DB Cooper

[377 22]

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"But like I said, a lot of things went wrong that day that I didn't expect. During our climb out of San Francisco, the empty plane lifted up with such ease and pitch - and I still don't understand it now- but somehow it must have triggered the preset altimeter and Patterson's chute suddenly pops open in the plane. Maybe at thirty-five hundred feet. I don't know. It almost knocked one of the stewardesses out of her seat. Anway, I tried to repack it by stuffing it back in the sleeve, but I was ripping my fingernails until they cracked and bled, and by that time it was getting too late anyway. I had no choice. I had to use of the Perry Stevens chutes as a backup because of the load I had to jump with. It didn't look as though the seal had been broken, so I grabbed one and thought, 'What the heck. Maybe the FBI hadn't had time to bug all four of them. Maybe none of them' The chute Richard McCoy was about to jump with was number 171, and it was bugged just like the others.

Sounds like McCoy experienced a Sentinel AAD activation. Puzzling that it could happen on ascent, I'll ask Nitrochute to comment as he was employed by the mfr. Perhaps cabin pressurization went from an altitude above 1500 ft to below 1500 ft or whatever the trigger altitude was. McCoy talks about having preset the "altimeter" (I thing they meant AAD, early ones incorporated a visual altimeter) to go off at 3500 ft in an earlier National Guard helo flight. I guess he could fool with the baro calibration knob used to zero out the AAD on the ground and trick it to activate higher than its normal preset trigger point. Nitrochute, your comments?

The description of trying to stuff the reserve back into a sleeve is wrong, reserves don't have sleeves. They are misdescribing a container as a sleeve most likely.

Being a radio nut I am curious what kind of transmitters the FBI had Perry put into the chutes and what turned them on. If they were USAF bailout beacons like the URT 21 or URT 33, they would have to be turned on when packed as the sport rigs don't have the right hardware to activate them on chute deployment. Four turned on beacons on the military distress frequency of 243.0 Mhz would raise quite a fuss as the flight progressed. Civilian aircraft are not equipped with UHF AM radios and would not hear the transmitters. If they were some sort of FBI bugging transmitter those were usually VHF FM and on frequencies outside the coverage of both civilian and military aircraft.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Another indicator that suggests McCoy was not Cooper is his fear of getting a tail strike and being knocked out. That's why he carried a reserve with an AAD. There is no indication that Cooper struck any aircraft structure on exit. If McCoy were Cooper he wouldn't have taken all those unnecessary precautions. Cooper knew you could just jump and be clear of the 727.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

The crazy wife shit continues even after he escapes from prison. She helped the escape. She actually was dating an FBI agent (supposedly) while he was in prison, and may have actually dropped the dime on him that led to his escape buddy's capture (Melvin Dale Walker) and his death. But definitely part of the escape. She ripped off some of their robbery money too, evidently?

She definitely was a huge part of what drove him to do the hijack. I'm amazed she wasn't charged. She was totally all about money. And sounded kind of looney. She was cold and calculating. Seems to me they let her slide cause she was the wife with two kids. (hell they got their man, who cares about her anyhow! (that was the '70s maybe still is))

It's interesting that in the web forums, there's this mythology around McCoy, that's just wrong. He's kind of a pathetic creature.
Not some "expert" way of doing things.

Actually every character in the book has some kind of pathos. All the FBI agents. Everyone.

It's like you read it and hope we've advanced as people since then. I don't know if we have!

The attempt to connect McCoy to Cooper by the agents is pretty pathetic. About as bad as every typical Cooper nutbag thinking.

It's especially disturbing reading all the aggrandization by the people involved in "justice" and realizing that Heady (another jumping hijacker) got out in 10 years. (if I remember correctly)

McCoy is a sad case. Nothing to feel proud about there.
A main contributing cause never got charged.

McCoy confessed. (well they found everything so it didn't matter really) I think his case may have been handled badly. Needed a better lawyer. Didn't have the fine upstanding father to speak up for him.

Once McCoy went to jail, yeah he got worse. But that's a different story. McCoy got a 45 year sentence. Winder was McCoy's court-appointed attorney. He eventually became a judge.

