DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

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"Georger, remember, half the people in WA have someone waiting for them when they come home, or call the cops if they don't. DB didn't have that."

Ok here's my training come out:

Bruce's statement implies that half the people DON'T have someone waiting for them or call the cops if they don't...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

I was picking thru the debris, and if I remember right, Tom seemed to imply he wasn't able to release FBI archive data until after he published his paper. There was the edict from WA that put a clamp on "something". A clamp is only necessary if there is data that's not already released. So Tom has something, even if there is no chemical marker. It might just be old data, but it must be new to us.

His recent info suggests he might not have enough for a paper now.

If I put two and two together, that suggests we might be able to get the new archive data earlier, since there will be no paper.

Tom took at least one digital photo while he was undercover. The SR-71 overflight that never happened, but was reported by FBI agents so they could appear to be doing something.

Depending on when Tom bought his camera, the resolution of the pictures taken, and whether he had spare flash cards, an estimate of capacity vs individual image size says there are probably a lot more pictures that Tom took.

I'm guessing he took pictures, rather than scanning stuff, just because that was quicker.

So the best angle, I think, for new information, is Tom's camera.

(edit) I found some other guys running a similar "Citizen's Breakfast Club" scam here, although they seemed to have scaled up better than our CooperPonzi.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/03/12/border.security.cameras.immigration/index.html

I was thinking of contacting whoever the Big Man is there, and seeing if we can come to an agreement. We give him a taste of our action, he gives us a taste of his action.

Hey, there's too much oregano in the pasta sauce, dammit, pay attention!

[377 22]

I prefer to think that Toms "clamps" are self imposed. The thought of the FBI muzzling science or any expression or publication really raises my blood pressure.

There is no FBI bypass switch on the First Amendment, although the courts and Congress have just about given them one on the Fourth Amendment with the ironically named Patriot Act.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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I prefer to think that Toms "clamps" are self imposed. The thought of the FBI muzzling science or any expression or publication really raises my blood pressure.

There is no FBI bypass switch on the First Amendment, although the courts and Congress have just about given them one on the Fourth Amendment with the ironically named Patriot Act.

377

Right. Now I'm sure that Tom's a nice guy.
What bugged me with the Tom thing, was this sell job that Tom represented Science. When Tom's not done anything.
Tom was on TV, giving the interviewer a little commentary about how you could do science with anything, even fishing poles.

That's great. Kids need to hear that. Science is cool. Using your brain and tools and technology is cool.

But the dark side of "science" is the closed-community, information-is-power and publish-or-perish. i.e. it's all about individual contributions rather than group.

Anyone tracking open-source development in the computer world should be in awe of what new-generation thinking can achieve in large complex projects.

Its scary when the shades are drawn open, light is thrown on something, and all of a sudden things are not as sophisticated as we've been told.

Get over it.
Everyone and everything is kind of just bumbling along.
Hiding information works against success.
It's a fact.

(edit) We use Google a lot in this forum. While they have a lot of proprietary stuff, they were really enabled by being able to throw lots of cheap servers together. If they had used Microsoft software, they would have had to pay thru the nose. Their stuff is all Linux based (free although they've modded it for themselves, which they were able to do because it was open source. They stood on the shoulders of others). Is Google an advance for society or a negative?

[377 22]

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Hiding information works against success.
It's a fact.

Hiding information seems to have worked really well for Cooper.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I was thinking if I have any bit of "the pot calling the kettle black"

As I posted before, the only thing I think I've not posted about was when something popped up that I thought was a really cool suspect that matched what I was looking for at the time.

In hindsight, I think I just got excited by the idea of finding something that matched what I was looking for.

There was an additional thing that happened around that time, that made me wonder if the FBI actually did talk to him. Which is why I was all interested in whether or not the FBI actually does any work on this case, like interviewing people. I concluded that they don't. I may be wrong.

In thinking about "facts", I think the idea that no one ever talked does lend itself to a theory that Cooper died.

