DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Happy just talked to Ralph.He was not aware of this shoe you found But is very interested Can you get a beter discription of this shoe to me the shoes cooper was wearing was very distinctive. Jerry

funny!

[snowmman 3]

The 25th Air Division included McChord SAGE.

picture is 1966 at Mt. Hebo. You can see the tunnels that led out ot the parking lot that were in the prior picture of Mt Hebo from then, that I posted. I suppose to protect against rain/wind/snow?

From L to R - Lt Col Walter O. Reil (689th Radar Squadron Commander), Major General Elder (Commander 25th Air Division), 1st Lt Steve Weatherly (Radar Maintenance Officer). Foggy days were frequent on top of Mt Hebo.

from http://trees.ancestry.com/view/military.aspx?tid=4992037&pid=-1513505021&gss=seotrees

(edit) Elder was no long Commander by 5 March 1966.
It sounds like it would have been Major General Archie M. Burke that was Commander on 11/24/71

from http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/25th-Air-Division

Here's the history of Commanders around 1971
Major General William E. Elder, 1 June 1964;
Brigadier General John A. Rouse, 5 March 1966;
Colonel Morris E. Petty, 1 May 1969;
Major General Archie M. Burke, 14 November 1969;
Major General Jack K. Gamble, 13 March 1972;

[happythoughts 0]

The information that was in the quotes was from the article.
If you click on the link, it will explain more.
I did not find the shoe.

[georger 265]

Quote

The 25th Air Division included McChord SAGE.

picture is 1966 at Mt. Hebo. You can see the tunnels that led out ot the parking lot that were in the prior picture of Mt Hebo from then, that I posted. I suppose to protect against rain/wind/snow?

From L to R - Lt Col Walter O. Reil (689th Radar Squadron Commander), Major General Elder (Commander 25th Air Division), 1st Lt Steve Weatherly (Radar Maintenance Officer). Foggy days were frequent on top of Mt Hebo.

from http://trees.ancestry.com/view/military.aspx?tid=4992037&pid=-1513505021&gss=seotrees

(edit) Elder was no long Commander by 5 March 1966.
It sounds like it would have been Major General Archie M. Burke that was Commander on 11/24/71

from http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/25th-Air-Division

Here's the history of Commanders around 1971
Major General William E. Elder, 1 June 1964;
Brigadier General John A. Rouse, 5 March 1966;
Colonel Morris E. Petty, 1 May 1969;
Major General Archie M. Burke, 14 November 1969;
Major General Jack K. Gamble, 13 March 1972;

here's a better blowup of the radar screen -

[snowmman 3]

Picture attached.
This is interesting, since C-141's were the first jet paratroopers jumped out of. (side door, as we discussed)

Evidently they flew to Vietnam a lot? Wouldn't it be weird if Cooper really was a loadmaster on a C-141 at McChord, maybe late '60s? Also note three C-141 accidents with fatalities.

http://www.mcchordairmuseum.org/REV%20B%20OUR%20HISTORY%20%20MAF%20BASE%201950-1970.htm

On August 5, 1966, a new era began for the 62nd, and McChord AFB, when the first Lockheed C-141A StarLifter s/n 65-000277 piloted by then 8th Military Airlift Squadron Commander Lt Col. George Demmon arrived to McChord from the Lockheed factory in Georgia. On August 9, Miss Washington 1966 Sandra Marth assisted by Lt Col. George Demmon christen the Wings new C-141A as the "Tacoma Starlifter" during the base's official acceptance ceremony.

Tragically on the morning of September 7 of that year the Wing suffered its first C-141 loss when one of their four assigned StarLifters under routine maintenance exploded and burned on the McChord ramp killing two injuring four. The aircraft 65-000281 was the second aircraft assigned to the Base.


