DB Cooper

[georger 269]

Quote

got it.

I'm being perfectly straightforward in saying I don't understand what Safe is trying to get at,

REPLY> and nobody else does either!

Its all mind games. Nostradamus:

"Follow the evidence" ..."Fundamental Mistake" ...
"When I was able to demonstrate..."Hidden truth".

It's Jo talk. But he does get people to react as if he's got something. If he had something he would have found Cooper years ago and be famous.

Safe is either the laziest genius in Washington
or he's in a wheelchair on oxygen and can only
post once every Blue Moon when somebody brings him a new battery?

Safe wins the Skooter Chair Award.

• Quote

[georger 269]

If there was an SR-71 spy plane overflight of the US, as part of a domestic criminal investigation in 1971, that would be huge interesting news. (CIA -> domestic)

Reply> Hi altitude IR scanning perhaps? Even if used it didnt find him?

[snowmman 3]

Tom

And others may chime in here.

But my foggy memory on the Flight Data Recorder conversation with Sluggo, led me to believe that the length of the flight might have led to some data being overwritten.

I.e. it was designed for accident investigation, so it overwrote because of limited storage back then. Endless loop kind of deal. (on a crash, you don't have to worry about this issue)

Not all data had the same overwrite behavior though.
(I think there were two storage mechanisms? not sure)

So what you want, is what data would have been available in Reno, without overwrite..ie..all the way back to the jump site.

This is an important issue, I think.

I'm just dumping my thoughts before I go looking in case someone out there has some stuff in their head to help steer.

(edit) Paper? I guess I never would have thought paper for a 1971 flight recorder. wire recorder or something, maybe. will see.

[TomKaye 1]

My recollection about these things is that they are wire recorders with two wires. They can stand the heat better.

Go get 'em Snow!

Tom

[georger 269]

Ok Snow, I have made good with the data. Now the forum can do something for me. There was a black box on 305 and it was used somehow in the data analysis. The FAA has no record of it. Ckret spent a LOT of time looking for it in the files and came up empty. I need an example of the RAW black box data from that era, preferably from a 727.


Reply> Tom there was something on this here way
back - Sluggo finally posted on it as I recall ?

[snowmman 3]

The 70's had a big transition. Since we're talking 1971, maybe only the old foil stuff was available.

Maybe I was thinking of the cockpit voice recorders when I talked about overwrite.
Just getting started looking.

from boeing site:

History of Flight Data Recorders
Flight data recorders were first introduced in the 1950s. Many first-generation FDRs used metal foil as the recording medium, with each single strip of foil capable of recording 200 to 400 hr of data. This metal foil was housed in a crash- survivable box installed in the aft end of an airplane. Beginning in 1965, FDRs (commonly known as "black boxes") were required to be painted bright orange or bright yellow, making them easier to locate at a crash site.

Second-generation FDRs were introduced in the 1970s as the requirement to record more data increased, but they were unable to process the larger amounts of incoming sensor data. The solution was development of the flight data acquisition unit (FDAU).

As shown in figure 2, the FDAU processes sensor data, then digitizes and formats it for transmission to the FDR. The second-generation digital FDR (DFDR) uses tape similar to audio recording tape. The tape is 300 to 500 ft long and can record up to 25 hr of data. It is stored in a cassette device mounted in a crash-protected enclosure.

[snowmman 3]

(I'm looking to see if they used QAR, Quick Access Recorder back then also?)

(from url at bottom)
1972 Flight Data Recorder Rule Change

FDR requirements remained virtually unchanged until December 10, 1972 when the rules for transport category airplanes that received type certification after September 30, 1969, were amended to require an expanded parameter digital flight data recorder (DFDR) system.

The expanded parameter requirements included existing parameters plus parameters for pitch and roll attitude; thrust for each engine; flap position; flight control input or control surface position; lateral acceleration; pitch trim; and thrust reverser position for each engine.

Unfortunately, this rule change, which was retroactive to include the Boeing 747, did not affect airplanes such as the Boeing 707, 727, and 737, and the McDonnell Douglas DC-8 and DC-9, all of which had type certificates issued prior to 1969.

Therefore, existing and newly manufactured versions of these older aircraft types could be operated under the same FDR rules established in 1957. The flight recorder requirements remained essentially unaltered until the issuance of rule changes in 1987 and 1988.

(edit) just background, the current requirements are pretty complicated, depends on all sorts of things (attached)
from http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/symp_rec/proceedings/authors/grossi.htm

(edit) UK and French developed other storage mechanisms around that time. Doesn't apply for us, but interesting.