No pity for him there, or for him and the hijack. But the whole thing leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Vietnam messed him up a bit.

[snowmman 3]

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Another indicator that suggests McCoy was not Cooper is his fear of getting a tail strike and being knocked out. That's why he carried a reserve with an AAD. There is no indication that Cooper struck any aircraft structure on exit. If McCoy were Cooper he wouldn't have taken all those unnecessary precautions. Cooper knew you could just jump and be clear of the 727.

377

Good point 377.
The FBI guys go thru all sorts of hoops saying that McCoy used knowledge from the Cooper case, and I forget what bogus examples they used, they weren't from a jumper's perspective.
(I think the FBI came to their senses eventually about McCoy not being Cooper, but two agents were definitely pushing the McCoy-Cooper possibility hard for a time)

But you're right, a jumper's perspective would focus on stuff like how the jump is done, as major first order.

It's really funny that the author goes on and on saying "his first freefall was Oct '71 and Cooper was Nov '71...hmm...funny coincidence!"

They caught McCoy thorough no skill of their own.

It's laughable we got a journalist here who's all impressed with the FBI guys associated with the McCoy case. Dumb.

Like I said, I don't think the FBI ever had a hard hijack case. They were all easy. Except for Cooper.

[snowmman 3]

I was confused by this, but this will impress the jumpers a little I guess.

McCoy appears to have really injured his ankle in a skiing accident before the hijack and had a cast on it. I don't know if that meant there was a break or it was sprained or what.

He apparently cut the cast off 2 days before the hijack.

That's why when he landed, he talked about absorbing most of the shock on one leg. His other leg was still sore, before he landed.

I guess he had a better chute than Cooper. (sport chute). He asked for Commanders. Not sure what kind of rig he used for a main (since he brought his own). But maybe a Commander also (would be right for the era?)

[snowmman 3]

377 confessed, under extreme interrogation techniques:

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WOW! Perry Stevens taught me how to skydive.

As your lawyer, I advise you to not make any more confessions until you understand your rights.

Now tell the court how you were beaten by posters to a web forum, and that's why you did it.

(edit) Your story of starting out was great, 377. Thanks for sharing it.

(edit)
377 said:
"The description of trying to stuff the reserve back into a sleeve is wrong, reserves don't have sleeves. They are misdescribing a container as a sleeve most likely."

Yeah it's weird, he described that second chute as a "small sport chute" but that doesn't make sense, he wouldn't bring a 2nd main to act as a reserve. It's probably not decipherable about what that borrowed container/canopy was (A guy's name is provided though..I mean isn't it weird that he borrowed another guy's rig of some kind, for the hijack along with his own as main. (because he wanted the automatic deployment device)

McCoy sure sounds stupid doesn't he. It's like he was superfocused on a lot of stuff, him and his wife convincing themselves they were smart, when they were obviously REALLY DUMB.

Then after the arrest, the FBI focuses on maintaining the mythology that he was REALLY SMART/GOOD.

[377 22]

Commander undoubtedly refers to the Pioneer Paracommander sport canopy which could be packed into any main container that had enough volume. Squares were around in 71 but were not mature and McCoy had probably never jumped one. Paracommanders were called PCs in the days before personal computers. PCs were very maneuverable compared to surplus round canopies and had decent forward drive. The only downside was a higher malfunction rate, but it was not a lot higher.

If a hijacker specified a "Commander" it was highly likely that he knew something about skydiving.

The mention of McCoy's North Star altimeter brought back memories. I collect skydiving altimeters and have two North Star models. I still jump them once in a while. They had a stupid design error and had only three screw mount holes 90 degrees apart. If you used suspension line loops to tie your altimeter to a mount (common) you had to improvise a forth connection point.

Didn't McCoys wife sue some publisher and win a settlement? Maybe all that talk about her being an accomplice couldn't be proven and she had a good slander/defamation case.