As C-141's arrived they were quickly pressed into service, flying troops and supplies into action in Southeast Asia unfortunately 62d MAW C-141's were involved in two fatal accidents. On March 22, 1967 C-141A 65-9407 was lost after a collision with a A-6 Intruder on the runway at Da Nang, Vietnam, 5 of the six crewmembers were lost. On April 12, 1967 a second C-141A (s/n 66-0127) was destroyed with its crew during takeoff Cam Ranh Bay, Republic of Vietnam.

[JerryThomas 0]

I realized that after I made my post. Sorry for the mistake.Jerry

[skyjack71 0]

[

Quote

Might Cooper have been associated with some CIA op in the past? Sure. He could have been a smokejumper who did CIA airdrop stuff in SE Asia.

It is a big leap from having worked in some CIA afflilated project to being a real CIA agent

.

When I say Covert - that is what I mean - someone who did some of things the government could not be connected to - such as what JMWave did. I do not believe Cooper was a CIA agent and he had no afflilation that could be acknowledged.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

There are some great photos of the C-141's I mentioned at McChord.

It hadn't sunk in that the C-141 had a T tail like the 727. I guess you want that with the side door.

Here's the one that burned. (pic attached)
http://www.c141heaven.com/65/pic_65_0281.html

On 7 September, 1966, 65-0281 was the first C-141 destroyed. It blew up while simultaneous hazardous maintenance procedures were being performed. Three maintenance members were killed in an explosion of the Right Extended Range tank.

The Wing at McChord had recently converted to the StarLifter. The first aircraft had arrived on 9 August 1966. This aircraft, 65-0281, was the third C-141 to be stationed at McChord, and had arrived on base just a week before, on 29 August, 1966.

The maintenance teams had minimal practical experience with the new airplane.

It was having multiple maintenance difficulties. The Right Extended Range Tank feel gage was erratic, and the AC "Power On" Light was inop. Two electricians were in the cockpit working on the "Power On" Light. A Maintenance Team Chief was also in the cockpit with three trainees. In addition, he was supervising a maintenance team on another aircraft. The Assistant Team Chief had started de-fueling the Right Extended Range Tank to prepare it for troubleshooting. The other fuel tanks were full.

Two additional technicians arrived to work on the fuel gage before the de-fueling was complete. One of the electrical technicians connected testing equipment to the fuel tank but failed to ground it. The other technician plugged an extension cord into the external 115V AC receptacle of the APU. The live extension cord apparently came in contact with the case of the test equipment. Electricity flowed through the case, up the cables into the tank. Due to a short in the coaxial shielding a spark was created within the nearly empty tank. The right wing exploded.

The Assistant Team Chief standing under the wing, and the technician on the wing were killed almost immediately. One of the technicians in the cockpit was badly burned while exiting the right troop door into a burning pool of JP-4. He died a few days later. The others on the aircraft received only minor injuries.

[snowmman 3]

this next url has a first person account of the C-141 that had an accident with an A-6 in Danang . There's a pretty dramatic photo there along with a longer description of what happened.

As a weird coincidence, there was only one survivor, the loadmaster.

"Tragically, five Air Force crewmembers died in the fire. Only the loadmaster escaped out the aft section of the plane."
Both Marine crewmembers of the A-6 survived.

http://www.c141heaven.com/65/65-9407/danang_tragedy.html

"This aircraft was destroyed at Da Nang AB, Vietnam, on 23 March 1967.

This C-141 was destroyed while taxiing in after landing. As it crossed the inner parallel runway it was struck by an aircraft on takeoff roll.

The C-141 had just flown a nearly six-hour leg at night, to a GCA approach with weather of 700 feet and 2 miles visibility. After landing on the outer of two parallel runways, the crew turned off at mid-field and taxied toward the ramp. They were struck by a Marine A-6 taking off on the inner parallel runway.

The C-141's cargo included acetylene tanks. The A-6 was loaded with sixteen 5OO# bombs. Both aircraft were destroyed in an intense fire. Five of the six C-141 crewmembers were killed. One loadmaster survived. Both Marine crewmembers escaped with major injuries.