"At about the same time as the foil recorders were being developed in the United States, recorders that used magnetic steel wire as a recording medium were being developed in the United Kingdom.

The wire recorders were the first to use digital pulse coding as a recording method.

The robust design of the wire recorder made it a fairly reliable recorder for its time. Although the wire recording medium was fairly impervious to post impact fires it did not fair as well with impact shock. The wire would often brake into several sections and become entangled making it difficult and tedious to reassemble in the proper sequence.

In the late 1940s, the French developed an FDR that used a photographic system that recorded data on light- sensitive paper. It had obvious disadvantages: inflammability and the tendency of the recording to disappear when subjected to light.

The French later adopted the metal foil oscillographic recorder.

[georger 269]

Quote

My recollection about these things is that they are wire recorders with two wires. They can stand the heat better.

Go get 'em Snow!

Tom

Tom we had the following post here - may be significant"

SkydiveJack United States JumpsLicenseIn sport : 7100: D 6486: 34 years
Jan 21, 2008, 8:39 PM Post #1260 of 1694 (922 views) Registered: Jul 18, 2003Posts: 539 Re: [awsee1] 2000 trip [In reply to]

In Reply To
Ok. I found it hard to believe that the flight recorder wouldn't have been accurate. No GPS back then, but the WAAS beacons that existed still correct GPS signals for accuracy from about 100 meters to about 3, even today. Not sure they were that accurate back then with all the upgrades, but we're certainly not dealing with mash. Bren
Flight Data Recorders back then did not record navigation data. They only recorded somewhere between 6 to 9 parameters. Things like altitude, airspeed, thrust, maybe flap and gear position. I don't remember all of them but I do know that cabin pressure was not a parameter. Therefore there is no navigation/flight path recorded from the actual airplane. (BTW, there would be no record of the pressure bump and it's time other than the pilots.) Back in 1971 the recorders used a big spool of tape and it had to be replaced when it was full. The cockpit voice recorder is a separate system that recorded only a 30 minute loop then re-recorded over itself. So there would be no record of the pilots conversation except the last 30 minutes into Reno. You are correct that there was no GPS back in that day, then mention "the WAAS beacons that existed". I'm not sure what you mean by this but the WAAS system I am familiar with is only just starting to be put in place. The beacons that existed back then (VOR's) worked well but were nowhere near as accurate as GPS is today. The only record of the flight path would be from ground based radar. I hope the FBI saved the tape records of this, not just the diagrams that were drawn up at the time!

[snowmman 3]

ATC and Other Radar Recordings

Recorded radar data can provide aircraft position time history information. This is accomplished by recording the position coordinates of individual radar returns, time, and when available, altitude and identification information transmitted from the aircraft. The altitude and identification data are produced by a transponder fitted to the aircraft that also reinforce the radar return. A transponder is a receiver/transmitter, which will generate a reply signal upon proper interrogation from a radar facility.

The rate at which the radar antenna rotates will determine the sampling interval between returns. ARTCC rotate at between 5 to 6 revolutions per minute (i.e., generating radar returns every 10 to 12 seconds) whereas airport approach radar antennas do a complete rotation every 4.8 seconds.

The most accurate position coordinates recorded by the ARTCC are in latitude and longitude, whereas approach radar records position coordinates as range and azimuth values, and both record the transponder-generated altitude values.

[snowmman 3]

As a fer-instance of what the 727 might have had. Still looking.

5 parameter analog. Examples in pics:
Sundstrand FA-542
Lockheed LAS-109C

Calibration of the FDR sensors and general reliability of a mechanical recorder were problems for investigators relying on this data

Recorded
Pressure altitude, indicated airspeed, magnetic heading, vertical acceleration (load factor) and microphone (radio) keying versus time.


Davall Wire FDR with digital was used on some later models

two pics attached.

707 was 60's era.

from http://www.asasi.org/papers/2007/The_Evolution_of_Flight_Data_Analysis_Neil_Campbell.pdf

[georger 269]

Quote

As a fer-instance of what the 727 might have had. Still looking.

5 parameter analog Lockheed LAS-109C

Recorded
Pressure altitude, indicated airspeed, magnetic heading, vertical acceleration (load factor) and microphone (radio) keying versus time.


Davall Wire FDR with digital was used on some later models

two pics attached.

707 was 60's era.

Reply-
The poster I found said no wire - tape.

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

As a fer-instance of what the 727 might have had. Still looking.