Disparate justice (unequal punishment for equal crimes) literally makes me sick. That one kid from a "good family" gets a light sentence for the same crime that they gave McCoy 45 years for. McCoy probably needed a better lawyer. If you are a criminal defendant you might not want to pick a lawyer who is angling for a judicial appointment.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

***Yeah it's weird, he described that second chute as a "small sport chute" but that doesn't make sense, he wouldn't bring a 2nd main to act as a reserve. It's probably not decipherable about what that borrowed container/canopy was (A guy's name is provided though..I mean isn't it weird that he borrowed another guy's rig of some kind, for the hijack along with his own as main. (because he wanted the automatic deployment device)

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If it had an AAD it was 99.99% certain to be a reserve. Almost nobody had them on mains during the time of the hijack.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

Good feedback 377.

I was thinking about the rig McCoy borrowed from Larry Patterson that was on the plane (from his luggage) and deployed.

I wonder if he gathered it up and stuffed it in the duffel bag he threw out. They probably found that duffel anyhow (have to check) since one of the chutes with beacons was either in the bag or also chucked out? (forget right now the sequence/timing of those events)

In any case, can you imagine if there was something stupid that was easily traceable to Larry Patterson?

I mean the number of deployment devices that were manufactured/sold back then must have been small. The FBI would have been easily able to find McCoy by tracking back from that rig.

McCoy was a fucking joke compared to Cooper. Just because he used more jumping knowledge in an obvious way, we're supposed to think he showed how an expert would do it? He showed how a novice would do it. Sure he had a lot of balls, and obviously something wasn't right in his head. But there's a lot of McCoy mythology I think when brainstorming about Cooper.

[377 22]

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McCoy sure sounds stupid doesn't he. It's like he was superfocused on a lot of stuff, him and his wife convincing themselves they were smart, when they were obviously REALLY DUMB.

The book kinda makes him sound dumb, but forget the book at look at a few facts that might suggest otherwise.

McCoy was a military helicopter pilot. Few of them are stone dumb. It is hard to get selected for flight training and flying a helicopter in real or simulated combat conditions is not something a dumb person could do well. If he got his wings, and he did, then I don't put him in the dumb box.

Judgment is another matter, starting with his choice of a spouse... but if you use that as a criteria and knew my ex, you'd think I was dumb too.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

377 said: "Didn't McCoys wife sue some publisher and win a settlement? Maybe all that talk about her being an accomplice couldn't be proven and she had a good slander/defamation case. "

There's an amazing amount of apparent first hand testimony from the wife. She typed up stuff for McCoy for the hijack.
She said they had a lot of notes. She burned them.

She went on and on about how anyone could have done the hijack, it was so simple, after they did all the notes.

That she got money from a lawsuit, shit it just makes it all worse. (it's unclear if they recovered the money that the accomplice says she ripped off from them post prison escape)

She may not be guilty. But if not, I really can't understand why she said all that stuff. Maybe there was nothing except what she said.

McCoy wouldn't testify against her. That's what probably saved her. McCoy gets dead. She gets off. No one else to testify or want to deal on her.

(edit) 377 continued his Cooper confession:
"Judgment is another matter, starting with his choice of a spouse... but if you use that as a criteria and knew my ex, you'd think I was dumb too. "

I told you, no more confessions on why you hijacked 305. They've got this little room bugged.

[377 22]

Patterson's reserve canopy had a serial number. Riggers record those numbers. It would have been traceable even without the AAD.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

McCoy's wife sounds really interesting. Wonder if she is still single?

JUST KIDDING.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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McCoy's wife sounds really interesting. Wonder if she is still single?

JUST KIDDING.

377

That's really funny. I'm picturing skydiver humor

Hot Babe at DZ: "My husband just got sentenced for hijacking. 45 years."

Skydiver: "Oh, so you're available?"

(edit) I wonder if the book Karen? McCoy was original planning on writing, fell through because it was obviously going to sound like the McCoy thing was more than just Richard, and it would sound like bragging. Maybe that's why this book focused on a possible Cooper connection.

If it focused purely on McCoy, it makes you start thinking about how screwed up the whole case was. The Cooper angle kind of throws your brain off.

