DB Cooper

[JerryThomas 0]

Jo I'm back and you are still a lier. I arived at home at 1150 I'll Be going back on the 25th of this month Ralph if your monitoring I made it home safe it was to late to call you so I,ll call you and the better half in the morning.Things went good guys.However the drop zone was not the columbia river.According to Ralph they hadn't even goten close at the time of the jump. More on that later.Brian Tom Geof Al and the others and I say others because I'm not sure if they would like there names mention on the forum.It was a absolute pleasure to spend the short time we had together. Things went great we had nice weather and got alot done.Georger I have some Info for you do you still want that core sample.I'd rather get you one from one of the washougal tributaries I think it would be more benificial at this point. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/02/national/main4838971.shtml?source=mostpop_story

13-year old spent the night in the woods overnight.
temps dipped into the 20s.
Who would have thought?

Hey Jerry: we already have one virtual wife beater on the forum!

Jerry: Serious question. How does Ralph know when Cooper jumped?
Summarize.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman we know they wern't dynimite sticks. simply road flare's. Sluggo I will have time to finish that site on wenesday.

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman we know they wern't dynimite sticks. simply road flare's. Sluggo I will have time to finish that site on wenesday.

exactly my point.

Jerry. There is nothing you know that we haven't covered.

Actually you don't know they were road flares. railroad flares would be about the same length.

Can you quote the length of 5, 10, and 15 minute road flares?

[JerryThomas 0]

So why ask any questions

[snowmman 3]

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So why ask any questions

I didn't.
You came on and called Jo a liar.
I replied and said you have no new info.

So how does Ralph know where Cooper jumped?

I guess I'm calling you a liar...i.e. you claim to have information.
I believe you have no information that's credible.

[377 22]

Jerry,

If you can, just ignore the provocations. Don't rise to the bait.

I like Snow. Sluggo used to and is willing to come around if Snow changes back to his earlier kinder gentler self.

Sluggo enrolled Snow in an anger management class. Snow beat up the instructor and took over the class. He delivered a very convincing lecture on the benefits of sceptical rage and constructive confrontation.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[airtwardo 7]

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[georger 268]

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Snow

I just put the ohmmeter on the two jaws of my staple remover. Zero ohms.
Kaboom. This is the work of an explosives expert? Aren't they licensed? Was Barb licensed? I wouldn't hire her to wire my caps, delays and explosives. Would you?

377

... as I said we arent dealing with technical
people. And yet they fly and work on planes etc.
That's fine. They now are trying their hands at story telling.

Ever build a boat out of ice?

[JerryThomas 0]

Everyones interest is the same and so is the outcome that we all hope to gain. However there are those that would rather make up stories in order to give themselves a gold star. childish don't you think.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowomman Believe what you like.Please continue to Believe that I have nothing to contribute to this forum I think that is great. So Go Figure.

[377 22]

Funny you shoud mention that. I read an article about a serious WW2 project to build ice ships. They found the wreckage of a prototype in a lake. The plan was to use ammonia compresssors and pipes to keep the hull frozen. They actually built some big concrete ships. There is a wreck of one on a beach near Aptos CA. It is still fairly intact.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Snow, the bird book reference was a cryptic/obscure reference to the plot of of a fiction that is almost, bit not entirely, unrelated to DB Cooper. But it is about as plausible as anything else we have been presented with. Anyway, how common were plastic bound spiral books in 1971? Not very I'd bet.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[nigel99 610]

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Hi Jo,
You said Cooper had both of these books on the plane? So the water damage is apparently from the jump or landing? Any theories on how the books were carried on the jump? Can they be stuffed in a raincoat?

If the raincoat was the kind I think it was - yes, some of the pockets would have been large enough in those days to put these books in - also they are flexible, but do not appear have been bent much at any given time.
=========================

Quote

I thought you only saw Duane reading one book while you knew him (the Norjak book). Did he never read these books?

Your answer lies within the question. No this is not a riddle.
I only saw Duane READ one book while I knew him (the Norjak book). He possessed these books and at one time he may have been interested in them to pass the time while on the plane.

Before I mentioned this - the title on one specific book would have been reason enough for Duane Weber to have put the book in his hands and gone thru it.
The title was associated with a strong memory of his childhood.
=======================

Quote

You must have looked inside the books for a copyright date to get a hint of when they were printed. How much before 1971?
Or are they not printed material? Maybe a journal of some kind.
Still, some dates might be inside. Which?