Poor radio equipment in the tower hampered communications between the aircraft. During the investigation, tower personnel stated that they had not cleared the C-141 to cross the inner active runway. Landing and taxi lights were not being used by either aircraft; both were displaying only navigation lights."

[snowmman 3]

from http://www.c141heaven.com/66/pic_66_0127.html


"An omitted checklist item caused the spoilers to deploy to the 'Ground' position during takeoff roll. The aircraft became briefy airborne before crashing into the sea. Seven crewmembers were killed. A pilot in the outboard ACM seat and a loadmaster survived.
The plane had flown from Yokota AB, Japan, to Cam Rahn Bay. After offloading cargo, the crew prepared for a night departure back to Yokota. During completion of the Before Takeoff Checklist, on taxi out, the copilot inadvertently left the automatic Spoiler Select Switch in the 'Autoland' position, instead of the 'Rejected Takeoff' (RTO) position. Un-noticed by the crew, between 34-60 Knots, the spoilers automatically deployed to the ground position. The crew noticed a reduced acceleration rate, but elected to continue the takeoff.

The aircraft became airborne, accelerated poorly, began a shallow descent, and crashed into the sea just off the end of the runway.

The Aircraft Commander had earned a Distinguished Flying Cross 18 months earlier, for safely landing a C-124, after one of the engines had fallen off!

As a result of this accident, the Takeoff Warning system was wired to include the Spoiler Select Switch, and the auto spoilers were eventually disabled entirely."

[skyjack71 0]

Jerry, this story and stories like it have circulated for yrs. Yes, Himmelsbach is aware of this story...why would you think it is new?

I had a co-worker (boss) who even claimed to have been in the military and part of the search effort and even he made a claim of a loafer being found by someone in the search group. This shoe story was investigated and discarded - yrs ago.

Like the rest of the story - what is Myth and what it Truth? That special shoe was alligator grain - truth or myth? Now how the hell did I know that? How do I know it was NOT a penny loafer?

Phil or someone in his unit is still telling that darn loafer story ----------------believe me if that loafer had checked out it would have been in the evidence locker when it was found. Why not? - because Cooper wasn't wearing a penny loafer.




Who said this? Snow I think it was you!

"What amazes me, is guys like Jerry come on here, and profess the religion of "facts". And then in the next breath start talking about how they know Cooper is a "common criminal" and how he jumped in the woods, and all sorts of random speculation."

Suprise, surprise - he didn't even know the "loafer" story. And the biggest suprise of all - is that he claimed to have spoke with Himmelsbach and H didn't remember the "loafer" story.

OK - there is a clue hidden up on a hill under a BIG rock. But someone moved that darn rock and now I can't find it - the place Cooper hid his shoes.
Jerry - you do realize what I said is a joke?

It is time to go to bed on that one - at least I know that I did something right today - Dug up Cooper's loafer and put him in the CIA.

Geez - I am beginning to sound like Georger

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[JerryThomas 0]

Wrong Jo like I sayed I just spoke to ralph and asked him about it. Give it up or just take a polygraph test. The aligator grain is correct that is why I asked for more info. unlike you my info comes directly from true sources and nothing is made up. Your info came from Books ralph and myself that involves case. By the way how's Duanes family doing. See you soon

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Wrong Jo like I sayed I just spoke to ralph and asked him about it. Give it up or just take a polygraph test. The aligator grain is correct that is why I asked for more info. unlike you my info comes directly from true sources and nothing is made up. Your info came from Books ralph and myself that involves case. By the way how's Duanes family doing. See you soon

Jerry:

I still have a hard time understanding how you believe you have info that others don't have. What true sources are you talking about? And why do you care so much about Jo and polygraph tests and court and tapes and I don't know what else? How about threatening me with court more? Not fun?

With regard to the shoe, we have these two descriptions:

Tina
"brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not the tie type"

Flo
"black shoes"

Where did you get "alligator grain" from? And why are so confident about the shoe? Are you just paraphrasing Tina's description?

