DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

I lost my post and some good references, but everything seems to say that the dredge "Oregon" is a 30" hydraulic pipeline dredge owned by the Port of Portland.

There's a long history of 30" pipeline dredges owned by Portland.

A 30" pipeline dredge was built for the Corps of Engineers in 1912. The last time Portland had a big channel deepening was in 1912. (this was from a 1912 Corps. of Engineers report in Google Books)

However here's another called "Clackamas" that was constructed by Port of Portland, reported in a 1927 book, that was a 30" diameter discharge pipeline dredge.

And from the US Congress, House. Commitee on Appropriations in 1966, they were talking about another new 30-inch pipeline dredge (5000 horsepower)

In 1959, this book talks about operating four 30-inch pipeline dredges simultaneously.

In any case, 30-inch seems to be kind of standard for the Portland guys.

Ah here's a reference in a 1965 book that says the Port's "new 30-inch pipeline dredge OREGON"


SO: That means in 1965 the dredge OREGON was considered new. I'm betting Tosaw is right that it was 30". I'll go further and suggest it was the OREGON.


They've recently been working on deepening. There was a new guy Cook who was put in charge in 1999.

They have four other hopper dredges, but we know it was a pipeline dredge at Tena Bar. Also we have to remember it's 1974, not now.

Tosaw reported a 30" pipeline dredge, supposedly talked to someone.

Attached photo of the dredge Oregon

[georger 258]

  Quote

jumping past the Cooper question, since it's unanswerable, another first order determinant would be whether he landed in the Columbia. Regardless of training, death would be likely.

We also have to rexamine our thinking on the money. We stopped talking about bag protection theories. It's likely the Clay Report is correct, and the money arrived post '74.

Did the money move around with the bag? Seems a stretch.

I still really like the dredging theory. Cooper in the columbia, dredge pump spit out the money.

Why? Because Ckret's information about what can pass thru these dredges is just wrong. (I've provided info and pictures before, but here's some more)

Here's a quick cite: (remember a molded-together stack of 3 bundles is smaller than a 6 inch sphere. A bill is only 2.61 inches wide and 6.14 long, and they can flop a bit.

The size it can pass depends on the pump. This reference just mentions passing 4 to 6 inch sphere.

"sphere passage" is the metric they use when describing a pump and what jams it. (because that determines the cutter head you can use)

http://www.dredgingspecialists.com/AquaticRemediation.htm

) Problems With Hydraulic Dredges.

a) Continual plugging of the dredge pump with oversize debris. A dredge pump will pass a 4 to 6 inch spherical object. However, a 10-inch long stick can jam in the eye of the impeller. A few sticks, boards, metal objects, leaves, cattails, and you have a plugged pump. The only way to remove a plug from a dredge pump is by hand. This puts people in contact with muddy, sloppy, contaminated material. Contaminated material is slopped all over the deck of the dredge, back in the water and in boats, as it is transferred to shore.



In this book "Slurry Systems" by Baha E. Abulnaga
http://books.google.com/books?id=yuZNmg2QWzEC&pg=PT447&lpg=PT447&dq=pipeline+dredge+impeller+sphere&source=bl&ots=iqK5KJ_vXx&sig=42lEWwO5GWBlb4R7q88TVpURxP0&hl=en&ei=jQzLSeHSE4KOsQPx9Z2hCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

There is a table of "Recommended Maximum Size of Spheres for the Design of the Width of Vanes of Slurry and Dredge Pumps"

(edit) He's talking about the diameter of a sphere that will pass thru the impeller in the pump. Note that wet money bundles could also be protected by sand as they pass thru the pump. First order is understanding the size of the pump and it's sphere passage.


The Sphere diameter in the table goes from 3" to 21" for dredge pumps.

It depends on the discharge diameter.

The point being: without knowing the exact pipeline dredge used, we have to allow for the possibility that the dredge could have passed the object.