There are NO copyright dates in these. Yes, they are printed material and the most important one is the smaller book with a gold cover and black binding comb - this one had the picture in it and with the water damage. This one book seems to be much older than the larger book.

The thicker book appears to be a 1960's book...due to some references in it.

Jeez the story of Duane as Cooper grows more far fetched by the minute We now have a guy jumping with books with sentimental value on a hijacking.

So that we can keep track of this all - Duane jumped with
1) A bucket to keep the money
2) The money
3) briefcase
4) Dan Poynter's missing draft of "Parachutist" (it has a distinctive gold cover)
5) Peter Pan's guide to wilderness survival (blue spiral bound edition)
6) A dialysis machine
7) Marilin Monroe
8) Burger King happy meal (brown paper bag)

What Duane didn't know was the missing 35mm SAGE radar caught the following image that ties him to the scene http://images1.fanpop.com/images/photos/2100000/Peter-Pan-and-Pirate-Ship-peter-pan-2106192-799-528.jpg

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[nigel99 610]

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Snow

I just put the ohmmeter on the two jaws of my staple remover. Zero ohms.
Kaboom. This is the work of an explosives expert? Aren't they licensed? Was Barb licensed? I wouldn't hire her to wire my caps, delays and explosives. Would you?

377

... as I said we arent dealing with technical
people. And yet they fly and work on planes etc.
That's fine. They now are trying their hands at story telling.

Ever build a boat out of ice?

Georger your avatar allways reminds me of the million monkeys typing theme - I forget the origins of your avatar, but this will hopefully amuse you. I've seen a couple of versions - this a rip'off of a youtube commentators version

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[snowmman 3]

Can anyone quote the length of 5, 10 and 15 minute road flares?

I had a train of thought here in the past and maybe we can re-explore it.

(edit) nigel99: funny! it got a half-coffee snargle. Not full, but half :)

(edit) road flare sizes aren't as standardized as you would think. Close, but not exactly. A couple of companies now dominate. I'm not sure in 1971. Five minute road flares are fairly uncommon for obvious reasons (road events usually last more than 5 minutes).

Train flares are shorter because they are used for signalling. I went over the signalling conventions with train flares before.

I don't think there's anything we can gain from this line of thought. It just reminded me that it's easy to say "road flares" without being precise about what one is proposing. "road flares" means different things to different people. (for instance: think of 30 minute road flares with the spike on the end!)

I think we have to say "probably" a lot when we describe Cooper's bomb.

If there is more information to remove "probably", let's get it out of the closet.

(edit) p.s. I thought "woman" on my back tattoo avatar. Georger got me thinking maybe I was wrong. I welcome feedback.

[snowmman 3]

Can someone summarize what new info arrived this week?

I'm reviewing and I'm not sure if I have it all.

No. 1 on the list for me was Alan Stone saying there's an active investigation.

Flesh out the list.

I was thinking of another thing. In the past we were presented with scenarios where the magical bag offered rubber band protection of sorts. Whether in the water or not.

I got the feeling this week, that there's been an acceptance of the idea that the bag may not have changed the aging characteristics of the rubber bands..i.e. the bag would not have prolonged degradation as much as, say, complete isolation from oxygen and microorganisms. (for instance, total sand burial)

I thought that was implied in the news articles, but I'm guessing.

How do other people parse this? How come the theories of bag protection and floating log rafts weren't mentioned by Tom Kaye? They always seemed weak. Has Tom dismissed them?

Did Tom Kaye ask the rubber band folks about bag protection? Or is soaking in water, sufficient to cause the rubber band degradation?

Even if we don't know, what are people assuming now? I'm totally confused about this.

It makes me think there really wasn't much info this week, other than the chemicals and metal on the money, and the entry of Alan Stone into the fray.

Another new bit of information, for me, was Jerry's apparent statement that Ralph Himmelsbach monitors this thread. If so, Hi Ralph!

[snowmman 3]

When someone posts, and first thing is calling someone else a liar, when the poster offers no information of their own, I digest that as a personal attack.

Additionally, I've been told Jerry has harassed Jo, more than warranted, in the past.

I believe my response to him was appropriate, as a result.