5 parameter analog Lockheed LAS-109C

Recorded
Pressure altitude, indicated airspeed, magnetic heading, vertical acceleration (load factor) and microphone (radio) keying versus time.


Davall Wire FDR with digital was used on some later models

two pics attached.

707 was 60's era.

Reply-
The poster I found said no wire - tape.

The note I just posted about Calibration I think is important.
We need to know what the error bounds for the data was at the time. I don't know how we can find this. Maybe anecdotal.

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

It may have appeared in the 727 (it was in that first picture of the 707 flight recorder pictures I just posted)

Sundstrand FA-542 Flight Data Recorder (FDR),


The Sundstrand FA-542 Flight Data Recorder (FDR), better known as am aircraft's "Black Box". Surplused from a Boeing 7x7 or other commercial aircraft, the Sundstrand FDR was responsible for continuous logging of critical aircraft flight parameters in case forensic analysis of a crash episode was ever required

[snowmman 3]

National Transportation Safety Board
Bureau of Accident Investigation
Washington, D.C. 20594
Aircraft Accident Report
September 25, 1978
Abstract

About 0901:47, September 25, 1978, Pacific Southwest Airlines, Inc., Flight 182, a Boeing 727-214, and a Gibbs Flite Center, Inc., Cessna 172, collided in midair about 3 nautical miles northeast of Lindbergh Field, San Diego, California
...

Flight 182 was equipped with a Sundstrand FA-542 flight data
recorder (FDR), serial No. 3729. The outer case was intact with mechanical damage to the right side of the rear section.

The entire unit had been subjected to fire and extreme heat.
Examination of the pertinent portion of metal foil recording medium disclosed that its surface was covered completely with heavy crusted deposits. Repeated chemical and ultrasonic cleanings finally removed sufficient deposits to permit the
entire record of altitude, indicated airspeed, and magnetic heading to be seen.

However, the traces containing minute marks, vertical acceleration, and radio transmission indications were not visible over the last 4 min of the flight. This condition created a problem since the minute marks were not available for timing the foil movement precisely, and the lack of radio transmission indications made correlation of the FDR with the CVR more difficult.

A readout was made of the last 4 min of the altitude, indicated airspeed, and magnetic heading traces.


Timing of this readout was done by measuring spacing of the the eight l-min marks visible on the foil and using their average spacing to determine atime interval constant for the last 4 min of the readout.

Flight 182 was equipped with a Fairchild A-100 CVR (cockpit voice recorder...we don't care for Flight 305)

Full report at (5.3MB)
http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR79-05.pdf

[georger 269]

Quote

Quote

Quote

As a fer-instance of what the 727 might have had. Still looking.

5 parameter analog Lockheed LAS-109C

Recorded
Pressure altitude, indicated airspeed, magnetic heading, vertical acceleration (load factor) and microphone (radio) keying versus time.


Davall Wire FDR with digital was used on some later models

two pics attached.

707 was 60's era.

Reply-
The poster I found said no wire - tape.

The note I just posted about Calibration I think is important.
We need to know what the error bounds for the data was at the time. I don't know how we can find this. Maybe anecdotal.

Im to bed... good luck.

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

From another crash. I believe the United Control FA542 may be the same kind device? or a copy??

http://www.sandford.org/gandercrash/investigations/majority_report/html/_1-11.shtml

Flight Recorders

The aircraft was equipped with a Sundstrand AV-557A cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and a United Control FA542 flight data recorder (FDR).

The CVR retains the last 30 minutes of four channels of information, recording them on an eight track reversing one-quarter-inch tape made of Vicalloy that travels at a speed of two and threequarter inches per second.

The FDR scribes measurements of pressure altitude, indicated airspeed, magnetic heading, and vertical acceleration on a 4.9-inch-wide stainless steel foil moving at 0.1 inch per minute. The scribe marks are discrete samples made at one-second intervals, except for the vertical acceleration which is normally recorded 10 times per second. Other continuously marking styli) record one-minute time intervals, times of all radio transmissions, and whether the recorded heading is in the northerly or southerly sector of the compass. The foil length of 200 feet provides for 400 hours of recording on one side of the foil. The unit was last calibrated on 11 November 1982.

Both recorders were recovered from the accident site on the afternoon of the accident and were immediately flown to the Flight Recorder Playback Centre (FRPC) of the National Research Council for readout and analysis.

..