The small amount of data Ckret provided (some testimony) is insufficient. Ckret's testimony implied that the presence of "blades" in the impeller was obvious enough that the money would be shredded. That assumption is wrong.

Since dredging seems to fit the rest of the data, for having moved the money, then we really need to find out what dredge was used, and revisit the idea that the dredge had to destroy the money. It may have destroyed a lot of it. All we need is 3 moldy bundles stuck together.

It's basic.

If TK and the Citizen's Work Force wanted to do a good experiment, it would be passing bundles thru the same pipeline dredge that was used in 1974.

A high school science fair project would think of that.

p.s. I'm really curious what would drag Himmelsbach out to a "conference". His book is out of print. Used copies are relatively expensive. He's not pitching his book. Does he have anything useful to add? What kind of people want to listen to him? Who was at the conference?

Distilling this, yes, its a fact there was dredging
that dumped material on Tina Bar.

If the money was part of the material dumped
then the dredge picked the material up where,
given other evidence the river bottom seems remarkably clean?

A dredge digs down into the bottom how far?
How would a bag of money have been bottom-fixed
at all, except by a snag?

On the other hand we see the piles of material dumped and spread out on the bar. We see a
shift and slide of one pile back toward the river.
By '76 much evidence of a deposit in late '74
is gone (from photos).

Isnt it just as likely the money came to Tina Bar in
late '71 or early '72 and was silted in place approx 100ft up from the shoreline, and then covered over by the dredging silt, then finally exposed by erosion between late '74 and early '80?

[snowmman 3]

georger mused: "isnt it just as likely the money came to Tina Bar in
late '71 or early '72 and was silted in place approx 100ft up from the shoreline, and then covered over by the dredging silt, then finally exposed by erosion between late '74 and early '80?"

We have pictures of Tena Bar from '71 on.
I thought the distances are estimatable and that 100' up like you say wouldn't fit....you start hitting other stuff.

I guess you could draw it out on some pictures. But I think there are some issues with ideas like it moving way out, and then way back down. try working on a photo?

[snowmman 3]

georger asked:
"How would a bag of money have been bottom-fixed
at all, except by a snag?"

could have stayed attached to Cooper.
Cooper could have deployed the chute and drowned.

If he landed at night in the storm in the Columbia, deployed, he probably would have drowned without anyone noticing.

(edit) If a 30" dredge was used, the dredge story is very compelling. Everything suggests it was 30". If we're doing science, it would be a lot easier to talk to the dredge guys at Port of Portland, than doing floating experiments of unclear value.

I was amazed at how adamant Ckret was about his dredge testimony. Would have been simple to go check again. He went and checked with Ingram again. Why not with the dredge guys?
I can't understand how Jerry says Ckret was such a hotshot agent.

Sure, it's free-time work. But there are psycho guys, single, that would spend more time on it. Not rational, but would get more done. That's why we need a new agent. We need a sick motherfucker, not a normal guy.

[georger 258]

  Quote

georger mused:


Mused? Are you amused?

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

I hadn't gotten this from his book, but in this news article, it says he got a full list of dredging projects from the Corps of Engineers, and that only the 1974 one was interesting.

HIS SEARCH FOR DB COOPER GIVES HIM A SECOND CAREER
$2.95 - Miami Herald - NewsBank - May 11, 1985
He obtained a list of dredging projects from the corps and said only one of them, in 1974, could have deposited debris on the proper spot on the river bank. ...

Over breakfast coffee, Tosaw showed off the list of dredging projects the corps had provided him and said only one of the projects, in 1974, ...

p.s. Georger suggested "narcissim" at one point.

I will admit that I loved this scene in Malice. He was such an ass! (Alec Baldwin as Dr. Jed Hill). I believe he ad-libbed, and the line at the end was supposed to be "Let me tell you something - Duane is God".

(sometimes when I read a georger post, I'm picturing Dr. Jed Hill!)