However, I was able to come up with scenarios that matched a "no one ever talked" scenario with a live guy. So I didn't know what made sense.

I didn't post about it, because there was nothing we could do. It also made me realize the futility of what we do, if there is no FBI investigation. i.e. it's not possible for us to find Cooper. Also, even if there was a live Cooper, there would be no conviction. So what's the point? The only point is the same as reading a mystery novel. It's cool if you can figure it out. We need more information to do that.

I found solace in just enjoying the historical digging up of information about the '70s, and realizing there were things I didn't really understand from back then.

(edit) I consider it a challenge to see if I can "turn" Jerry. You can see how the Weathermen didn't have much of a problem pitching their view of the world back then!

[377 22]

I am with you Snow, it is a hell of a mystery and fun to try and figure it out. I do think we might get lucky and solve it even if the FBI doesn't do much. It is a longshot but it's fun to dream about longshots.

All the self confessed Coopers remind me of the problem that faces ballistic missile interception: ICBM launched decoys. They have many attributes of warheads. They drain resources often allowing (in simulations) the real MIRV warheads to hit the target. It just amazes me how many people confessed to being Cooper and have some Cooper attributes that dont let you rule them out immediately.

A live Cooper could be prosecuted even with the missing cig butts IF the FBI had something else that unambiguously put him in the plane, like a solid fingerprint or something they havent talked about.

If the FBI knew that there had been a spoliation of evidence fatal to an eventual prosecution, I doubt if they would have reopened the case in such a public manner. I bet they are holding something back. It would make sense.

Ckret didnt get one bit flustered about the cig butts and it may be because he knows their loss is harmless error. It would be harmless if they get a suspect who matches something left on the plane that the FBI knows about, but we do not.

On what basis did the FBI rule out Gossett? Whatever it was did not convince Galen Cook to abandon his theory.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

377 said:
"A live Cooper could be prosecuted even with the missing cig butts IF the FBI had something else that unambiguously put him in the plane, like a solid fingerprint or something they havent talked about."

Yeah there could be a fingerprint. I think Ckret has some but just doesn't know if it could be worth anything. Obviously if he got a match, boom it's evidence. Otherwise it's unknown.

People have made a point of saying Ckret is just a regular guy and we should believe everything he says. That is probably true.

But there are little things like how the FBI hid the tie knowledge for a very long time, even within the bureau. The SLC guys in the McCoy book had to really dig to get acknowledgment of the Cooper tie, and a photo. It was apparently in Seattle. I think it's possible even the guys at Reno were keeping mum, thinking that was their big wild card.

In the book they act like agents just "forgot" but I think it was about keeping the ace card knowledge well hidden.

There was talk in the McCoy book about Cooper magazine reading, for instance. May be false. Who knows?

Ckret said that the agents were told to go back on the plane after the first round of prints were found to be unusable. And that when they went back they dusted the magazines and got something, but Ckret didn't like the fact that there was no testimony that said people saw Cooper reading the magazines.

So what's true there? Maybe they do have a good magazine print?

What's really odd is that Ckret introduced this time delay into the prints. i.e. the first round of prints, then the second round. He made it sound like the second round came after higher-ups said "find something". I don't know if he was joking.

In the McCoy book they did mention how the plane needed to be turned around quickly to return it to service. And I think Ckret said seats were removed.

So the whole idea of what evidence they removed from the plane (prints, etc) and how long it took before the plane was returned to service, is an interesting one.

[subterraneanus 0]

This is my first and last post. I've been avidly reading this and the previous thread for over a year now, but that is coming to an end. Snowmman is such a personal turnoff for me that I can't bear spending any more time here. His posts have simply become repellent, and I'll have no more of them. There are other DBC resources online, so I'll make use of those instead.

[Shakes head and wanders away ...]

[snowmman 3]

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This is my first and last post. I've been avidly reading this and the previous thread for over a year now, but that is coming to an end. Snowmman is such a personal turnoff for me that I can't bear spending any more time here. His posts have simply become repellent, and I'll have no more of them. There are other DBC resources online, so I'll make use of those instead.