(edit) I attached a pair of boots with a "pebble grain" finish. black.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snow a polygraph will prove she is lieing. Are you related to Jo or just want a false story to continue. To incourage her is not helping her. Do so if you like and don't just say not fun. Get it.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Snow a polygraph will prove she is lieing. Are you related to Jo or just want a false story to continue. To incourage her is not helping her. Do so if you like and don't just say not fun. Get it.

Jerry. I like Jo. I think you're an idiot.
That simple.
Get it?

[JerryThomas 0]

Coming from you thats a compliment

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Snow a polygraph will prove she is lieing. Are you related to Jo or just want a false story to continue. To incourage her is not helping her. Do so if you like and don't just say not fun. Get it.

Jerry whenever I make a post you immediately ATTACK with the same story over and over - polygraph and lies and insinuations about Duane's family.
I have been told that a polygraph at this late date would be to no avail. I offered to take a polygraph in the very early stages of the investigation -WAY before you ever heard of me - 1996 when I first contacted the FBI and several times since.

There is NOTHING I am lieing about. I have like everyone else explored different theories and I also have a little fun with this once in a while.

Why do I get under your skin - is because of your book/movie/pilot deal you signed? Are you afraid that what I have to say will get in the way?????Remember the first time I talked to you in 1997? Did you go out there and find something - and now you got it tucked away so you can solve the Cooper story? You thought I would just go away or die - but that is not happening fast enough to satisfy you. Right?
.

How does it feel to be accused of something you didn't do? How would you feel if everytime you posted - I said - bad things about you? Jerry that is called a personal ATTACK and it is not acceptable on a regular basis. Because you say the same thing everytime - you are doing what you were trained to do - interrogate - Jerry, I am not a prisoner of war in Vietnam or Korea. Coercion has no place in a public forum.

We all know your opinion of me - you do not have to keep on repeating it. I believe Himmelsbach had a talk with you about this...how many silvers did you pull tonight.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

Polygraphs prove nothing. Someone who truly believes what they are saying will pass even if it is a load of hogwash. If I believed I had been adbucted by aliens to extract the secret CIA info I knew, I would pass.

Just because someone truly believes in a conspiracy theory doesn't prove anything other than that person can find NO evidence to back up their claims about Cooper.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Quote

Polygraphs prove nothing. Someone who truly believes what they are saying will pass even if it is a load of hogwash. If I believed I had been adbucted by aliens to extract the secret CIA info I knew, I would pass.

Just because someone truly believes in a conspiracy theory doesn't prove anything other than that person can find NO evidence to back up their claims about Cooper.

Orange is right. Women who claim to have been sexually molested by aliens have "passed" polygraph exams, whatever "passed' means on such an unproven technique for testing truth. At best polygraphs measure stress. Delusional people don't feel stress when recounting their delusions.

I had a criminal defendant tell me how he beat a polygraph exam. He hid a thumbtack in his shoe and pressed it painfully against his foot when answering control questions, like what his name was. When asked questions designed to determine if he had committed the crime he relieved the pressure and answered falsely. He claims to have "passed".

Hey Snow, don't you think Jerry deserves an apology? Jerry is an experienced feet on the ground guy in a geographic area of interest. There is a lot that you can't see on Google Earth. Even though you two disagree on some DBC things, he has been pretty decent to you. I'd hate to see him leave. Give it some thought.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

Why do I get under your skin - is because of your book/movie/pilot deal you signed?

Man, sounds like everyone except me has a movie/book deal. This seems to be the accusation of choice on the forum: you are (lieing/concealing/misleading) because you have a secret movie/book deal.

Nobody has made any serious money off of any DB Cooper literary or dramatic work and nobody ever will. The story has very limited appeal. It is still interesting to the general public but not enough to make them shell out money. They will get their fill from the news media. I, however, will buy any book that anyone here writes about DBC, even one written by Jo if she cares to do it. A sale of one copy is guaranteed.