"I have an M.D. from Harvard. I am board certified in cardio- thoratic medicine and trauma surgery. I have been awarded citations from seven different medical boards in New England, and I am never, ever sick at sea.

So I ask you: When someone goes into that chapel and they fall on their knees and they pray to God that their wife doesn't miscarry or that their daughter doesn't bleed to death or that their mother doesn't suffer acute neural trauma from post-operative shock, who do you think they're praying to?

Now, go ahead and read your Bible, and you go to your church...and, with any luck, you might win the annual raffle. But if you're looking for God, he was in operating room number two on November 17, and he doesn't like to be second guessed. You ask me if I have a God complex. Let me tell you something: I am God."


vid at
http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2007/malice-god-p1.php

[quade 4]

  Quote

quade Haven't talked to you before now is my chance .I agree with your comment about this thread being about the cooper case. and I think it should be that way. Is there any way we can keep people off this thread that makes up stories to fit there fantisies. I believe that the facts in this case can and should be reviewed by all. I just left a conference in Portland that Ralph and I spoke at. all that was presented was the facts.Then we opened it up for questions. alot of the normal questions came up. They were answered with facts and knowledge /experence / common sense involving the case.There are times that people contact both Ralph and I by telephone that we do not make people aware of. This is only fair to all, we must keep the lines of comunication opened.However I feel there is a fine line between building a story and adding to it in order to gain personal satisfication.Your call is always respected I would not post this comment if I didn't think it was neccesary I Know a alot of the people on this thread personaly and I am happy with most of them.I do believe that there expertise in there fields are very important. The key word is expertise and not fantisie. Jerry Thomas

People can discuss the topic from whatever point of view they happen to have on the subject as long as they follow the basic rules of the web site. In other words, no. We're not going to be stifling anyone's story no matter how much it may remind you or me or anyone else of Baron von Munchausen.

Consider it part of the price you have to pay to be able to freely speak your mind.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[377 22]

we'd like to keep the conversation about DB Cooper confined to this ONE thread. The biggest reason is so it doesn't spin off into 10,000 threads which are much more difficult to manage.***

Quade obviously has been trained in infectious disease control.

Diagnose, segregate, isolate.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

from www.shipspotting.com

Dredge Oregon. Columbia River at Vancouver, Washington.
17 Feb. 2007.

30" pipeline dredge owned by the Port of Portland.

attached.

Funny, there are guys who watch ships, like 377 watches planes. (but I guess 377 watches boats too, fishing at least)

They evidently just replaced their 41 year old dredge tender "Don' and got a new one for $2.4 million.

1500 hp tender. (I guess it moves the pipeline and the dredge)

http://www.portofportland.com/pdxaminer/Pdxaminer_curr.aspx?contentFile=Issue_2005_02/Content/page4.ascx

[snowmman 3]

1) Money was found on Tena Bar. Assuming that no human plant story makes sense, then it had to move thru the Columbia somehow.

2) No water path other than the Columbia makes sense in terms of flight path.

3) If Cooper landed in the water, the whole money-find set of data, makes it more likely to have been thrown up by dredging, than random flotation, (whether in 1971, 1974 or any other time)
I say more likely because:
a) we know the money had to arrive there after 1974.
b) a pipeline dredge outputted directly to shore within 100' of the money find, in 1974.
c) we know the sand was moved around by heavy machinery afterwards.
d) pieces of money were found besides the 3 bundles (small pieces)
e) The condition of the money suggests it had been at Tena Bar for a while (the decomposition pattern)
f) buried rubber bands in sand and cold/damp may have survived that long.
g) Nothing else was found, like a bag.
h) Dredge acts like a funnel, sucking deposits from a large area and depositing to a small area. Increases the probability for Tena Bar (addresses the question: why Tena Bar? Because of the probability multiplier effect caused by the dredge)
i) We know sand moves a lot on Tena Bar. So the money could have been buried deeply for many years (more than 3") and exposed in 1980.
j) Need to test the theory that 30" pipeline dredge was used, and could pass three bundles decomposed together in a sand/water slurry.