If I am wrong, I'm sure I'll be corrected.
Jo could be dead this year. Hell we all could.
I'd hate myself if I stood by and watched unnecessary harassment.

Am I harassing Jerry? Yes, based on my perceptions of his actions.
Can he take it? Don't know.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

I can try for a summary. I was working all last week, so I had something like 400 posts to read to catch up.

Tom and friends had a good time fishing both in the river and in the FBI vault.

Jerry believes the exit point is very different from what Sluggo calculated, but hasn't provided an exact location or his reasoning for it. Snowmman pointed out the total lack of proof for the flight path. I believe it is based on the V-23 airway, but we have no proof the plane was on course.

Barb is not Cooper. there are way too many holes in the story. Jumping off the top step, and a staple remover as a switch both made me laugh.

McCoy is not Cooper. Again, way too many holes.
Orange1 - I read it as if McCoy was Cooper, he would have known how to jump from a 727 because he had already done it once. Since he didn't know how to jump from a 727, he couldn't be Cooper.

There probably wasn't a Continental flight behind Flight 305. Enroute at 14k is very unlikely, and pireps of winds aloft are unlikely. Georger is looking into it.

377- The account (McCoy book) of barely being able to fly the plane at 14k and the tailwind part was a joke. Planes fly based on airspeed. Period. Winds affect groundspeed, but that only affects flight times, fuel consumption, eta's to checkpoints and that sort of thing. NOT how the plane flies or handles. And without ground reference (visual or radio beacons) you can't tell what winds are doing. The Stardust Crash in South America was because of unexpected headwinds.
Winds aloft can be calculated fairly easily with trig. Ground track based on the VOR, ground speed from the DME. Airspeed and airplane heading. 2 sides (including length) of a triangle. The third side would be wind heading and speed. But I've never heard of it being reported to ATC as a pirep (pilot report).
The gear may change, but my DZ flies a 1957 182 (narrow body, straight tail).

Jo likes Snowmman, and not Georger or Jerry. Georger and Snowmman are fighting again, and Snow is picking a fight with Jerry. Are we in junior high again?
Quade is being generous and not clamping down on borderline PAs (Thanks Quade
377 likes everyone and got a jump in.

SafecrackPLF showed back up again, and reminded us that he had done float tests and watershed computations that everyone forgot or was ignoring.

I'm probably missing something, but that's most if it. Man, what a week!

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[snowmman 3]

good summary wolfriverjoe. There are a couple other things, maybe someone else can add.

wolf: I posted data from a live flight recently (from that live flight tracking website)..They don't stay high very long when going from KSEA to KPDX. A lot of time descending.

(edit) this was a small jet. Unclear weather. So it's just a thought stimulus.

They're not using V23 for the short hop (now in 2009), but doesn't it show something about descending into PDX which the Continental flight claimed to do? (edit) I just realized we don't know where Continental was coming from.

Maybe what you meant was being steady at 14,000 ft for a long time was unlikely..i.e. why did he call out 14,000 feet? He probably transitioned thru a lot of altitudes, with wind changing thru the transitions?

I'm not a pilot, so I'm belaboring the point, to make sure I understand...maybe you can reiterate, wolf?

(edit) Note this guy went to 19k feet fast, Maybe Continental went to 14k instead of 19k, stayed there a little longer since it didn't have to descend as far. I guess we don't know if Continental took off from KSEA. Maybe like you suggest, it was enroute from somewhere else, in which case it would definitely be higher (maybe even a J airway?)

prior post:

here's the flight tracking info for a flight from Seatac to PDX just recently: 2/10/09.
Route wasn't V-23?
28 minutes. Interesting he only went to 19000. Spent most of the flight descending? looks like the log is missing 1 or 2 minutes at the start.