Even if Galen Cook is correct about Gossett, his book will not make the NY Times best seller list nor will a movie version of the book be a blockbuster. Any DBC book will be a labor of love, not a get rich quick thing.

If Jerry has a book deal more power to him. Jo, if you can get a deal, go do it. Nobody is gonna retire on the proceeds.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

We can get data for 377's theory on book sales.

looking at amazon.com for books currently in print (used books not listed here)
The sales rank is how many other books sold more than the title.
Using an estimation from
http://www.fonerbooks.com/surfing.htm
which has a graph...We can estimate #books sold based on the ranking. You can read the page above, but it sounds like he's done reasonable estimating job.

Basically, if your Amazon sales rank is below 1,000,000, you can estimate the sales at .1/week. i.e. 1 book sold every 10 weeks.

This is confirmed by http://www.dogearpublishing.net/Newsletter_Amazon-Sales-Rankings.aspx who suggests that a sales ranking below 1,000,000 means about 1 book per month.

D. B. Cooper - Portrait of an American Hijacker (Biography) (Paperback).
Published 2/4/08
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #846,553 in Books

The Legend of D B Cooper (Hardcover)
by Pat Forman (Author), Ron Forman (Author)
Published 8/19/08
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,556,791 in Books
(another listing thru lulu.com ebook)
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #951,112 in Books


D.B.: A Novel (Paperback)
by Elwood Reid (Author)
Published 7/12/05
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,118,041 in Books

UNDER SUSPICION: The Legend of D.B. Cooper (Paperback)
by James Olszewski (Author)
Published 11/21/08
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,669,732 in Books


The Pursuit of D.B. Cooper (1981) / Region 2 DVD PAL / Starring: Treat Williams, Kathryn Harrold, Robert Duvall Directed by: Roger Spottiswoode (1981)
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #78,476 in Movies & TV

(edit) strictly speaking we should average the ranks with a couple of samples..suggested methodology is "A general rule of thumb (first proposed by Morris Leventhal of FonerBooks) is to note your rank twice a week for four weeks, then divide by 8. This will show your "average" Amazon sales rank. "

But by sampling multiple books, and seeing they are all similar, it's reasonable to guess that the sales volume doesn't change much, except maybe if the FBI beats the drums to get Cooper Media going again.

[snowmman 3]

Now there's a relatively current fiction book "Manner of Death" by Stephen White (who has written a bunch of fiction books) that incorporates DB Cooper, and is more successful.

Published 1/1/2000 by Signet
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #385,739 in Books

The opening paragraph in the book is
"Adrienne's tomatoes froze to death the same night that Arnie Dresser did."

(page attached)
I also attached page 192, where DB starts to get mentioned.
(first mention is on page 134)
You can see the mentions here
http://www.google.com/books?id=JAdyYw9IJgYC&pg=PA192&dq=d.b.+cooper

Here's reviews

Amazon.com Review
The spirit of D.B. Cooper--the legendary hijacking parachutist--hovers over Stephen White's latest book about Colorado psychologist Alan Gregory, and this jaunty ghost gives the outing even more stylish substance than usual. By adding elements of Cooper's crime and disappearance (with a large amount of cash) to a story of medical malpractice and resulting revenge, White--a practicing Colorado psychologist himself--pushes the envelope of what's real and what's fictional to the advantage of both.

After attending the funeral of a former colleague from his days as an intern, Gregory is accosted (and has a tempting Mexican lunch spoiled) by a pair of edgy ex-FBI agents now working for a high-ticket private security firm. They believe that the colleague's "accidental" death on a hiking trip is really part of an attempt to wipe out everyone who was part of a particular team in a psychiatric unit at the University of Colorado's Health Services Center in Denver in 1982. As members of that team, Gregory--and his former lover, Sawyer Sackett--are among the few remaining survivors and the next likely targets. Overhearing this news causes a waitress to drop two platters of green chili burritos in a messy clatter.