But the author did a good job of getting lots of detail, apparently accurate, in the book. He credits Calame, the FBI agent with research. Calame, while sounding stodgy (he headed up the SLC office in 1971) and a product of the Hoover version of the FBI, does sound like a decent guy. I think Calame was probably a superb agent.

[377 22]

Good one Snow!

There is some twisted DZ joke somewhere that goes like:

She's really not your wife, just your turn.

There was a lot of "recycling" of DZ mates back in the day. Any guy who was jumping in the 70s who denies that is still married and lying.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

377 said:
"That one kid from a "good family" gets a light sentence for the same crime that they gave McCoy 45 years for."

Yeah they both had guns. I thought Heady terrorized the crew more than McCoy did. (forget the details). McCoy's grenade was fake.

McCoy read a statement where he tried to say, that in his plans, he thought about minimizing the impact on everyone. blah, blah, blah, the usual stuff from a guy that got caught.

I think the main thing I got is no one really knew McCoy and we still don't. He apparently did like the adrenaline rush. he did a lot of stuff in Vietnam that was high-voltage as a helicopter pilot.

We still don't really understand McCoy, yet we KNOW Cooper was an ADD engineer.

We just don't have a clue about who Cooper might have been.
That's the only truth about Cooper.

[377 22]

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We just don't have a clue about who Cooper might have been.

Prior to your McCoy book posts I thought McCoy might have been Cooper and had a well engineered fake alibi, but no more. McCoy and Cooper were two different people.

What about the tie DNA? If it is a good sample and really did come from Cooper then they do know who Cooper was, genetically. They just don't have a name to match the gene sequence.

I wonder what makes the FBI so sure it is Cooper's DNA?

Cold cases get solved all the time through DNA. Has the tie DNA been run against all registries that the feds have access to?

I know this DNA stuff may bring Jo out of the woodwork raising the issue of the lost Cooper cigarette butts. I wonder if they were examined for prints or DNA, none was found and they were discarded or whether somehow they were lost without having ever been tested.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

In the book, the author goes a long way to trying to find out about the tie and clip, because evidently information about it was buried by the Reno office. (it was up in Seattle?, but pictures/info were apparently controlled)

The author makes it sound like the FBI agents just didn't remember the tie, and that it was referred to, but no one remembered and no picture was available.

When you read between the lines, it's obvious the FBI agents were holding back, I think...i.e. they didn't want to let info out about the tie, because they could use it to ask potential Coopers "what did you leave behind"

Next is one new piece of info that may or may not be true.

In the book, it says that Tina watched Cooper take off the tie and loosen his collar.

I caught that because it's different than the impression I got, of Cooper taking if off maybe while rigging up.

It's not clear when Cooper took off the tie, I think. He may have been uncomfortable with the tie and collar. It might indicate he was not a regular tie wearer, and that it was part of a costume?

This detail about whether Tina saw him take off the tie and loosen the collar, and when it happened, would seem to be important. Maybe it's nothing, maybe not true, though.

Oh in terms of the agents "covering up" info about evidence gathered or not gathered: The author also talked about how quickly the plane was turned over to Northwest..They didn't really spend a lot of time processing it. I think just one day? I can check again.

(edit) This seems inconsistent because I think Ckret said the seats were removed and sent to FBI headquarters or something like that for processing? I forget.

They talked about how some agents thought the magazines weren't processed properly. The author says Cooper was seen reading the magazines while they were circling Seattle, but unclear if that's true based on what Ckret said.

They said the prints found were unusable (which they expected) as Ckret said. They didn't mention getting prints off the magazines, although I think maybe the FBI guys were holding back, thinking maybe they did get something off the magazines.

Ckret has said no one saw Cooper reading the magazines. So there's inconsistent information.

But the whole question of a "too fast" processing of the 727, because Northwest wanted it back is a good one.

They started dusting right away when agents got on the plane.
The author also talks about how some people joked about the skill level of the Reno "crime lab"

So: processing of the plane could have been poor for a variety of reasons.