Time Ground speed
Pacific TZ Latitude Longitude kts Altitude (feet)
11:48AM 47.35 -122.32 218 5900 level
11:49AM 47.29 -122.33 223 9300 climbing
11:50AM 47.20 -122.33 258 11900 climbing
11:51AM 47.10 -122.33 323 16200 climbing
11:52AM 47.00 -122.33 353 19000 climbing
11:53AM 46.89 -122.33 367 19000 level
11:54AM 46.79 -122.34 373 19000 level
11:55AM 46.69 -122.35 373 19000 level
11:56AM 46.58 -122.36 373 19000 level
11:57AM 46.48 -122.37 373 19000 level
11:58AM 46.38 -122.38 373 18600 descending
11:59AM 46.28 -122.39 361 16700 descending
12:00PM 46.20 -122.40 341 14600 descending
12:01PM 46.12 -122.41 329 12400 descending
12:02PM 46.04 -122.44 312 10300 descending
12:03PM 45.99 -122.52 273 9100 descending
12:04PM 45.94 -122.59 259 7600 descending
12:05PM 45.90 -122.66 246 6100 descending
12:06PM 45.86 -122.72 228 5000 descending
12:07PM 45.83 -122.77 200 4300 descending
12:08PM 45.79 -122.80 175 3000 descending
12:09PM 45.75 -122.81 164 3000 level
12:10PM 45.70 -122.83 164 2500 descending
12:11PM 45.66 -122.79 163 2500 level
12:12PM 45.64 -122.74 149 1900 descending
12:13PM 45.62 -122.69 149 1100 descending
12:14PM 45.60 -122.64 149 800 descending
12:15PM 45.58 -122.59 149
12:16PM 45.56 -122.55 149
12:17PM 45.54 -122.50 149

another example 737 KSEA to KPDX is here
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASA9003/history/20090208/0356Z/KSEA/KPDX/tracklog

looks like this path might be the more standard KSEA to KPDX flight path nowadays?

more KSEA to KPDX examples here:
http://flightaware.com/live/findflight_route.rvt?origin=ksea&destination=kpdx

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Its a fuel thing. Turbines use incredible amounts of fuel at low level. They climb as high as they can, then descend. Even short times at higher altitudes use less fuel overall (including climb) than cruising at lower alts. Turbojets (straight jet) are worse than Turbofans, but it still applies.
The best example I have (I only fly piston singles, so none of this is practical experience) is the old Lear 25 (original, turbojet Lear). They were still using them a few years ago (might still be) to fly cancelled checks between banks. Even for a few hundred mile flight, they would climb to 41k. Climb straight up, fly at altitude for 100 miles (about 15 min or less) and descend.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[snowmman 3]

(edit) Thanks wolf, for the post above.

Thinking about evidence around winds.

There's this factoid about Himmelbach being in a Reserve search and rescue chopper that night, but not being able to catch up with 305.

Then there's the story that H. didn't ride the chopper till the next day.

Have we sorted out which is true, and whether a chopper really went up that night?

We know when the HC-130 went up and where (much further south). We know about the other planes and intercepts or lack of them.

What kind of winds can a Huey fly in?
And what alititude would the helicopter have been at?

Jo has said there were 2 FBI agents on a Huey that night.
Lt. Col. Gale Goyins and Maj. William Gottlieb were likely the Oregon Army National Guard pilots on the chopper.

Can anyone add to this or correct?

(edit) picture of the cockpit view from Goyin's National Guard Huey, of Mt. Jefferson during a search. Gives you a feel for how you have to worry about the volcanoes in the area when flying!! I posted this before.

(edit) max crosswind spec for the current UH-1Y Venom, replacement helo for the legacy UH-1N, is 65 km/h = 35 knots

I can't imagine that the earlier UH-1 could handle more?
If a heli went up, doesn't that give us an upper limit on wind speed?

(edit) reading stories about heli pilots and winds gusting to 50 knots. Not sure what helis consider "too windy to fly".

[snowmman 3]

reposting to rejiggle our collective consciousness. If this was answered or resolved, please reply.

1996: first news saying Himmelsbach/helicopter.

The earliest newspaper reference to Himmelsbach supposedly trailing 305 in a helicopter, that I can find, is in 1996.

More recent article says he followed an airliner over the route the next night in an army helicopter, as part of the search? Maybe that's the truth and got turned into him following during the hijack? It makes more sense, because I don't see how he and Mayfield had a phone conversation if H. was in a helicopter that night?

DB COOPER LEGEND STILL UP IN AIR 25 YEARS AFTER LEAP, HIJACKER...
Rocky Mountain News - NewsBank - Nov 24, 1996
There was also an Air National Guard helicopter carrying FBI agent Ralph Himmelsbach, frantically trying to keep up with the 727. ...

DB Cooper's fate unknown; legend thrives Hijacker parachuted from...
Kansas City Star - NewsBank - Dec 2, 1996
There was also an Air National Guard helicopter, which carried FBI agent Ralph Himmelsbach and tried to keep up with the 727. The chopper was too slow. ...