[Shakes head and wanders away ...]

I actually thought "low-life" was rough. But "repellent" is better than that. More visceral. Although missspelled.

I offer no defense, other than, for a writer, if someone reads, it's hard to think of oneself as a failure. Newspapers, take heed!

Thanks for the feedback.

(edit) use of "bear" and "repellent" reminded me of grizzly bear repellent and Barb being chased for 8 days. In Montana it's pretty amazing the size of the pepper spray cannisters they sell because of griz. Various opinions on whether it works.

[377 22]

Sub,

Were you reading Snows repellant posts "for over a year" under a different name? Your current one has only been registered a few days.

I like Snow because of the sometimes truly amazing information he brings to the forum. I have long theorized that he is friends with Sergey Brin and has access to special Google tools we cant use.

I have learned to live with the sardonic, confrontational and sarcastic stuff, it really doesnt bother me at all. Maybe you could learn to take it the way I do and not be offended or repelled. Jerry has mastered the technique in a only few days. He is one of those sly fish who doesnt rise to the bait.

Reconsider your departure Sub. We welcome newcomers, even those who have been lurking in silent pain or repulsion for more than a year.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Snowmman,


When this crossed my desk this morning, I thought of you. (I thought of you too, georger, but mostly the snowmman.)

Los Alamos Researchers Create "Map of Science"
This "Map of Science" illustrates the online behavior of Scientists accessing different scientific journals, publications, aggregators, etc. Colors represent the scientific discipline of each journal, based on disciplines classified by the Getty Research Institute's Art and Architecture Thesaurus, while lines reflect the navigation of users from one journal to another when interacting with scholarly web portals.

I don’t know why I bother to share it with you… you being so repellant (or is it repugnant) and all. And, you’re a Damn Yankee to boot. Maybe it was your statements about "online scientific journals" a few days ago.

I was really sad to see subterraneanus leave. I’m going to miss him. He made some great contributions to this forum (thread). I don’t know if we will survive without his insightful commentary. It’s all your fault snowmman.

Ah shit, let him go, I didn’t like his tone when he’d get on a rant against snowmman. As we say in the ‘Deep South”; “Lurkers are like a box of chocolates, once they’re gone you can’t even remember when they were there.”

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Thanks Sluggo.

What got me thinking about scholarly journals, is how the FBI has their own journal for real forensic scientists. I was reading some of it. It's great.

I was really wondering how they would perceive Tom's work. I mean, an amateur, poaching on their territory? I mean they do real forensics.

It'd be really nice to get a real criminal forensic scientist, who's been published in those journals here, too.

Did everyone get the Jan 2009 issue in the mail? If not there could be an issue with the mailing list, and please go here to read the latest. Hi Ben Garrett! welcome aboard!

(Do you think the article on DNA was targetted to us? are they trying to tell us something about the tie DNA???)

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/current/index.htm

(edit) oh p.s. My home page is http://www.google.com
For most of the posters here, I suspect it's
http://scholar.google.com/schhp?hl=en&tab=ws

[snowmman 3]

(edit) On reread, I figured this post is too obscure. It's taken verbatim from Ben G. in the mag link above. I believe I could help Ben with email. I think the lawyers, of eternal lambasting, might think in turn:
"First thing: we fire all the WMD scientists"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
My role is identical to that of other Senior Scientists, although the context varies. In my case, the context of my work is weapons of mass destruction, or WMD. In keeping with my background, I am best suited for the portion of WMD that deals with toxic chemicals, especially chemical warfare agents. But I am also comfortable in matters dealing with biological weapons and nuclear weapons, although I possess limited understanding of the physical and chemical properties of the biological pathogens and nuclear materials themselves.