Flight Data Recorder Readout

When the foil was examined under the microscope of the coordinate measuring machine, it was found that the altitude, airspeed, and heading stylus marks were of the normal elongated shape, although there was an irregularity in spacing of the discrete marks which was probably caused by imperfections in the torque applied to the take-up spool. This irregularity caused a small jump in foil movement every three to four seconds of a type that is frequently observed on this type of recorder.

The vertical acceleration stylus marks were substandard. Instead of fine marks from the pyramidpointed stylus 10 times per second, there were only three or four overlapping round indentations between every jump in foil motion, suggesting that the indentations were being made only about once every second.

Because of the irregularities in the operation of the FDR, extraction of reliable data proved difficult. The coordinates of the stylus marks were initially read and converted into engineering units using standard calibrations. The initial data plots were then updated upon receipt of the recorder's last bench calibration report. Several attempts were then made to further refine the data. These attempts included a lengthy and time-consuming effort to recover and plot individual points of airspeed, altitude, and magnetic heading, assuming a one-second interval between stylus marks, thus circumventing the time errors due to fluctuations in the foil speed.

In order to provide some comparative data to check the validity of the recorder data, measurements were also made of the previous take-off from Cologne en route to Gander. As a further check of airspeed data and to determine the approach descent profiles, similar measurements were made of the approach and landing at Gander. The accuracy of the airspeed trace was considered to be better than plus or minus five knots.

Prior to the take-off, measurements were also made of the distance along the foil at which a stylus that was in continuous contact with the foil indicated keying of the radio transmitters. This procedure established correlation of the arbitrary elapsed time of the foil data with the GMT recorded on the ATC tape.

[snowmman 3]

from that same accident investigation at
http://www.sandford.org/...ort/html/_1-11.shtml
This is the United Control FA542 FDR

Note the first graph is the generated data from the tape. So it doesn't really tell us much, but is interesting in terms of format for presenting the data. I doubt there's a standard "way" of presenting the results.

The second photo is showing problems with the tape.
(attached)

The recovered data are illustrated at Figure 1.4. The data plot represents an elapsed time of 1 minute 40 seconds commencing at 1014:33. Measurements were terminated where normal progression of the foil ceased. Subsequent to these points, a large number of stylus marks were evident for each parameter, all at approximately the same distance along the foil. These marks were assumed to have occurred during structural breakup.

[snowmman 3]

I think that's it, Tom.
You can extract what is interesting.
stainless steel tape.
hard to extract data off of.
I guess they didn't use QAR's then (Quick Access Recorder) for easy quick maintenance data (they do today)

accuracy: unknown.
Sundstrand FA-542 most likely. Other versions apparently existed, but it's likely they just recorded the parameters noted in the prior posts.

Pressure altitude,
indicated airspeed,
magnetic heading,
vertical acceleration (load factor) and
microphone (radio) keying versus time.

I suppose there needed to be some compensation applied to the "pressure altitude" data. Don't know the raw formats. of the extracted data, or what device was used to "read" the tape.

But it was analog. I guess the question is: what "device" read the tape again afterwards???

[snowmman 3]

Tom:

Maybe look for a report from the NTSB (FAA?). The NTSB has labs that handle real crash FDR reading. Maybe NTSB was involved in deciphering the FDR.

I don't think anyone else would have had the experience/gear to extract data from the FDR in 1971?

Nowadays they have portable readers and such, so there would be more possibilities. Maybe less back then.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

In my humble clinical opinion, I believe that DB Cooper had a personality disorder. The single most compelling piece of information from the FBI's files, for me, is that no one has come forth to announce a missing family member. It is as if DB Cooper came from no where and returned to no where. No friends, family, co-workers, land lords or neighbors have reported a vanished loved one/associate/tenant who could be a suspect.

Along those lines, Barb Dayton clearly had a personality disorder, and I think the same might be true for the other leading suspects.

That perspective is a line of inquiry I am pursuing, and I am grateful to share what tid-bits I have found with this forum, as meager as some might deem them to be.

Hi Bruce, that is an interesting point (and I have wondered a fair while about whether Cooper might have had a personality disorder of some sort - it "feels" that way to me but I battle to put my finger on why exactly).
I'm struggling though to see the logic of why no-one reporting someone missing implies a personality disorder - can you expand a bit more on your thinking here?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

(which may have been answered somewhere along the line)
does a hijacking require an incident report to be filed with the FAA?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[TomKaye 1]

Great job thanks Snow! Georger and everyone else thanks for the historical info!

Now I will set the gears in motion looking for a metal tape on a reel. Finding the data would be a big break through.