One giant leap into infamy 25 years ago, a hijacker known as DB...
Fort Worth Star-Telegram - NewsBank - Nov 28, 1996
There was also an Air National Guard helicopter, carrying FBI agent Ralph Himmelsbach and frantically trying to keep up with the 727. ...

DB Cooper expert doubts latest claims.
The Columbian - AccessMyLibrary.com - Oct 27, 2007
Oct. 27--Ralph Himmelsbach has heard every DB Cooper story there is to be ... and the next night followed an airliner over the route in an army helicopter. ...

[snowmman 3]

Went back to the Norjak book. This time, a close read gives me a better feel for what happened with the heli.

It does confirm two FBI agents in a heli on 11/24/71 like Jo said.
taking off from PDX (page 47). However it also says (page 47) they only had 30 minutes of flying time.

They apparently were in the air when the jet came close to Portland, because they debated what would happen if the bomb blew up the plane (page 47), raining debris.

When the chopper went back to PDX, Flight 305 was 60 miles south of them.

on page 51, it then says

"What do you think, Ralph? Did he make it" I was back at Portland International Aiport now, after the futile chase in the chopper.


This seems to imply that Ralph was in the chopper. But why did the prior reference just say "two FBI agents". Maybe Ralph was not in the chopper.

In any case. A chopper was in the air on 11/24/71.

Himmelsbach definitely flew his own plane the next day. (page 57)

H. takes off at 9 A.M. in his Taylorcraft (didn't have the Beech yet).
to search.

Because of the weather, he was only able to fly for 2-1/2 hours.

The helis were flying over the week after 11/24/71 (separate accounts in Norjak), with the helis from different sources (we've touched on this a little before).

But if he was flying his plane 11/25/71, it sounds unlikely that H. was in a heli on 11/25/71.

Maybe H. was not in a heli either 11/24/71 or 11/25/71. Don't know.

[georger 268]

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Hi Jo,
You said Cooper had both of these books on the plane? So the water damage is apparently from the jump or landing? Any theories on how the books were carried on the jump? Can they be stuffed in a raincoat?

If the raincoat was the kind I think it was - yes, some of the pockets would have been large enough in those days to put these books in - also they are flexible, but do not appear have been bent much at any given time.
=========================

Quote

I thought you only saw Duane reading one book while you knew him (the Norjak book). Did he never read these books?

Your answer lies within the question. No this is not a riddle.
I only saw Duane READ one book while I knew him (the Norjak book). He possessed these books and at one time he may have been interested in them to pass the time while on the plane.

Before I mentioned this - the title on one specific book would have been reason enough for Duane Weber to have put the book in his hands and gone thru it.
The title was associated with a strong memory of his childhood.
=======================

Quote

You must have looked inside the books for a copyright date to get a hint of when they were printed. How much before 1971?
Or are they not printed material? Maybe a journal of some kind.
Still, some dates might be inside. Which?

There are NO copyright dates in these. Yes, they are printed material and the most important one is the smaller book with a gold cover and black binding comb - this one had the picture in it and with the water damage. This one book seems to be much older than the larger book.

The thicker book appears to be a 1960's book...due to some references in it.

Jeez the story of Duane as Cooper grows more far fetched by the minute We now have a guy jumping with books with sentimental value on a hijacking.

So that we can keep track of this all - Duane jumped with
1) A bucket to keep the money
2) The money
3) briefcase
4) Dan Poynter's missing draft of "Parachutist" (it has a distinctive gold cover)
5) Peter Pan's guide to wilderness survival (blue spiral bound edition)
6) A dialysis machine
7) Marilin Monroe
8) Burger King happy meal (brown paper bag)

What Duane didn't know was the missing 35mm SAGE radar caught the following image that ties him to the scene [url]ht

Reply - dont Happy Meals come from McDonalds?
Fact is they brought on meals at SEA.
Pooper asked for meals for the crew. There's a comment in the transcript about maps having been brought on 'with the meals'.

Did Pooper get one of those meals? Major gap in our
knowledge!

Did he jump on a full or empty stomach?

What was in those meals?

Did Duane like rutabagas and horsraddish (amoracia rusticana)? Bet he did. Does Jo like borscht?