Alternatively a human plant or drift scenario has to be created that's more probable.

The drift scenario probably includes Cooper in the Columbia also.

Human plant stories seem implausible.

[BruceSmith 3]

I just left a conference in Portland that Ralph and I spoke at. all that was presented was the facts.Then we opened it up for questions. alot of the normal questions came up. They were answered with facts and knowledge /experence / common sense involving the case.

  Quote

Greetings Jerry,

I would welcome any advance knowledge of DB Cooper-related conferences. Was this one a private affair, or one open to professionals and interested parties?

I would have gone if I had known about it.

In the meantime, can you give us a synopsis? Salient points made? Tidbits that tickled your fancy?

• Quote

[JerryThomas 0]

Touch"ee!

[JerryThomas 0]

Bruce Smith I will notify you of all upcoming engsgement's from now on . I believe you live in Roy Wa. I'm easy to contact. Please do so If you like.

[georger 258]

  Quote

I hadn't gotten this from his book, but in this news article, it says he got a full list of dredging projects from the Corps of Engineers, and that only the 1974 one was interesting.

HIS SEARCH FOR DB COOPER GIVES HIM A SECOND CAREER
$2.95 - Miami Herald - NewsBank - May 11, 1985
He obtained a list of dredging projects from the corps and said only one of them, in 1974, could have deposited debris on the proper spot on the river bank. ...

Over breakfast coffee, Tosaw showed off the list of dredging projects the corps had provided him and said only one of the projects, in 1974, ...

p.s. Georger suggested "narcissim" at one point.

I will admit that I loved this scene in Malice. He was such an ass! (Alec Baldwin as Dr. Jed Hill). I believe he ad-libbed, and the line at the end was supposed to be "Let me tell you something - Duane is God".

(sometimes when I read a georger post, I'm picturing Dr. Jed Hill!)

  Quote

PLEEEZE do not put words in my mouth, especially without explaining your intended context, if you have
anything in your mind:

p.s. Georger suggested "narcissim" at one point.

Are you trying to start a war here or what?
Think you are immune?
Think you can do damage because its the Internet
and nobody cares?
Thinks if people are damaged its their fault?

Why am I an ass? We know why you are what you are
and it is the reason you are excluded!

How long do we have to put up with this, Snowmman?




Quade: I have had enough of Snowmmans and Jo's
insults. Its been going on for months. How much are
we expected to take ?

Whgat these two jerks are doing goes way beyond freedom of speech or anything related to that -

I am wondering if its even safe to be here with
people like Snowmman and Weber here.. I am
now going to make my thoughts known to outsiders
who also monitor this socalled forum.

I may be an "ass" as Sbowmman says but something tells me this is not the firtst time
Mr. Snowmman and Jo Weber have been through
this kind of thing, experienced internet games
players that they obviously are. So be it.


Thanks.
Georger

• Quote

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[georger 258]

h) Dredge acts like a funnel, sucking deposits

[JerryThomas 0]

Yes the new dredge is great it takes in all material and does not deposit any of it in the side of the river It does hold all the deposits in its holding tanks and exspels it at a desegnated area controlled by the Army Corps Of Engineers. Just off the colubia River.Questions pertainig to this operation can be found on line very easily But you already know that.

[JerryThomas 0]

Georger Research shows that on Dec 19th of 1971 was the high flood stage. This is the info you requested it also was the same level as all the other years. Info can be found at the vancouver library and with the FBI records.

[JerryThomas 0]

Bruce Nothing tickled just common Knowledge Ralph and i have shared for years. Maybe a tidbit you already know. Cooper was a common criminal and not Duane Weber or Collins.

