gospel. They need to talk to the remaing individuals who were there - they should have done this in 1997. I did.
I am doing what I should have done yrs ago - get written affidavits and recording.
P.S. Sluggo - your post made me realize that time is slipping a way.
I have lost some of the witnesses to different parts of Duane's life, but not all.
I will say this just to set the record straight, about
where I stand in this -
I think you have done Jerry and Shelly a real diservice.
Ralph likewise.
Much of what you have you owe to them, in one
way or another. When you arrived in WA in 2001
Jerry, Shelly, and Ralph were completely innocent
parties. They only tried to be of service and had
no agenda, but wound up being pulled into your
affairs. without so much as a thank you. Its no
wonder they are upset.
And I support them as their friend. Make no mistake
about that.
Im just trying to illuminate the terrain on which we
all find ourselves -
QuoteThe carnival sideshow just gets worse and worse here. Does anyone remember that this thread is actually about a man who hijacked an aeroplane?
Ummm...no. What airplane?
I am currently blaming my "rampant anxiety" on
those Wall Street wizards who abused my 401K.
This has been the ongoing problem.
People with theories who try to conform the event
to their picture.
It would be nice to have one fact that related to
the event. We could discuss a fact.
Instead, it is weeks of scrolling through tinfoil-hat
alien-abduction sasquatch theories.
"I know this guy named Bob who had a hat.
DBC wore a hat..."
I haven't seen anything approaching a tenuous
speculation in value.
If there are other clues, I fear that we will never hear
of them until the final dot is connected.
QuoteMuch of what you have you owe to them, in one way or another. When you arrived in WA in 2001 Jerry, Shelly, and Ralph were completely innocent parties. They only tried to be of service and had no agenda, but wound up being pulled into your affairs. without so much as a thank you. Its no wonder they are upset.
When I arrived in Portland in 2001 and before and since Mr. H. has been helpful and considerate - he is a great man and I respect him. Jerry and Shelly did take some phone calls and I tried to describe the area (this was prior to 2001) - Jerry claimed there was nothing like I described.
I was disappointed Jerry was not there in 2001. The TV crew chose their own guide for whatever reason. I had asked for Jerry to be the quide. I have never met Jerry or Shelly and since Jerry claims the sites do not exist how does that translate into I owe him for what I have. According to Jerry and most of the forum I don't have anything......
If Jerry had been the quide in 2001 I might have been able to show him those areas. As it turned out I spent 4 days and learned nothing, until the truck driver told me about 2 places that last day - and by then the TV crew was gone.
What upset me with Jerry was his insistence the places didn't exist and he repeatedly told me I was lieing and I didn't find the places and I had no witnesses. I wasn't lieing and I am not now. Those places do exist.
I had one or two communications after the May 2001 trip, but Jerry he was upset with me. I didn't know why so I just let it go. The drift I have gotten since this forum is that the Crew told him I didn't want him there.
I now have maps where I can direct him to the approx. locations that I didn't have at that time. I kept talking about a river and it was a lake, but I didn't know that. It was very frustrating.
Now things have changed so much that it seems futile. With the maps I now have and my marking the areas - he might be able to locate these area. I know that most of them have developed so much since 2001 (viewing current ariels) and one of the reasons I didn't go out there last yr.besides my not being able to accomplish much on my own and my health.
PS for the FBI
Ross and Lawrence, Ks - came right back at us - Duane Weber was not there Thanksgiving of 1971, so why did "Margaret" say he was?
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 264
What upset me with Jerry was his insistence the places didn't exist and he repeatedly told me I was lieing and I didn't find the places and I had no witnesses. I wasn't lieing and I am not now. Those places do exist.
well places are often in the eye (or mind) of the beholder. I myself have been to places I thought
existed, or should exist, only to be corrected by
locals ........ and it always turned out the locals
were correct. Jerry was looking for Cooper too.
Had you described some place Jerry was unaware
of I think Jerry would have been the first to say:
"Oh my God!", and things would have progressed differently to everyone's mutual benefit. That did not happen.
It is not uncommon at all to have outsiders come
into an area with maps and even a few guides and miss vital locations in a search.
In any event, except for the palcard and some money, no trace of Cooper has ever been found,
so far as I know.
Jerry has a spotless reputation. Jerry has never
claimed any item he found, is connected to the Cooper case. In all of his years of searching Jerry has never claimed one item, as belonging to
Cooper. To date, Jerry' story is 100% consistent
with the rest of the known facts in this case.
In addition, Jerry has helped countless others in
conducting their search attempts based on ideas others had developed or thought they had (including you), above and beyond Jerry's own personal searches based on his own time, based on his
own theories.
Jerry may not have found Cooper but does know
where Cooper isnt!
That is a solid record of achievement which few in
the FBI can even claim.
I would think you would want to applaud Jerry
for his efforts.
That is a 100% success rate in my book.