D.B. Cooper becomes an important part of the story as Gregory, his prosecutor wife, Lauren (whose multiple sclerosis leads to some unusual and important observations), their cop friend Sam Purdy, and the two ex-FBI agents zero in on possible suspects--one of whom has an abnormal fascination with the hijacker's life. White spends a tad too much time on Alan's past history with the mysterious Sawyer, but in general his narrative engine runs smoothly and powerfully toward its satisfying and largely unexpected conclusion. Other Gregory books include Critical Conditions, Harm's Way, Higher Authority, Private Practices, and Remote Control.

From Publishers Weekly
The invigorating twists and turns of practicing psychologist White's (Privileged Information) new Alan Gregory thriller drag readers over rugged Colorado terrain, past a gauntlet of eccentric characters spawned by the Rocky Mountain lifestyle, through the most intimate details of the protagonists' lives, leaving them gasping at the switchback ending of this chilling stalker novel. Attending the funeral of a former colleague, Boulder psychologist Alan learns from two quirky ex-FBI agents that this is the latest in a string of clueless murders targeting the entire group of students, supervisors and staff who shared Alan's clinical psychology residency some years earlier. Only Alan and his former lover, Dr. Sawyer Sackett, now survive, and they are undoubtedly next on the killer's hit list. Alan's wife, Lauren, a prosecuting attorney afflicted with multiple sclerosis, is threatened as well, but throws her considerable skills fully into the fray. Alan's friend on the Boulder police force, Detective Sam Purdy, provides police clout, FBI equalizing and protection for Lauren. The pros go after former patients, but Alan and Sawyer snoop best, tracing a lead involving legendary hijacker D.B. Cooper and some truly disturbed suspects. White conveys his love for Colorado and his profession while delivering an evaluation of the mental health industry. Martinet shrinks and caring analysts get equal billing, while both the promise and limitations of psychology are cleanly spelled out. A newly honed sense of humor adds zip to White's prose without detracting a mite from the menace and gore. Literary Guild, Doubleday Book Club and Mystery Guild selections.

[snowmman 3]

377 said:
"Hey Snow, don't you think Jerry deserves an apology? Jerry is an experienced feet on the ground guy in a geographic area of interest."

I would never apologize just to curry favor, to try to "get" something I might want.

I am not this thread.

If you guys want something from Jerry, then you have to curry your own favor. Don't put it on me, and say someone left because of me. That's lame.

Do something yourself to make him stay if that's what you want.
You and Orange1 and Mr Nuke should chat him up more.

[1969912 0]

re: "Manner of Death": So maybe Cooper worked at Rocky Flats. Now there's a(nother?) nuclear weapons connection

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[snowmman 3]

Quote

re: "Manner of Death": So maybe Cooper worked at Rocky Flats. Now there's a(nother?) nuclear weapons connection

heh..I just noticed that as I was clicking thru the pages at Google Books. I actually didn't know about this book when I was talking about uranium etc jokingly. Funny. I think people tie together the classic multiple consipiracy/suspicion/drama things all the time.

Here's another weird coincidence..after I was posting that stuff, someone at the house got this book on uranium, for I don't know what reason (I think school)
http://www.amazon.com/Uranium-Energy-Rock-Shaped-World/dp/0670020648/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238876495&sr=8-1

I didn't read it but it sounded good (just published 3/5/2009)

SAGE kind of brings the nuclear story back in full circle. (soviet nuke bombers)

Hey, maybe in my DBC book, I can say that the bomb description was a coverup.

DBC actually had a crude nuclear device. And that's why they cut him so much slack. And he jumped with the nuclear device, which landed in the Columbia with him.

And Himmelsbach has been in charge of the coverup ever since, because they were worried about lawsuits, and public fear, with an unfound nuke device still out there somewhere...

Until one day, some weird guy on an internet forum puts it all together, and goes out with a shovel, and unearths the device.

The meat of the story is what happens after that...