[georger 258]

NOTICE TO THE GROUP:
SLUGGO EMAIL VIRUS NOTICE!

I have received an email from Sluggo informing me
and others, that someone got into his computer
system and is sending out emails under Sluggo's
name, which contains a virus.

It is safe to assume whoever is sending the emails
has the email addresses of anyone and everyone
who has ever communicated with Sluggo - which may
include members of this forum.

I can only assume Sluggo will post here about this
problem as soon as he can -

Sluggo did not identify the virus contained the FAKE
email going out under his name -

Perhaps Snowmman can help in this matter given his extensive IT and chip design background. ??

Please direct any questions to Sluggo at his
website or to his personal email address which is up
and working. Sluggo told me he is picking up the pieces which may account for him not posting
here about the problem.

If anyone here can explain or add further information,
please do so.

This is a bonafide post and notice.

I hope Sluggo doesnt mind my having posted this
for the benefit of people here -

Georger.

[JerryThomas 0]

Quade why don't you post on this thread more often. I for one would welcome your comments and concernes on a daily basis I don't post that much My wife got upset and will never post again . Althouth she does like orange 1 georger 377 , and yes she does like the Blank mann(snowmman) I don't Know why. That being said I would realy enjoy your comments on alot of these mater's.I mainly monitor this forum and this thread. I would have never posted on it if it wasn't for a personal Invite. You have a job to do by monitoring this thread.Or should I say police work. At any rate your job is unrewarding and at best very confrontationable (sp) My request is be real and only let all that post be honest and real. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Yes thank you I recieved the same message I did not realize it went out to more than one

[JerryThomas 0]

Georger I have more details on food stages for 1971 thru 1981 if you want them Also a trailer park that Jo discribes across the washougal river bridge was not in existant in 1971 0r 1980 bummer for her and I bet that she can tell you when the bridge was built ( the new one ) but can she tell you when the old one was built and who built it. I don't think so At least any guess of her's would be wrong.Or Her research will be wrong. Maybe it was Brad Pitt. Who Knows.

[Orange1 0]

  Quote

It was only my stomping and screaming in this forum that Carr did a cursory look at the files for the reigistration card and claimed he found none.

Were you there watching that you know he made a "cursory look"? My recollection of his posts on this matter implied he had looked as well as he would for any other evidence and could find no trace of it in the files. He was careful to point out that this didn't mean it never happened, just that he could find no evidence it did. So your use of the word "claimed" in a way that makes it sound like you don't believe him is very unfair. Once again you cast aspersions on the very man you kept on saying "must" do this, that or the other for you. No wonder he is no longer here. I don't think anyone has any doubt who is to blame for that.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

  Quote

Quade obviously has been trained in infectious disease control.

Diagnose, segregate, isolate.

377

Oooh THANKS 377!!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

So far, I do not know of anyone who has gotten a (confirmed) virus from the e-mail. Some recipient’s SPAM filters blocked it, others opened it and followed the link. I know of no one who downloaded the “Language Converter” which (in my opinion) probably contained a virus.

Neither Norton Antivirus nor Super Anti-Spyware has located any Viruses, Mal-ware, Spyware, or Ad-ware on my home system.

I have no idea where it came from, it may have been a web page, or an e-mail (I get dozens a day (from my adoring fans
I first became aware of the issue yesterday morning when I got about 14 “Message Undeliverable” notices in my inbox. I knew I had not sent anything out overnight, so I investigated and found the message had been sent to (almost) everyone on my Outlook Contacts list. I guess it’s a good thing I haven’t kept my contacts list up to date.

It is a shame that the bad guys always seem to stay one step ahead of the good guys. I think most of my contacts trust me (in the cyber-sense) and were willing to open the e-mail even if it looked somewhat suspicious.

If someone finds that they have actually gotten a virus, please let me know and identify it. Maybe that will answer some questions.

Have a cyber-safe day,

Sluggo_Monster

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