We believe Soderlind revised the drop zone several times so he must have had access to a FDR reading device.

Thanks!

Tom

[377 22]

I too am obsessed with SR 71s. In many ways they exceeded the 1960s moon landing technology in wow factor. They flew briefly for NASA after USAF retirement. Everyone wonders what replaced them in the USAF inventory.

SR 71s at various times have been fitted with all sorts of recon gear. IR line/strip mappers were often used and gave very useful data on terrain, vegatation, etc. The IR detector was supercooled. I worked in IR imaging and you would be amazed at how good it was at spotting mans presence/impact in the wilderness. The planes could usually get far better IR data than the sats due to target proximity.

It was long suspected that USAF IR recon data was given to the feds to find pot farms. The irrigation makes them stand out big time on IR strip maps.

NASA's version of the U2 spyplane has definitely been used to find non permitted contruction in resticted zones on the CA coast. There are legal issues if there is military participation in domestic law enforcement, so if it exists it is covert. NASA isn't military so it can operate a bit more freely.

USN P3 subchaser planes have been used to track drug boats coming up from below the US boder. The DEA has their own P3 "baby AWACS" radar surveillance plane but the smugglers know where they are kept and put out an alert when they take off thus dramatically reducing their effectiveness.

SR 71s were used to map some areas in Alaska immediately after the huge 1964 quake to do damage assessment.

I have spoken at length with two former sled drivers (what SR 71 pilots call themselves). Refueling those beasts in midair took incredible skill. The operation would start dangerously slow in a high angle of attack and change radically during the fueling so that at the end the SR 71 was in afterburner to maintain high AOA flight linked to the special tanker (KC 135Q). They burned an exotic fuel blend , not normal jet fuel, thus requiring a dedicated tanker.

Our embedded journalist draws one personality related conclusion from the fact that Cooper was apparently never reported missing. I think the more likely explanation is simply that he didn't die in the jump.

Wishful thinking? Yeah, I like a happy ending to any skydive story, even a skyjack.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Great job thanks Snow! Georger and everyone else thanks for the historical info!

Now I will set the gears in motion looking for a metal tape on a reel. Finding the data would be a big break through.

We believe Soderlind revised the drop zone several times so he must have had access to a FDR reading device.

Thanks!

Tom

Yes, If you could find out "how" those tapes were read back then, that would be interesting. In the "history of flight data analysis" they talk about when they started using FDR data for maintenence info and it was too cumbersome and so they started using QARs. That led me to think that back in 1971, the number of places that read those old style tapes was probably pretty small.

FAA and NTSB probably. Maybe they worked with the manufacturer though.

The manufacturer would be another source, but companies like Sundstrand got split up and/or reformed (I saw something just recent in the '90s). I couldn't find any historical FDR info at their site.

Long history for Sunstrand here:
http://www.answers.com/topic/sundstrand-corporation


http://www.hamiltonsundstrand.com

On June 10, 1999, Hamilton Standard and the Sundstrand Corp. merged, forming HAMILTON SUNDSTRAND. The company's heritage spans the course of 100 years, tracing its roots to the founding of the Sundstrand Corp. in 1905 and Hamilton Standard in 1919.

Today, Hamilton Sundstrand employs approximately 18,300 people at more than 50 major facilities worldwide and is among the world's largest suppliers of technologically advanced aerospace and industrial products. Headquartered in Windsor Locks, Conn., the company’s revenues reached $6.2 billion in 2008.

Hamilton Sundstrand designs and manufactures aerospace systems for commercial, regional, corporate and military aircraft, and is a major supplier for international space programs.

Hamilton Sundstrand's industrial products serve industries ranging from hydrocarbon, chemical and food processing to construction and mining.

[snowmman 3]

There is a long history of rule changes for FDR's. Typically when they have accidents, and they can't decide why based on the recorded data.

This doc has an interesting tidbit about foil recorder fail rate.
(mechanical analog, so I would expect this).

This report was when, in 1995, the FAA wanted even more parameters. (and lamenting how prior grandfathering had been used to avoid the intent of prior regulations) My prior post had a little flow chart for the state of current regulations.

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/committees/arac/media/ec/EC_FDR_T1.pdf

from page 10

NTSB analyzed accident/incident files from Jan 1983 to Feb 1986 which revealed a high failure rate for metal foil flight recorders. the data revealed that 37 recorders (48 percent) had one or more malfunctioning parameters preceding the accident or incident preventing the recording or readout of pertinent data.


This was part of their analysis for rule changes.