Within the WMD context, I feel that I am expected to take on senior-level responsibility for planning, leading, and executing research likely to have a major impact on the ability of the U.S. government to conduct the forensic examinations and supporting analyses to aid in attributing a WMD event or incident. This expectation means I must work with my colleagues within the FBI, across the U.S. government (often referred to as “the Interagency”), and with selected international partners to ensure that the capabilities and capacities are available to conduct these forensic exams and analyses. It also means that I serve as a senior-level advocate within the Interagency and with our international partners for the proper role of the FBI Laboratory with regard to WMD investigations.

In fulfilling such expectations, I also work with FBI Laboratory Executive Management to ensure that we have the necessary staff to support forensic requirements attached to WMD attribution; we have trained and cultivated these staff so that their qualifications match our needs; and we have the infrastructure, equipment, instruments, and procedures consistent with our position as the world’s premiere forensic laboratory in the field of WMD.

...
(added)
What’s the most challenging part of your job?

I face challenges typical of many who are gainfully employed: trying to stay abreast of the communications in this age of the intranet, Internet, and BlackBerry devices. These communications require that I be proficient in sorting the important ones from the others and that I respond both appropriately and promptly. By the way, I much prefer face-to-face communications to those passed via the intranet or Internet. But I use e-mail, too, and understand its usefulness. Still, sorting through the messages is a challenge.

[JerryThomas 0]

Sub It's sad that you want to leave this forum. I would like you to remain as I'm sure many others would also. Snowmman is realy a great asset and a good person.He helps this forum alot.When you get to know him I'm sure you will discover that although crude sometime's, his comments add interest to this forum Jerry

[snowmman 3]

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Sub It's sad that you want to leave this forum. I would like you to remain as I'm sure many others would also. Snowmman is realy a great asset and a good person.He helps this forum alot.When you get to know him I'm sure you will discover that although crude sometime's, his comments add interest to this forum Jerry

When I need to remove a lot of material, I always reach for the 12" mill bastard file. Right tool for the right job.

[JerryThomas 0]

Wouldn't it be easier to use a power grinder instead Thats what they do in the metal trades instead of the bastard rasp.Do you know how to use a two ft framing square to make a 45 degree angle.

[georger 258]

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I prefer to think that Toms "clamps" are self imposed. The thought of the FBI muzzling science or any expression or publication really raises my blood pressure.

There is no FBI bypass switch on the First Amendment, although the courts and Congress have just about given them one on the Fourth Amendment with the ironically named Patriot Act.

377

I guess this is how I get a gruff reputation, when
IQ's drop below 30. Why is it always me who has
to sort these things out? Then it turns out I have
sorted nothing out.

The public, ie, you and me, Tom, Dick, and Harry,
Sno, Jo, and Mo... cannot speak for or be surrogates for, or claim to speak for or be surrogates for .......... this is all lawyer talk and YOU are the lawyer! .... the FBI.

So if any non FBI person posts a photo which is then
assumed to be FBI material, an association is
implicit, potentially.

It's just like if you posted a logo for your City Government on your photos and posts. Any implied
association would be false. Yes? Of course it would.

It is like that with the FBI ....... or any governmental
agency of agency of authoirity, and on and on and on.

Guage even gets upset when kicked out folks sneek back in under new nyms. Big no-no!

well all of theabove explains part of it. I will let
your paranoia fill out the rest. I am just a simple
cow tending pleb in this matter, so what in Hell
do I know!

Ignore ever-thang I said.

Understand?

[georger 258]

Quote

This is my first and last post. I've been avidly reading this and the previous thread for over a year now, but that is coming to an end. Snowmman is such a personal turnoff for me that I can't bear spending any more time here. His posts have simply become repellent, and I'll have no more of them. There are other DBC resources online, so I'll make use of those instead.

[Shakes head and wanders away ...]

Stick around. The killing hasnt even started.

I get upset with Snow too.

Then I realise he doesnt know any more than
Nixon did, and I feel better.

Take a break. Go chase the cat around the
neighborhood and you'll feel better. (I used to do
that. My cat now chases me! Damned cat@!).

[georger 258]

Quote

Thanks Sluggo.