You obviously are contending Tina Mucklow had an
abusive father. On what do you base that contention?
You knew Tina Mucklow and her family? You have
factual data from some source that Tina Mucklow's
father was abusive? Do you have hospital records
from your prior work in psychiatry you cite, about
Tina Mucklow? Did you work at a facility where Tina
was being cared for and she was under your
personal care or authority? What is the source of
your knowledge you are speaking from ???
Please make yourselves clear. Inquiring minds
want to know!
Thank you Mr. or is it Dr. Bruce?
abusive father. On what do you base that contention?
You knew Tina Mucklow and her family? You have
factual data from some source that Tina Mucklow's
father was abusive? Do you have hospital records
from your prior work in psychiatry you cite, about
Tina Mucklow? Did you work at a facility where Tina
was being cared for and she was under your
personal care or authority? What is the source of
your knowledge you are speaking from ???
Please make yourselves clear. Inquiring minds
want to know!
Thank you Mr. or is it Dr. Bruce?
Greetings Georger:
Cousin Brucie will do.
Do I have any facts about Tina’s mental health and life? Nope. Just reading the tea leaves here. Observations from what is known behavior of the principals.
Hence, Tina is an interesting gal. When I see good-looking women bringing bibles to work, or other talisman of support, i.e.: dolls, I think of patients I have known who do the same. Hence, I make an association to Tina and wonder if her reasons are the same, i.e.: recovering from sexual abuse.
Regardless, the essential question is why talk about Tina's mental health at all. I do so, with great concern for her privacy and possible fragility, but also with great interest because she's the one who described the tie at her debriefing in Reno. Yet, the Reno FBI guys have no recollection of seeing the tie, nor recovering it. To me, that's a red flag.
Now, Jerry Thomas has speculated to me in a phone call that he thinks the first federal guy on 305, or one of the first, such as Red Campbell, spotted the tie and instantly realized he had a diamond of a clue. Jerry thinks that individual kept it secret even from his fellow FBI agents to make sure he had an iron-clad "prove-it" clue to any wannabe confessing to the crime.
That's one possibility, and knowing how the FBI worked under Hoover, very plausible*.
Another possibility is that the tie was a plant, and placed – for reasons still unclear - into the evidentiary collection – another red flag here - four days after the hijacking, as Russ Calame writes in DB Cooper-The Real McCoy.
If it's a plant, then how did Tina make her tie disclosure during her de-briefing? One possibility is that a hypnotic suggestion was placed into her consciousness prior to the hijacking by the folks who planted the tie.
A stretch? You bet.
However, it all comes back to Danny Boy. Why did he leave his tie on 305, if in fact he did? Absentminded? Hmmm, he was pretty sharp in all other facets of the caper. Forgetting a tie left in plain sight is also a stretch to believe.
Tina snatched it for a souvenir and then gave it to the Feds, or was prompted in-flight by them to get evidence? Hmmm, also possibilities.
Another one is that Danny left it as a "howdy" to family and friends, ala Duane Weber and Jo's hypothesis. But then, once identified to his family, he had to leave them totally – complete abandonment – in order to preserve his freedom. Whew, tough gig. But again, Duane seems uniquely capable of walking away from his past. Such behavior would require an enormously compartmentalized mind and emotional being that again, strongly suggests personality disorder. Never call your mom? Your kid? Not a goodbye kiss for your wife? Whew. If in fact that is what Duane did, post-November 24, 1971, and here I’m drawing upon Jo’s recent postings for some detail on this possibility.
We all bring what we’ve got to this party. Some of you have extensive aviation backgrounds; most have sharp minds and expressive tongues, and all are fueled by dogged intent. Me, I have a familiarity with psychiatry, and I see a ton of behavioral clues that call for examination.
Yet, with all this, what I most desire, and most hope to gain from this forum, is a better understanding of how the FBI functioned, and is functioning, in this case. Who called the shots? How were decisions made? What is the nitty–gritty of the FBI’s investigation of DB Cooper? In that pursuit, the utter silence of Ralph, Larry and others – not to tell me what they think of Barb Dayton or Tina’s mental health - but to remain silent on what they did, are doing, and why, raises an enormous red flag.
As my mother would say, their silence speaks volumes.
*Russ Calame, in his book DB Cooper, The Real McCoy, describes the Bureau as one where an agent could make an extra 200-300 bucks a month – direct from Hoover and in cash - by doing snazzy sleuthing, like picking up a tie on 305. This suggests two things – one, Hoover was intimately involved in the investigative work his agents were doing and begs the question of what his involvement was in the DBC case, and two, he bred a culture where FBI agents didn’t trust each other as robustly as one would think, or hope for, and how did that shape the Bureau’s investigation of DB Cooper? I.E.: did Campbell pick up a couple hundred extra for snatching the tie, but ultimately sabotaged the case?
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
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