[377 22]

I have seen two episodes of CSI so I know PLENTY about crime scene processing . I wonder how long was "enough" for effective processing of the 727 crime scene? I really have no idea but I am 100% positive that the CSI folks would have had Cooper locked up in a week. Yes, they really are THAT GOOD! I don't know why the FBI can't do half as well.

If I were the SAC we would have held the 727 for weeks and done a LOT of live jump testing, to hell with expensive sleds. My buddies would be sleds for free if it earned them a jet jump. We'd try jumps over all possible exit points and repeat them several times to get consistent data. Let the airline scream, they can file a case in the US Claims Court in DC if they don't like it.

I'd return the 727 when I got tired of jump testing. Then off on a long junket to SE Asia to look for Air America 727 jump connections. That could take months. One night in Bangkok? Hell no, thirty at least!

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Guru312 0]

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There is some twisted DZ joke somewhere that goes like:

She's really not your wife, just your turn.

There was a lot of "recycling" of DZ mates back in the day

When I was a DZO we had a very cute and sexy woman who most of "dated" doing manifesting and general help on the DZ.

We got her a T-shirt that said: "Staff Only"

Talk about the old days...

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[377 22]

Yeah Guru, DZO: Peasant's wages, King's bounty.

It all balanced out, right?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

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WOW! Perry Stevens taught me how to skydive. ...........

What a great post

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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Another indicator that suggests McCoy was not Cooper is his fear of getting a tail strike and being knocked out. That's why he carried a reserve with an AAD. There is no indication that Cooper struck any aircraft structure on exit. If McCoy were Cooper he wouldn't have taken all those unnecessary precautions. Cooper knew you could just jump and be clear of the 727.

377

OR Cooper didn't know enough about jumping to even think about something like a tail strike?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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We just don't have a clue about who Cooper might have been.

Prior to your McCoy book posts I thought McCoy might have been Cooper and had a well engineered fake alibi, but no more. McCoy and Cooper were two different people.

What about the tie DNA? If it is a good sample and really did come from Cooper then they do know who Cooper was, genetically. They just don't have a name to match the gene sequence.

I wonder what makes the FBI so sure it is Cooper's DNA?

Cold cases get solved all the time through DNA. Has the tie DNA been run against all registries that the feds have access to?

I know this DNA stuff may bring Jo out of the woodwork raising the issue of the lost Cooper cigarette butts. I wonder if they were examined for prints or DNA, none was found and they were discarded or whether somehow they were lost without having ever been tested.

377

I seem to recall Carr said they didn't have the manpower/money available to run through the DNA database on a case like this? If I am remembering wrong, someone please correct me.

No-one would have been collecting for DNA in 1971 - the cold cases that have been solved via DNA are "lucky" in that they still have evidence they can extract DNA from. Fingerprints are a different story of course.

bwt 377 I agree with you entirely - Cooper's DNA is there, just not matched. All the talk about "compromising" DNA is not valid for this discussion from what i understand - if someone's not there, they're not there. I seem to rcall Ckret said something about the possibility of a false positive using one type of DNA testing though.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

377:

I was just thinking of way back when you were talking about what looked like "rust" stains on the money and we were musing about cadmium plated hardware etc.

The news last night,.....I hope everyone saw the video, read the articles For easier access it's here at youtube (not sure why it glitches at the start)..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFkhUbs4bfA&feature=channel_page

Funny how they think it's important to kiss FBI ass at the beginning (talking about what people did in 1971-1980)
Sounds like they're worried about offending Himmelsbach?
Or deferring to Ckret so that feathers don't get ruffled at FBI?
It was just funny. I guess stuff like that is the grease that gets Tom inside the vault. Whatever works!

But here's my thought. They mentioned metal. And the metallurgist is there. Alan Stone. He's great casting too. He's a Cooper look-alike!

What if the metal can be traced to the rig! I doubt it but it's weird that we get one article talking about chemicals on the money, and another talking about metal on the money.

Maybe both?

the two articles were: (both new yesterday night as I posted before)
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2009/03/amateur_detectives_fish_for_db.html
http://www.nwcn.com/statenews/washington/stories/NW_030509WAB-db-cooper-tale-KC.9602434.html