What got me thinking about scholarly journals, is how the FBI has their own journal for real forensic scientists. I was reading some of it. It's great.

I was really wondering how they would perceive Tom's work. I mean, an amateur, poaching on their territory? I mean they do real forensics.

Reply> So, apply.

• Quote

[georger 258]

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Wouldn't it be easier to use a power grinder instead Thats what they do in the metal trades instead of the bastard rasp.Do you know how to use a two ft framing square to make a 45 degree angle.

Snowmman probably invented it!

[377 22]

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I guess this is how I get a gruff reputation, when
IQ's drop below 30.

If my IQ is below 30 surely that qualifies me for some stimulus or bailout money. Bring it on!

As for the Patriot Act, read it sometime. Might as well drop of your house keys at the police station so they don't break your front door down when they feel like making a warrantless search. The framers of our Constitution would be aghast.

I want one of those WMD analyst jobs. I could program a word processor to issue reports that capture the spirit of that pathetic interview.

As for the FBI, they had a podium here and could prevent "misbranding." It is still unoccupied waiting for them to return.

I want more hardware talk, NB6, NB8, C9, radar plots, transponder codes, SAGE, F 106s, T 33s, TTY transcripts... something tangible I can sink my teeth into.

Been thinking more about whether Cooper could be prosecuted. The FBI must be pretty certain he could be or they'd just let the sleeping dog lie. I really wonder what ace they are holding that renders any lost or mishandled evidence irrelevant?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

the case was filed in court under John Doe leaving the case opened with out a staute of limitations so yes the case can still be proscuted.

[snowmman 3]

Published on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 by the Los Angeles Times
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0308-27.htm

A Break-In to End All Break-Ins
In 1971, stolen FBI files exposed the government's domestic spying program.
by Allan M. Jalon


Thirty-five years ago today, a group of anonymous activists broke into the small, two-man office of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in Media, Pa., and stole more than 1,000 FBI documents that revealed years of systematic wiretapping, infiltration and media manipulation designed to suppress dissent.

The Citizens' Commission to Investigate the FBI, as the group called itself, forced its way in at night with a crowbar while much of the country was watching the Muhammad Ali-Joe Frazier fight. When agents arrived for work the next morning, they found the file cabinets virtually emptied.

Within a few weeks, the documents began to show up — mailed anonymously in manila envelopes with no return address — in the newsrooms of major American newspapers. When the Washington Post received copies, Atty. Gen. John N. Mitchell asked Executive Editor Ben Bradlee not to publish them because disclosure, he said, could "endanger the lives" of people involved in investigations on behalf of the United States.

Nevertheless, the Post broke the first story on March 24, 1971, after receiving an envelope with 14 FBI documents detailing how the bureau had enlisted a local police chief, letter carriers and a switchboard operator at Swarthmore College to spy on campus and black activist groups in the Philadelphia area.

More documents went to other reporters — Tom Wicker received copies at his New York Times office; so did reporters at the Los Angeles Times — and to politicians including Sen. George McGovern of South Dakota and Rep. Parren J. Mitchell of Maryland.

To this day, no individual has claimed responsibility for the break-in. The FBI, after building up a six-year, 33,000-page file on the case, couldn't solve it. But it remains one of the most lastingly consequential (although underemphasized) watersheds of political awareness in recent American history, one that poses tough questions even today for our national leaders who argue that fighting foreign enemies requires the government to spy on its citizens.

[skyjack71 0]

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(Do you think the article on DNA was targetted to us? are they trying to tell us something about the tie DNA???)

Well, maybe so because if the story I was told about "a tie" and if it was true then we would have lots DNA from other related persons - with NONE of them being Cooper.

Frankly I don't think they could have gotten DNA from the tie that would have been acceptable because it was handled by too many individuals over the last 37 yrs and they did not use plastic gloves on most things back in those days unless they thought they had prints on it. If they got several DNA''s and some were related - they have to put some stock in what I told them.

Just had to put my 2 cents in.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber